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Theories about slow RP server raid progression


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#21 Flavahbeast

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 09:45 PM

My impression of RP servers is that everyone speaks in tongues 100% of the time and that this impedes raid progress.

This is a common misperception which I should get out of the way quickly. RP servers use Vent, /p and /g the same way any other server uses them. It's considered obnoxious to remain in character in /p and /g. Some RP server raid guilds will do RP writeups in their boss kill notes, but that's about it. (These can be pretty cool - my old guild leader did a great one for our Twin Emps kill.)

This isn't true of all RP guilds, though - when I was in Shadowclan going OOC in groups and guild chat was completely prohibited, and voice chat was taboo too. The only acceptable places to go out of character were in tells and on the forums

#22 Copernicus

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 09:45 PM

RP servers might also feature smaller guilds and higher guild loyalty. People choose an RP server for a reason, and if that reason is to join a closely-knit group of friends, then the recruitment pool is going to be much smaller than the averafe server. Just, in general, I'd think that the average person on an RP server has a higher sense of guild loyalty than the typical group. If their 10-20 man guild regurally holds guild RP events, then they would find it harder to jump ship to the group that is there to raid MC.

#23 Zeza

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 09:49 PM

I'm going to have to agree with Cathela - many of us rolled on RP servers in an attempt to avoid the leet-speak. Personally, I don't arr-pee but I respect the choice of those who do.

To echo other above posts, many who play want to stay in their small 'friends-and-family' guilds. This leads to the necessity of guild alliances, which can be trouble. The Rugged Individualism™ that many exhibit also lead folks to think 'Oh, we can do this our own way', effectively constricting an already small raiding pool on RP servers. (Go Horde!)

#24 Zeza

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 09:52 PM

This isn't true of all RP guilds, though - when I was in Shadowclan going OOC in groups and guild chat was completely prohibited, and voice chat was taboo too. The only acceptable places to go out of character were in tells and on the forums

At what point does this get intractable? I was able to captain a raid through MC, but it took all of my available macros just for MC, ZG and Onyxia - I was at a loss on how to effectively communicate via text (In-character or not) for BWL content.

#25 Flavahbeast

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 09:54 PM

I should mention that Shadowclan did really well on Mordred despite our lack of voice chat. When I played we got a good chunk of the clan up to master level 8. The master level fights aren't terribly difficult by WoW raiding standards, but it was impressive compared to what most Mordred guilds could do

This isn't true of all RP guilds, though - when I was in Shadowclan going OOC in groups and guild chat was completely prohibited, and voice chat was taboo too. The only acceptable places to go out of character were in tells and on the forums

At what point does this get intractable? I was able to captain a raid through MC, but it took all of my available macros just for MC, ZG and Onyxia - I was at a loss on how to effectively communicate via text (In-character or not) for BWL content.

DAoC raiding was, to a large extent, much easier than WoW raiding, and it shows - I don't think the WoW shadowclan branch has done much beyond ZG and teaming up with other guilds for MC, but who knows what the expansion will bring

what Shadowclan really needs is another big free for all pvp MMOG like the original UO or DAoC Mordred, right now all the old members are split up between a dozen small branches, but if a really suitable game came along I'm sure you'd see a huge SC horde again

#26 Cord

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 09:56 PM

In the case of Cenarion Circle, Horde-side, a lot of people had no desire at all to learn how to play, as lame as that sounds. Before you joined DFP Blackpatch, it was painful to tell someone that they could do more damage if the specced differently. Not a demand, just a suggestion would cause people to flip out. The big thing to me was that people wouldn't spec or gear in a way to benefit themselves and wouldn't even except constructive criticism.

Of course, Cenarion Circle is the compost heap of WoW servers.

here is some awareness. If you dont like it then dont read it. It doesnt effecct you so why care,...right? RIGHT?


#27 Eej

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 10:04 PM

My impression of RP servers is that everyone speaks in tongues 100% of the time and that this impedes raid progress.

This is a common misperception which I should get out of the way quickly. RP servers use Vent, /p and /g the same way any other server uses them. It's considered obnoxious to remain in character in /p and /g. Some RP server raid guilds will do RP writeups in their boss kill notes, but that's about it. (These can be pretty cool - my old guild leader did a great one for our Twin Emps kill.)

This isn't true of all RP guilds, though - when I was in Shadowclan going OOC in groups and guild chat was completely prohibited, and voice chat was taboo too. The only acceptable places to go out of character were in tells and on the forums

Hoowah Shaduclan!

That guild was always a little weird, what with guild rank indicating whether or not you could wear shoulders/helm graphic/ride a mount. The only thing good I ever saw come out of Shadowclan was the opportunity to jump in during the Warboss "elections" and kill everyone.

#28 Thrizzle

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 10:06 PM

My guild, Silence, used to be on the RP server SilverHand until a few weeks ago, and we have 12 bosses in Naxx down (working on 4H now).

We're in Battlegroup 9, and we've never seen any Horde team that has given our guild groups even close to a challenge. Beyond that, the Alliance premade teams (not guilds casually grouping but real pvp teams) back on SH have also seen 95% wins in BGs.

My experiences are not proof of anything, but they are counter examples to the BS people believe about RP servers. Granted, there are people who *gasp* RP, but it's not like players are inherently worse at WoW or cannot push progression if they so choose.

On thing I will say now that I've played on an RP and a PvE server is that I wish names were policed on my PvE server because some of this stuff is insanely stupid.

#29 Blackpatch

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 10:09 PM

Thanks for posting, Thrizzle. Silence is the counterexample to the observation of slow RP server progression. I'm curious as to whether you guys did anything different, or if you feel that you had a different attitude or something else special that made things work.
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#30 Bekah

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 10:10 PM

This isn't true of all RP guilds, though - when I was in Shadowclan going OOC in groups and guild chat was completely prohibited, and voice chat was taboo too. The only acceptable places to go out of character were in tells and on the forums

At what point does this get intractable? I was able to captain a raid through MC, but it took all of my available macros just for MC, ZG and Onyxia - I was at a loss on how to effectively communicate via text (In-character or not) for BWL content.

We had an applicant transfering servers who had never raided with voice coms- they were at C'thun and having much difficulty with it when he left.

Personally I can't imagine trying to raid without voice coms and ooc text, but that's probably because that's all I've ever known. I find utterly silent vent kinda creepy unless we're in the middle of something super intense and we're all in the groove. Call outs to start buffs, finish buffs, move forward, stance dance, spread out, gather up, go north, spawn south... all of that is strangely soothing. If you've ever seen A Chorus Line on stage, the scene with all the people dancing in perfect coordination while different voices are highlighted in something of a monotone rythmn telling themselves to turn left, turn right, step back, step forward.... that's what vent/text spam is like for me in raids. It's like the ticking of a clock marking time.
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#31 Antiarc

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 10:13 PM

What I did notice while near and later at the forefront of Horde CC raiding is that every encounter, every class, and every guild was constantly being carried by a few really on-the-ball individuals. The one incredible tank, the one great healer, the rogue with jaw-dropping DPS, so on, so forth. Progress would be driven forwards by these few individuals. Most of the rest of the guild would be of fine quality, and then there would be 3-5 screwups who would constantly blunder around, wrecking encounters and being confused.

Holy crap, you nailed it dead on right here. Bullseye. Hole in one.

The 3-5 people that wreck encounters combined with a shallow recruiting pool due to the stigma of RP server do a LOT to hinder progress. We're on C'Thun ourselves, and we constantly find that it's a few non-attentive people that end up killing a quarter of the raid...but we don't have replacements, despite having an utterly massive membership base.

On one hand, I love the atmosphere of our raid group. It's laid back and relatively easygoing, considering that we're relatively advanced.

On the other hand, when we're trying to overcome a roadblock and a meager two or three people are holding us back because they can't do their jobs, and we can't find anyone better to replace them with, I long for a decidedly less laid-back atmosphere.
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#32 Enthralled

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 10:18 PM

Thanks for posting, Thrizzle. Silence is the counterexample to the observation of slow RP server progression. I'm curious as to whether you guys did anything different, or if you feel that you had a different attitude or something else special that made things work.

As an Alliance guild on Silver Hand the pool of players available was much greater than that available horde side. I strongly suspect this is a large reason for the difference in progression between Horde side on Silver Hand and Alliance side.

Silence always out progressed everyone horde side, and were the most progressed guild on the server before they left. I think you can point to them as proof that good raiders can come from a RP server, but they are definitely the exception on Silver Hand imho.

#33 Cathela

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 10:19 PM

To echo other above posts, many who play want to stay in their small 'friends-and-family' guilds. This leads to the necessity of guild alliances, which can be trouble. The Rugged Individualism™ that many exhibit also lead folks to think 'Oh, we can do this our own way', effectively constricting an already small raiding pool on RP servers. (Go Horde!)

That too. You tend to see more of the "Dammit I rolled a shadow priest! I'm not a healer!" attitude on RP servers (and this is somewhat understandable; people who put a lot of time into thinking about their character get more attached to their notion of what the character is "all about") so that makes it that much harder to find reliable raiders.

I think Horde guilds on RP servers get hit disproportionately hard by these problems due to the small population (though at the moent Zeza's guild is the only one currently on our server that's killed C'thun.)
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#34 Vanick

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 10:21 PM

While I agree with you that raid guilds on RP realms have issues due to a small pool of potential players, there are many PvE guilds on RP realms, who do not focus on RP at all. Their focus is purely PvE and yet they flounder. Why? I realize you are attempting to answer this with your theory, but even still on a realm like Cenarion Circle there are enough good players to field a 40 man raid which would do well. Even though there's a turnover in skilled people leaving, why can't everyone get together in one raid group?

Cliques I suppose, and skilled players not getting along. This leads to multiple guilds filled with not enough good players, meaning you have to fill the void with bad ones. I'd wager a large number of people leaving the game/their guild left in part due to becoming tired of carrying bad players. As mentioned, there's something wrong with critiquing someone's spec, and if, say, a fire mage doesn't have Burning Soul that's OK.

Some of you posting here may know me as Vanick from Cenarion Circle. I left, in part, due to this problem, and Blackpatch and I have a long history together and this has been an ongoing topic not only amongst us but amongst mostly everyone who raids on an RP realm and is truly interested in succeeding.

edit:

That too. You tend to see more of the "Dammit I rolled a shadow priest! I'm not a healer!" attitude on RP servers (and this is somewhat understandable; people who put a lot of time into thinking about their character get more attached to their notion of what the character is "all about") so that makes it that much harder to find reliable raiders.

This is also a major factor in why it is hard to find good people and a surprising number of people like this end up in raid guilds. They started out on an RP realm and found out about raiding in WoW and now they want to raid. Sadly for them, they are playing the wrong class yet stonewall on the issue.

#35 Mithin

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 10:22 PM

I played on Mannoroth PvP for well over a year but decided to play on an RP server just to get away from a lot of the immaturity. For the most part its worked out well. You don't find the flaming in general chat or the emo guild members (as much). As for progress, the only thing holding us back is the lack of experienced players. Now, don't get me wrong our progression is not slow by any means but I feel that if we had the same core membership with a larger recruiting base we'd be further than we currently are.

We've really been saved my realm transfers. With 10 bosses down in nax (soon to be 11) its not too bad for us to advertise on the guild recruitment forums or anythign like that. The problem is that the next guild in terms of progression has 3 bosses down in nax (our guild being the only one server-wide to kill c'thun).

RP servers just dont have as many die-hard PvE'rs as found on PvP servers. It's not the "RP" environment that kills progression.

#36 namufot

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 10:31 PM

I can't really agree with this; RP servers on the same battlegrounds as Tichondrius in one week introduced me to more melee hunters than I'd seen the two years of playing Tich.

I wouldn't say that it is just the RP servers who have no idea how to pvp.. pretty much all pugs I've run into in BG9 are just completely terrible.

#37 Tahotar

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 10:35 PM

From my experience in some of the top horde-side raiding guilds on Cenarion Circle before transferring to a PvE server, it's purely a numbers game. Less people who are interested in pushing content and less people with the time and dedication to do it successfully. Recruiting new and decently geared members hordeside was next to impossible due to the small player pool who was interested in raiding.

#38 Renaldo

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 10:40 PM

Organized RP server teams do alright in cross-server PvP for their level of gear, and there's no reason that an individual RP server player should be worse than an individual regular server player.

I can't really agree with this; RP servers on the same battlegrounds as Tichondrius in one week introduced me to more melee hunters than I'd seen the two years of playing Tich.

So this one time, on a PvE server, there was I saw like, 3 casters, and they were like, hitting people with their staves.

OMFG PVESERVERSUX LOL L2P PLZ!!!.!!1

#39 Chicken

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 10:49 PM

I once saw this Priest from a PvE server that used Fade in the battlegrounds to try and stop people hitting him! ... Wait, that was me.

On a more serious note, I don't think the slower progression relatively speaking is related as much to RP servers as the fact that the PvP ruleset attracts more 'hardcore' players, whom are thus also more inclined towards raiding in general. We get a lot of cross-server applications ourselves, despite the fact that we've 'only' killed Maexxna/Noth/Razuvious in Naxx, it's simply the case that that's actually very advanced for a Horde guild on a PvE server.

#40 modhelm

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 11:12 PM

Thanks for posting, Thrizzle. Silence is the counterexample to the observation of slow RP server progression. I'm curious as to whether you guys did anything different, or if you feel that you had a different attitude or something else special that made things work.

The simple answer to that is competitiveness. I think that's a word.

I recall reading a thread awhile back on these very forums on why all the top guilds seemed to be from PvP servers. Seems like the same question to me.

At one point when we (a raid on an RP server) actually beat the (now #1, then) #2 guild on the server to killing the twin emperors, there were very few people who actually found that exciting. It just wasn't any kind of motivation for some people. If your whole raid really isn't trying to get anywhere fast, you don't get anywhere fast.




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