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Theories about slow RP server raid progression


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#41 Lymmel

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 11:14 PM

I think it mostly has to do with 2 things:

a) Faction Balance. The typical rp server in eu atleast is a high pop server with 4:1 alliance to horde. Besides the fact a lot of the most competitive alliance people left because they couldn't handle the 7 hour av/3 hour ab queue before cross server bg's, there are at least in AD EU too many guilds. Really, we have around 14 alliance guilds killing Nefarian today and 0 guilds killing c'thun and only 3 have killed the twin emps (only 1 horde guild has killed c'thun). Some Naxxramas bosses have been downed, best is at Grobbulus at the moment. But even having downed Patchwerk, I still find the fact noone has managed to kill C'thun a bit disappointing and it leads me to believe that all the talent is just spread around in too many guilds/communities. The leading Horde guild has managed to actually do better than the alliance guilds because even if the horde side is much less populated, it can pretty much gather all the good players on that side, both in skill and attendance. While in alliance you can leave your guild and join another one with similar progression next week. What someone said about 10 people being really good, 20-25 being the bulk of your raid and 5 screwing up in every way possible is true more or less as well.


b) More casual players. The 2 most hardcore alliance communities I know are raiding 4 days per week, of which I think members only need to attend 2-3 days. The horde guild is more or less the same I believe. I don't think it's feasible to expect KT kills yet from guilds with such raid schedules, there's just not enough time considering they also clear bwl and AQ40 up to Huhuran at least each week. My guild raids 3 days per week and we barely get 2-3 hours to try a new boss each week for the last few weeks if that. I think raid leaders as well, mostly coming from a relaxed roleplaying background don't really discipline most guilds/communities. Part of the reason is also the player base is also mostly casual, so your hopes of replacing low attendance members with people who always show on time with consumables etc aren't really high. I think that most people in rp servers came here to escape the l33t speak crowd and find more people with similar playtimes to play with, much like I did when I first rolled on AD.

But other than that, I think that if you could measure the time spent/kills in rp servers they would be pretty well off.

#42 Nurru

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 11:30 PM

My guild, Silence, used to be on the RP server SilverHand until a few weeks ago, and we have 12 bosses in Naxx down (working on 4H now).

We're in Battlegroup 9, and we've never seen any Horde team that has given our guild groups even close to a challenge. Beyond that, the Alliance premade teams (not guilds casually grouping but real pvp teams) back on SH have also seen 95% wins in BGs.

My experiences are not proof of anything, but they are counter examples to the BS people believe about RP servers. Granted, there are people who *gasp* RP, but it's not like players are inherently worse at WoW or cannot push progression if they so choose.

On thing I will say now that I've played on an RP and a PvE server is that I wish names were policed on my PvE server because some of this stuff is insanely stupid.

Have your team leader join the BG9 irc channel and set up a game with T A O. Brullig is probably the one you'll want to talk to there.

Oh, and whoever asked: My Warlock on Cenarion Circle was named Kalika. I was in <Disciples of Light> (CC had a lot of "Of Light" guilds), <Lost Honor>, <Soul Reckoning> and <Ergo Bibamus>.

#43 JoltColaOfEvil

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 11:46 PM

Have your team leader join the BG9 irc channel and set up a game with T A O. Brullig is probably the one you'll want to talk to there.

Hmmm, where's this BG9 IRC channel ? :)

#44 Seeten

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 11:54 PM

We are currently downing C'thun and 7 bosses in Naxx. We do have several people who dont show up enough, dont pay attention enough, and we simply cant replace them. The recruits are just not there.

I rolled on an RP server for maturity. I didnt want to hang out with leet dudes, and I didnt want to see "Assmotron" or something, namewise, or "meandmybow". Sadly, I now see "Meandmybow" all the time in BG's, and I cant avoid it, aside from not pving, and I guess I got more maturity, but I often wonder if I shot myself in the foot, as with maturity comes kids, wives, jobs, and less raiding/interest in raiding.

Cenarian Circle makes me sad. We are high on forum trolls, and low on both RP and Raiding.

#45 Nurru

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Posted 04 October 2006 - 12:00 AM

Have your team leader join the BG9 irc channel and set up a game with T A O. Brullig is probably the one you'll want to talk to there.

Hmmm, where's this BG9 IRC channel ? :)

#battlegroup9 on irc.gamesurge.net. Nurfed hangs out there too because they hate their battlegroup so much :)

#46 Steelclad

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Posted 04 October 2006 - 12:30 AM

My impression of RP servers is that everyone speaks in tongues 100% of the time and that this impedes raid progress.

This is a common misperception which I should get out of the way quickly. RP servers use Vent, /p and /g the same way any other server uses them. It's considered obnoxious to remain in character in /p and /g. Some RP server raid guilds will do RP writeups in their boss kill notes, but that's about it. (These can be pretty cool - my old guild leader did a great one for our Twin Emps kill.)

This isn't true of all RP guilds, though - when I was in Shadowclan going OOC in groups and guild chat was completely prohibited, and voice chat was taboo too. The only acceptable places to go out of character were in tells and on the forums

No, it's definitely not true of all guilds, but it is true of the majority, and every guild that has any real competitive raiding ambitions.

The answer to the original question is really just: because RP servers don't care as much.

#47 kharen

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Posted 04 October 2006 - 12:45 AM

I'd be interested to know how the RP-PvP servers are doing. We didn't have that option at release (or else I would've rolled there goddamnit!), but I'd be interested to see what kind of player that brings in. On the one hand PvP servers tend to have competitive players and great progression, on the other hand you see in this thread that RP servers tend to have worse progression overall. Supposedly. How are the rp-pvp servers doing?

The Venture Co was one of the first pair of RP-PVP servers in the EU. We're one of the most progressed Horde guilds, having taken down the Twin Emps and Razuvious (with two other guilds at roughly the same point - one of them has Anub as well as Razu, and has got C'thun to phase 2, the other at pretty much exactly the same stage of progression as us). Alliance side, one guild has killed C'thun, cleared the spider wing, and killed Razuvious, Noth, Patchwerk and Grobbulus, and the next guild is at C'thun phase 2 and has killed Razuvious.

There are 10 Nef-killing guilds now, split evenly Alliance/Horde, and 6 guilds killing the Twin Emps, again split evenly Alliance/Horde.

The server opened in September last year (just celebrated the 1y anniversary a few weeks ago), and it took until late December/early January for a decent number of people to hit 60, which is roughly when serious raiding started for most of us (there were a couple of exceptions - one Horde guild which since disbanded, and the most progressed Alliance guild mentioned above). My guild in particular started running ZG in mid-December, iirc, and finally had enough people for our first MC raid to happen on January 1st.

I'd say the comments about the "casualness" of players on RP servers is pretty true about RP-PVP as well, to an extent (possibly not quite as much, but still somewhat compared to PVP servers). We have fixed raid cutoff times, and when we hit them we pretty much just stop - we just don't have enough people who are hardcore enough to stay up until things die, no matter how much some of us officers wish we did ;) (i'm not sure if this is true for the other guilds, though - we've always had a fairly casual attitude in general; i know at least one person from one of the other guilds at our level of progression posts here, so i'm sure he can comment on them). Also, even with a relatively casual raiding schedule, finding recruits who can commit to put enough time in is challenging (in fact, a few of our recent recruits have actually been raiders from pvp servers transferring here and looking for a slightly more casual raiding environment). Luckily TVC has always been fairly well-balanced, so at least we're not dealing with a ridiculously shallow pool of potential recruits as most Horde guilds on the release RP servers will be.

Edit: and yes, i think the comments about average age on RP servers is quite probably accurate - one of the things that forces us to limit our raiding hours is the fact that a majority of our members work full time, and hence can't start before certain times, and have to get to sleep at some point. Combine that with time zone complications, and we're generally stuck raiding from 20:30 server time (which is 19:30 uk time - most of our raidleaders are from the UK, and don't get back from work until about 19:00), to 00:30 server time, by which point our Eastern European guys really need to be getting to sleep for work the next day, as it's 01:30 for them.

#48 Bluefish

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Posted 04 October 2006 - 12:58 AM

I'd wager a large number of people leaving the game/their guild left in part due to becoming tired of carrying bad players.

/cheerful wave

Yep, that was us -- remember the old NOOBS group? As a class lead I used to dream of having five competent Priests that would be able to show up consistently. For our group, the situation finally became intolerable as we pushed on to Vaelastrasz -- AQ was already out, we'd been in the Molten Core for nearly a year, and we couldn't get people to show up to "extra" (zomg my weekday nights are sacred!) attempts, or farm, or gear themselves, or respec. We discussed a lot of solutions, one of which was to dissolve the raid group and form a new one from the ground up, but in the end we saw exactly what Blackpatch is writing of: the available quantity of good raiders had already been divided up into cliques that wouldn't associate.

I'm curious to hear what options other raid groups/raiders have taken to get out of the "RP sinkhole" situation. For our group, a reroll gave us an environment in which we could succeed. I guess a guild merger could accomplish the same thing if both guild leaders managed to successfully ditch their fluff and combine their cores. If all else fails, server transfers are pretty cheap...

#49 Ghagzskul

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Posted 04 October 2006 - 01:14 AM

Feathermoon has only had four Horde groups defeat Nefarian, two of which were within the past month, and only one server-wide C’Thun kill (/wave to anyone from Catalyst reading this). There is a shortage of skilled players, but not to the extent you would think. But there is a severe drought of /competitive/, skilled players, the kind who want to put in the extra time to learn an encounter and make that final push for the kill. RP servers seem to attract a more mature audience, but also one that gives WoW raiding a lower priority in their lives.

It’s the same reason PvP servers generally have a more active raiding population, the most competitive players tend towards the most competitive servers.

#50 enshula

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Posted 04 October 2006 - 04:33 AM

We are currently downing C'thun and 7 bosses in Naxx. We do have several people who dont show up enough, dont pay attention enough, and we simply cant replace them. The recruits are just not there.

I rolled on an RP server for maturity. I didnt want to hang out with leet dudes, and I didnt want to see "Assmotron" or something, namewise, or "meandmybow". Sadly, I now see "Meandmybow" all the time in BG's, and I cant avoid it, aside from not pving, and I guess I got more maturity, but I often wonder if I shot myself in the foot, as with maturity comes kids, wives, jobs, and less raiding/interest in raiding.

Cenarian Circle makes me sad. We are high on forum trolls, and low on both RP and Raiding.

He got a name change dont worry. Actually he reported himself. :)

#51 enshula

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Posted 04 October 2006 - 04:47 AM

double post - deleted

#52 zeppelinhobo

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Posted 04 October 2006 - 04:55 AM

delete this
(private messaging needs a preview function imo!)

#53 uruloki

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Posted 04 October 2006 - 07:03 AM

There is a shortage of skilled players, but not to the extent you would think. But there is a severe drought of /competitive/, skilled players, the kind who want to put in the extra time to learn an encounter and make that final push for the kill. RP servers seem to attract a more mature audience, but also one that gives WoW raiding a lower priority in their lives.

It’s the same reason PvP servers generally have a more active raiding population, the most competitive players tend towards the most competitive servers.

QFT. I'm on Feathermoon Horde now, after moving from Silver Hand Alliance (ex-Morgantis). As much as it pains me to say this, I wish my friends and I had originally rolled on a PVP server. As it was, Morgantis' competitive players all jumped ship to Silence (three separate times). /wave Balance, Ysoac, Fintan, Jaydangel, etc. That created severe heartburn on other people in Morgantis, who rerolled as Horde on Feathermoon. Three raid alliances later (hate hate HATE raid alliances), I rerolled on Feathermoon myself. My previous guild is up to Chromaggus after about 8 months of dedicated raiding and I'm really just hanging around waiting for tBC to come out and a bunch of people to reroll as Blood Elfs, having resigned myself to the fact that I will never see Nefarion, AQ40, or Naxx as they were designed to be played.

Man, that's a lot of drama wrapped up in about six sentences...

#54 Emth

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Posted 04 October 2006 - 09:01 AM

I'd be interested to know how the RP-PvP servers are doing. We didn't have that option at release (or else I would've rolled there goddamnit!), but I'd be interested to see what kind of player that brings in. On the one hand PvP servers tend to have competitive players and great progression, on the other hand you see in this thread that RP servers tend to have worse progression overall. Supposedly. How are the rp-pvp servers doing?

The Venture Co was one of the first pair of RP-PVP servers in the EU. We're one of the most progressed Horde guilds, having taken down the Twin Emps and Razuvious (with two other guilds at roughly the same point - one of them has Anub as well as Razu, and has got C'thun to phase 2, the other at pretty much exactly the same stage of progression as us). Alliance side, one guild has killed C'thun, cleared the spider wing, and killed Razuvious, Noth, Patchwerk and Grobbulus, and the next guild is at C'thun phase 2 and has killed Razuvious.

There are 10 Nef-killing guilds now, split evenly Alliance/Horde, and 6 guilds killing the Twin Emps, again split evenly Alliance/Horde.

The server opened in September last year (just celebrated the 1y anniversary a few weeks ago), and it took until late December/early January for a decent number of people to hit 60, which is roughly when serious raiding started for most of us (there were a couple of exceptions - one Horde guild which since disbanded, and the most progressed Alliance guild mentioned above). My guild in particular started running ZG in mid-December, iirc, and finally had enough people for our first MC raid to happen on January 1st.

I'd say the comments about the "casualness" of players on RP servers is pretty true about RP-PVP as well, to an extent (possibly not quite as much, but still somewhat compared to PVP servers). We have fixed raid cutoff times, and when we hit them we pretty much just stop - we just don't have enough people who are hardcore enough to stay up until things die, no matter how much some of us officers wish we did ;) (i'm not sure if this is true for the other guilds, though - we've always had a fairly casual attitude in general; i know at least one person from one of the other guilds at our level of progression posts here, so i'm sure he can comment on them). Also, even with a relatively casual raiding schedule, finding recruits who can commit to put enough time in is challenging (in fact, a few of our recent recruits have actually been raiders from pvp servers transferring here and looking for a slightly more casual raiding environment). Luckily TVC has always been fairly well-balanced, so at least we're not dealing with a ridiculously shallow pool of potential recruits as most Horde guilds on the release RP servers will be.

Edit: and yes, i think the comments about average age on RP servers is quite probably accurate - one of the things that forces us to limit our raiding hours is the fact that a majority of our members work full time, and hence can't start before certain times, and have to get to sleep at some point. Combine that with time zone complications, and we're generally stuck raiding from 20:30 server time (which is 19:30 uk time - most of our raidleaders are from the UK, and don't get back from work until about 19:00), to 00:30 server time, by which point our Eastern European guys really need to be getting to sleep for work the next day, as it's 01:30 for them.

Just a few points further to what Kharen has said. There are definately humerous misconceptions surrounding RP servers. In our case specifically, a number of PvP servers thought it was hilarious they'd been battlegrouped with 2 RPPVP servers and that we wouldn't know what hit us, when in reality I know that both alliance and horde premades from our server are rarely defeated and that i've never lost a WSG playing in a guild premade. I firmly believe the general quality of players is higher than on PvP servers i've previously played on.

PvE wise I guess it's quite hard to measure our progression as a server because we are post release server but I don't think we are slow by any stretch. Our personal guild progression is Lucifron first down 05/02/06 and Emps first down 17/09/06 with almost all having no prior raid experience (especially BWL and above) and I know that the single Alliance guild on our server that have killed C'Thun got world number 50 something, which is pretty damn good for a guild on a server almost a year newer than US release servers. However, we do have a reasonably small pool of players to choose from. One of the main reasons for this is that almost all of the horde guilds are really solid (with good leaderships), and it's very rare people move around the top guilds (and when they do it's often due to joining friends). I personally never attmept to 'poach' members and have never actively gone after someone in another guild and I havent seen that kind of thing happening often either. I believe there have only been 2 significant disbandings of Horde raiding guilds since realm raiding began, and that's pretty impressive in my opinion. When I go back to my PvP server alts it's quite a shock to the system.

As a side note being elitist I get a chuckle from inspecting people and seeing them with silly enchants and gear choices (sad i know) and I get far more laughs when i'm on my alt on Stormreaver than on my main, It's not often you find AQ geared dps warriors with 8 agility on legs/helm and 15 agility on their offhand in RP land. Then again my alt is alliance so make of that what you will :P

#55 ildon

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Posted 04 October 2006 - 09:25 AM

What I did notice while near and later at the forefront of Horde CC raiding is that every encounter, every class, and every guild was constantly being carried by a few really on-the-ball individuals. The one incredible tank, the one great healer, the rogue with jaw-dropping DPS, so on, so forth. Progress would be driven forwards by these few individuals. Most of the rest of the guild would be of fine quality, and then there would be 3-5 screwups who would constantly blunder around, wrecking encounters and being confused.

In the (frequent) event that one of the excellent individuals burnt out and left the game, left the guild, or left the server, guilds would open recruiting and find a replacement. But the recruiting pool was very shallow and tended to be filled with the same journeymen, skipping from raid guild to raid guild as each one lost its edge and dropped its standards far enough to accomodate them. Good players did not become excellent players and bad players did not become good players at the same rate that excellent players left the game.

Sounds like Shattered Hand (PvP) Horde. Probably a ton of other servers, too. I think that's just the nature of the game. You just have to be either very focused or very lucky to get a group of more than 10 great players and 30 (total, including "great") good players. You fill the rest of the raid with either "passable" or "need a warm body" players. I thought being on a PvE server now (although it was never my reason for joining Dalaran) I would see more players that were focused on raiding. So far, from what I've seen, I was wrong. It's basically the same setup, just with far less players interested in PvP.
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#56 Taja

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Posted 04 October 2006 - 09:58 AM

Im playing on EU moonglade myself (cant select in the in profile screen) and there are currently 2 alliance guilds who are raiding seriously. (edit- fixed profile, moonglade eu is now available)

Were having AQ on farm (minus ouro/viscidus) and just started doing naxx killing just anub and faerlina soon probably.

Another guild is at fankriss right now with 0 bosses down in naxx.

Horde has 1 serious guild which is trying cthun right now.

Problems we face is that when a player leaves the guild (usually quits/rerolls) were having hard to to replace it with someone who's gear is equal. Most of the people from the second alliance guild dont leave there guilds forcing us to take transfers (sometimes good, sometimes bad) or people with a few MC pieces. Severely killing our progress.

Second thing I noticed is that our guild was WAY ahead of everyone else which made us slacking. We took like a month and a half for twin emps while we raid 5 days a week. Once the horde guild killed twin emps a week after us we started doing some insane progression on cthun doing phase 2 in 2 nights.

Conclusion on our server is not enough dedicated raiders to fill up spots once people leave (starting to get better though)

second more competition between guilds, usually means better progress

#57 Z-Factor

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Posted 04 October 2006 - 10:16 AM

To be honest, anybody who calls The Venture Co. a rolplaying realm is off their rocker. ye olde goone squade, redrum inc, the azuresong circle (all three alliance guilds, although azuresong circle disbanded) did not have strong roleplaying intentions. Again, like all roleplaying servers, TVC was hit by some people rolling there only "to avoid l33t idiots" or to play on a realm with a very low population. This shows in the make-up of the top raiding alliance guilds there at least, (I don't think i need to go into details of the ahn'qiraj opening but from what i have heard wasn'tthe smartest thing to do on a realm where people innately like to talk and backstab).

I think the biggest problem is the lack of experianced players, committed players and (unfortunately) skill on the realms due mainly in part to the lower numbers. I play on ravenholdt-eu, RP-PvP server, and am one of the three guildmasters of the only guild left on the server that has been together from day one, but admittedly we originally only planed to try every aspect of the game out, although today what most would consider an RP-PvE guild (although we consider our approach unique, at least within Europe). The same three guild leaders for well over five months now (three way system, works well if you've known each other for years like we have), i'd originally retired my rogue from a c'thun killing guild a few weeks before and had taken a break from WoW completely mainly to get my revision for my exams back on track. In the past two weeks, we've managed to successfully kill Ragnaros, admitedly not a huge thing anymore, but it's one of those game memories you take with you. It was a raid of 37 people who had never seen UBRS before they'd joined the guild,and three others including myself with heavy raid experiance. So, of course, we fill MC raids every week now, not a problem. Problem is getting people together for BWL. On Monday, our core 25 turned up (except myself as I had unfortunately forgotten i had committed myself to cooking for the girl that night), guys whose average gear is well into Tier 1 on nearly every slot (thanks mainly to lots of Zul'Gurub raids before Molten Core). Since we killed Rag, these are the guys who would form the core for most average guilds and even demonstrate the skill and determination demonstrated by more famous guilds such as EJ, D+T, Curse, Forte, Risen etc etc (coming from a C'thun guild i feel well placed to judge how well people can play their class and even i am pleasantly surprised by the skill level), but we're now being held back by not a lack of numbers (124 active 60s in the guild) but people not wanting to wipe continuosly or only after free purples. Whilst obviously we do not have the experiance i think is manatory to really hit the level 70 raid instances running (again ony 4-5 people with any BWL and therefore proper tactical experiance), although these guys will learn incredibly quickly we might not be able to fully compete as we would like to for a while.

On the plus side, we have 20 beta keys already and are hoping to secure the 25 from the photo competition tonight, so we will at least have first hand experiance (and hopefully some boss ability experiance) before TBC goes live.

#58 Rogar

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Posted 04 October 2006 - 11:27 AM

Argent Dawn server has been around since release and is the 6th highest US RP realm population-wise; 38th overall US. The most progressed Alliance guild killed Ragnaros in July 2005, Nefarian in December 2005, C'Thun in May and is currently on Thaddius. Nothing groundbreaking to be sure, but it's pretty good for the time invested (20 hours over 6 nights/week).

Many people I know chose an RP server because of the additional public chat rules that have gotten most bnetters banned within an hour. There's maybe a handful of people who RP, but it's never in guild, raid or Ventrilo.

Argent Dawn progression: http://forums.worldo...=12023698&sid=1 Summary: 22 Nef killing guilds (17 A/5 H), 3 C'Thun killing guilds (3 A/0 H) and 14 guilds (12 A/2 H) with kills in Naxxrammus.

#59 Tanoh

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Posted 04 October 2006 - 11:45 AM

I play on (EU) Earthen Ring, it's one of the two original RP servers in EU (the other being Argent Dawn).

Raid progress has been quite slow for us, there's afaik only one group(*) that has killed C'thun, but that's alliance side so I'm not 100% sure it's still accurate. Being horde I generally don't care that much how they're doing.

Horde side there's currently 4 groups that have killed Nefarian, and one more (the one I'm in working on it). Alliance side I don't know. I don't know about Naxx, I think the top two alliance guild/groups have killed a few bosses there, and 2 of the horde guild/groups have killed Razuvious, but I'm not 100% sure.

(*): One quite big difference is the guild affiliations, on RP servers this is more of an in character tie for a lot of people than on a non-RP server where the concept IC/OOC doesn't exist. :) Most of the raiding is done in groups, collection of guilds, rather than all having one guild tag. There are pure raid guilds too, but to a much smaller degree than PvE/PvP where guilds are pretty much the only option.


I don't think RP players are generally worse players than those in PvE/PvP servers, there are bad players everywhere. The big difference is that RP servers are sort of the black sheep of servers. I think people when they select server to play on go "hmm.. PvP or PvE?" and ignore the RP servers. That and also being the smaller faction (horde) limits our recruitment options. There are some really strange people in our group. Keyboardwalkers and the-I-don't-really-care-I-just-want-shinies... I'm pretty sure they are everywhere but the more you have to chose from, the more likely you are to find good people. :)


I'm by no means a hardcore RP:er, sure I do it sometimes, but most of the time I raid with my char or prepare for it. I chose RP server mostly so that I could get away from the annoying angst filled teenagers that type like their fingers were 30 cm thick (to match their skulls). Of course there are people like that on RP servers too, but they're much fewer. Sadly blizzard doesn't really care about the RP servers (and looking at the number of RP servers compared to others, I sorta understand why) so they are becoming more and more frequent, along with their "cool" names.

All the raid group/guilds on the server I know of use voice com and "normal" /raid chat. There's no place for RP inside instances. Most seem to use the use the guideline that RP happens in /say and emote outside instances. Party/raid/guild/etc are purely ooc, and you don't RP around something that happens inside an instance. For example, you don't RP and say "I'm the best dragonslayer ever! I killed Onyxia!" because killing someone means they are dead (duh), and then they can't come back, when everyone knows that they reset and multiple groups can kill Onyxia in a given week. It just doesn't make good RP, so it's avoided.

Also, someone mentioned gear that looks good. There are many who RP who runs around with several sets of clothing that just looks good. I myself have a warrior alt that always runs around in a cloth hat when not tanking, simply because it looks pimp on him. Whenever I enter an instance I just turn of head graphics and put on my normal plate helmet.

#60 Mem

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Posted 04 October 2006 - 11:58 AM

While many of the thesises of the op are imho correct, I might want to add a different perspective to this discussion. At least in the German community, first kill lists and progression is dominated by PVP server raids.
EU-Perenolde was launched mere days after the EU release. Yet we have only one raid that regularly kills cthun (the other guild that accomplished this, failed to replicate the kill after the zanza nerf), that has killed ouro. Naxx progression is spider wing clear, raz, noth and patch/grob/gluth. Our structure is pretty unique in having depending on individual players rather than guilds. Some people would call it an organized PUG :)

The progression of a server depends on the availability of hardcore, progression minded players. If the atmosphere on the server is more casual oriented, progression cannot be archieved since the pool of progression minded players is too small. This is especially true for the minority side (our horde companions have three guilds that have BWL on farm and are progressing in naxx/aq). It is pretty difficult to recruit players who are able and willing to join a progression raid. Quite a lot of folks who would be candidate material will leave the server for a more hardcore environment.

Therefore: PVP servers tend to attract the more hardcore players. PVE and RP server will have a much more casual atmosphere which results in slower progression.




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