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Team Robot Simulator and Gear Comparison Tool


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#41 revulva

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 02:47 PM

This is just an amazing simulator! The fact that it's web-based makes it even more attractive. Just kind glitchy when setting filters for the gear upgrades, and some class/specs don't seem to load and work properly.

Great job Mr. Robot!


Thanks!

Right now only Death Knights and Feral Druids are implemented. We're working to push out additional classes very soon.

What sorts of glitches are you getting when you set filters? We've been trying to keep up with any issues people have been having.

#42 The Grog

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 10:46 PM

It never finds any gear. Ever. I let it sit for 15m while loading shoulder items with the pve and tier item filers enabled, and it never came back with other items to choose from.

Looking into 'Full Buffs' might be helpful, as I don't know which food it is using. Or which flask/elixir.

Something to note the white crit cap would also be great.

The model looks accurate, I think, as the default rotation with changes to bite priority is pretty close to what I try for and actual dps output was within 400 of what the sim reports.

#43 RareBeast

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 03:26 AM

Yeah, being able to see what % of your attacks were plain old hits would be nice. Would give me much more of an idea as to how close I was to the various crit caps (rather than having to subtract the crit, hit & dodge totals from 100 and account for glancings for auto attacks.

Looks pretty good so far.

#44 Yellowsix

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 04:12 AM

It never finds any gear. Ever. I let it sit for 15m while loading shoulder items with the pve and tier item filers enabled, and it never came back with other items to choose from.

Looking into 'Full Buffs' might be helpful, as I don't know which food it is using. Or which flask/elixir.

Something to note the white crit cap would also be great.

The model looks accurate, I think, as the default rotation with changes to bite priority is pretty close to what I try for and actual dps output was within 400 of what the sim reports.


I just checked, and I was able to load the list of shoulder items just fine... if you disable both the "TIER" and "NON-TIER" item filters, it will of course come back empty... because you have eliminated every possible item in the game. Is that what happened?

If not, and you encounter an issue again, let me know with as much detail as possible around what you did, and I'll look into it.

When I load full buffs, it checks agility food and flask of endless rage. Click on "CUSTM" to see the detailed list of current buffs, and to customize it if you wish.

I'm working on some stuff to improve estimated DPS values around the crit cap and other soft/hard caps. I'll try to get it into the next update.

#45 The Grog

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 04:35 AM

Right now, with the boxes next to 'Tier Items' and 'PvE Items' filled in, it has been loading shoulder items for the last 5 hours. I use firefox, btw. I can change gems and enchants no problem, but there is no way to change gear item because there are no options. Just a box on the left that says Item Customization: Shoulder, Loading, and the rotating red thing.

The same thing occurs for all slots, regardless of which filters are enabled or disabled, except gloves. Gloves and glove alone load properly. However, gear does load for my DK.

Oh, and Nightmare's Tear doesn't seem to be correctly giving a socket bonus.

#46 Yellowsix

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 09:14 AM

I have fixed the issue with Prismatic gems not activating socket bonuses: it will work if you remove/add the nightmare tear after loading your character. I'll post a fix in the next day or two that should activate it properly upon loading from the armory.

As for the item lists not loading, I have found the bug: it only happens for jewelcrafters. I'll post that fix as soon as possible.

#47 Yellowsix

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 09:10 PM

I have posted an update with a few bug fixes. You can see the full list of changes at WoW Simulator Change Log.

I'm still working on some improved item estimates for feral druids, but I wanted to get these bug fixes posted first.

#48 YiffYiff

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 09:00 PM

Just a discrepancy I noticed: TRS overestimated my self buffed dps by about 200 dps when compared to simcraft (6000 on TRS vs 5800 on SC).

#49 Inaiwae

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 11:21 AM

It recommends me Strength as the strongest stat, which is different from what Rawr and theorycrafting says (arpen / agi).

Anyone else notices this?

#50 revulva

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 03:24 PM

It recommends me Strength as the strongest stat, which is different from what Rawr and theorycrafting says (arpen / agi).

Anyone else notices this?


Remember - if you equip an item and hit "simulate", it will give you an accurate result. So, if you think you should be using an item with agil and/or arpen over strength, equip the item and run a simulation to compare the results.

The item lists are just showing estimates of the relative DPS. Right now they are slightly favoring strength, due to the complexity of factoring in the hard and soft crit caps for our estimations. We are working on improving those estimates, and hope to have an update out soon.

#51 The Grog

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 09:41 PM

There is a problem with socket bonuses and switching between different saved versions of the same character. As in, the socket bonuses stay in effect. I was testing the 'hit is good, equip the sack' advice in the other thread, and after testing a copy of my druid changed to full ICC gear and playing with orange gems to dive to the armor pen hard cap. When I loaded a version (with a slightly different talent spec) with the sack, socket bonuses on my boots and bracer and such stayed in green text (I assume that means the bonus is active) despite the gemming changing back to straight red armor pen.

I don't know if this was a display bug, or if the bonus was actually counted. Didn't think to check before I fixed it.

Also, the 'other stats' pane that pops up when you mouseover your 'stats' pane in the upper left seems bugged or stuck. It displays set numbers for hit and expertise % regardless of gems or gear changes.

EDIT: Loading a new character also causes it to forget which gem is in the gloves BS socket.

#52 Yellowsix

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 12:21 AM

Yeah I also noticed certain stats getting "stuck" in the extra stat pane... I'll try to figure that out. It seems to be using the correct numbers in the simulation even though the display is incorrect.

I was able to reproduce the socket bonus problem with one character but not another... I'm wondering if it is a blacksmith-specific problem. I'll try to figure it out and post it along with the next update.

#53 Yellowsix

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 03:47 AM

I've posted a small update that addresses some bugs. The full list of changes is at WoW Simulator Change Log.

The bugs that The Grog encountered should be fixed now.

I'm still working on improving the item estimates, as well as the Moonkin module, which is nearly complete.

#54 Inaiwae

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 08:44 AM

Remember - if you equip an item and hit "simulate", it will give you an accurate result. So, if you think you should be using an item with agil and/or arpen over strength, equip the item and run a simulation to compare the results.

The item lists are just showing estimates of the relative DPS. Right now they are slightly favoring strength, due to the complexity of factoring in the hard and soft crit caps for our estimations. We are working on improving those estimates, and hope to have an update out soon.


It is not that easy. One item vs another is just few points difference, and the variability with default settings is around 60.

I tried 3 runs with 10000 iterations (variability +-6), with different gemming:
full str: 10072
full agi: 10082 (65% crit before mongoose, idol, DV and DBW procs, thus partially past soft crit cap)
full arpen: 10146

The estimations were not very helpful (yet). Maybe it would help if you explained how are the estimations done? If its not secret. As it is now they are wrong for my profile, and testing each item with 10000 iterations is not practical.

Also while i understand why the tool would underestimate agility due to soft crit caps, i dont see why it would do the same with armor penetration as i dont have hard cap yet, and i have no arpen-proccing trinket. Any chance you forgot to update DBW which is not proccing armor penetration anymore? When i had full arpen gemming, it said that strength is the best stat to gem, and it switched back to armor penetration when i regemmed half of the gear.

#55 Yellowsix

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 10:54 AM

Yeah I would expect the improvements to estimates to value crit slightly higher, but not sure why it thinks attack power is slightly better than armor penetration in the estimates, whereas the actual simulations are slightly favoring armor penetration. I'll have to play around with it.

The estimation technique is not a secret -- we use a very simple approach: I run a bunch of simulations with various combinations of stats. Then to estimate your DPS with a particular item, I equip the item on your character, and use your current stats to do a linear regression based on the pre-calculated data (or another way of saying it, I use your current stats to do a weighted average of all pre-calculated data points). Then, I apply a set of tweaks for idols, set bonuses, and a few other special things.

It's a 100% statistical method -- we figured hey, we have this simulator and an automation harness for it, why bother coming up with formulas? Just run a bunch of simulations and do some simple math. It turns out that the math is a little *too* simple right now, but I'm working on improvements that should handle soft/hard caps on stats more gracefully.


If you look at the current estimates, and if you look at your own results from actual simulations, the value of strength, armor penetration, and agility is *very* close in both cases... the order is reversed, but the magnitude is in the right ballpark. I want to tweak it a little more to be sure, but I'm pretty comfortable saying that in an actual fight, you won't notice any significant difference if you gem one way or the other at higher gear levels (taking soft and hard caps into account of course).

#56 Vaccine

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 12:03 PM

The tool looks fantastic first of all, great job.

I played around with it very briefly and here are a few observations:
- Berserk use doesn’t seem to be optimised. The simulation I just ran through appears to use Berserk with a low energy pool (50) and 5 CP stacked. At least last time I checked the optimal Berserk use was to amass some energy before using but looking at some sims it seems your threshold is set to store energy to 50 as soon as Berserk is off CD then use it.
- The gem issue already mentioned, it is annoying for the default gems to differ from the optimal ones. If this is too much of an issue to change, a button to “Gem Highest DPS” or something would be great to change the item once selected.
- It seems for JC gems it will default to putting them in items if you don’t have the max. But there is nothing preventing you from putting past the max in, nor any information I could find that said when I did have too many. Again with Dragon’s Eyes it is putting agi in when it isn’t ranked the top gem.
- There seems to be something funny with the calculations for valuing stats. In my tank gear that I’m currently wearing on armoury, but with a DPS spec subbed in, it is valuing strength as higher than agility. I’m only at 60% crit so it shouldn’t be any issue with crit capping, so this is confusing.

#57 Yellowsix

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 07:34 PM

If you look at the "ROTATION" section and click on the icon, it'll show you the default rotation. You can then edit it to your liking. I'll play around with Berserk in the default rotation to see if I can optimize it further, I'm always open to suggested tweaks on the defaults.

Yeah the "default" gems are still pretty basic (agility in everything) -- I'm going to revisit that once I finish tweaking the estimated values for items.

I'll put a filter on the gem list to hide JC gems if 3 are already equipped.

As stated above, it is currently valuing strength (attack power) just slightly higher than agility and ArP at certain gear levels -- the current estimates were a little too simplistic, and I'm going to be updating them this week sometime.

That said, if you run the simulations, the actual value of these stats is very close, which is why the estimates had a little trouble with it. For example, I did a test on my character to go from ~20% ArP to ~60% ArP by putting all ArP dragon's eyes into every socket (I know it's impossible, was just a test), and then replaced all those gems with strength gems (going from ~11500 AP to ~13000 AP), and the difference in total DPS between the two cases was only 1% (favoring ArP).

So yes, I'll tweak the estimates to reflect this, but the actual value for these stats are so close that they may appear "out of order" under certain circumstances because the difference in value is below a statistically meaningful threshold.

#58 Yellowsix

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 10:03 AM

The first version of the Moonkin Simulator is now available!

There are a couple things missing still, but I wanted to make it available for people to play around with it:

1. No item estimates for moonkins yet, still working on the new estimator code. Item lists appear in alphabetical order for now.
2. Replenishment has not been implemented.

Note: Treants are implemented as a single treant that hits 3x as hard rather than 3 individual treants, so keep that in mind when looking at the summary. This was purely for simplicity/efficiency, and should have no effect on total damage.


I am not nearly as experienced with moonkins as feral druids, so it is quite possible that there are inefficiencies in the default rotation. (Click on the "AUTO" button under the "ROTATION" section to see the logic it is using.) I feel that the simulator is coming out a bit low for DPS, though quick comparisons to combat logs show the various spells doing about the right amount of damage. We welcome feedback as we continue to play with it and finish it off. By the end of the week we should have all the rough edges polished up.

#59 Inaiwae

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 11:11 AM

It would be nice if stats and results of simulations are kept when new simulation is started. Like a "previous runs" panel or something.

edit: I noticed that when scrolling down using mouse wheel in a gear / gem selection, it always scrolled 2 pages down, so i had to scroll up again to get to the page i wanted. Mozilla 3.5.7, WinXP.

#60 Erdluf

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 02:08 PM

That is a very nice interface. A few minor things after a look at the Moonkin:

1) I click on Rotation Auto, then on Rotation Custom, then on "5. Wrath". The icons for Eclipse Lunar and Eclipse Solar are reversed (Lunar should be blue, Solar should be yellow).

2) For looking at some sequences, it would be nice to be able to scroll the log less than a full page.

3) It appears from the log that damage and procs from Wrath and Starfire occur when the cast begins. In the game, NG procs when a cast ends. Eclipse procs (and damage occurs) when the missile arrives (instant for SF, but typically some delay for Wrath).

4) In practice, when Eclipse procs, a Moonkin will cast one additional spell (already queued at the server) before switching to the new nuke.

5) In game, when a target gets hit by a large star from Starfall, they also take the splash damage (small star). The small star can crit, and Edit: this may be wrong: that is another chance to proc Nature's Grace.

6) In the log I'm looking at, there were six Wrath crits which were eligible to proc Lunar Eclipse. They all did. That should be only a 60% proc rate. Maybe I was just lucky.

7) The summary should flag that mana was an issue (perhaps say it dropped below 1k during the fight).

8) Mana regen says 176 (it doesn't say what the units are). Over a 1.27s period where nothing happened (a couple of DoT ticks), regen was 45, so I guess regen is 176 MP5. My Replenishment should be 246 MP5, and Improved BoW should be another 109, my gear (I logged out resto) had another 67 MP5, so regen should be at least 422. It looks like Replenishment was ignored.

9) The ability to save the log to my machine would be nice. (some csv format for loading into a spreadsheet).

Keep up the good work!




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