Jump to content


Photo

3.3 Compendium


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
175 replies to this topic

#21 ~Thalia~

~Thalia~

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 52 posts

Posted 09 January 2010 - 01:41 PM

It's actually 14% hit, you need to look at spell hit and not the other hit percentages. I'm quite certain that profile is not bis however, I'd switch the tier legs for the ones with haste and hit, , since haste > crit. Other then that I'd probably gear like that, might get the hit-wand and use the spirit-staff instead just for rDPS but have to look into that before making any decisions.

Yep double checked it later. Edited my first post.
I probably would change for the haste legs too.

#22 Naforce

Naforce

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 247 posts

Posted 09 January 2010 - 01:57 PM

How come nevermelting ice and phylactery show no dps-gain for destruction? If they are much weaker then the others, you might just as well remove them from the list.

#23 Madlax

Madlax

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 263 posts

Posted 09 January 2010 - 02:08 PM

Not tested in the last build(V 6) as they weren't implemented, adding it right now actually.
#Edit
Added now, detailed comparison can be found back at Simcraft

#24 Calidus

Calidus

    Stand back i'm going to try science!

  • Members
  • 1985 posts

Posted 09 January 2010 - 07:56 PM

Good point about it affect haunt and UA. Is their an easy way to edit the cast times of UA, haunt and drain soul is simcraft? I think it would interesting to see if adding a flat amount to the time to simulate the increased cast time from the pushback vs. the extra stat gains from none hit gear.

#25 jordancub

jordancub

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 10 posts

Posted 09 January 2010 - 10:54 PM

Removed.

#26 Mystearica

Mystearica

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 102 posts

Posted 10 January 2010 - 06:59 AM

One thing I noticed that you didn't have in your post that you may or may not want to add is Black Magic vs 63/81sp for the various specs.

#27 Rolcsi

Rolcsi

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 10 January 2010 - 01:09 PM

Madlax could you do another test for the orc warlocks with Command - passive
Damage dealt by Death Knight. Hunter and Warlock pets increased by 5%.
about 0/18/53 vs. 0/13/58, please?

#28 Madlax

Madlax

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 263 posts

Posted 10 January 2010 - 01:55 PM

As for the last 2 posts:
I haven't tried Black Magic simply because I haven't seen any situation where haste would out-scale spell power.

For the Orc racial:
In 13_58_imp the Imp does 1002 DPS
In 18_53 the Imp does 1122 DPS(thats spot on the 12% from talents)
So even of you add 5% on top, you´re looking at 1050 vs 1178.
A difference that doesn't really matter in numbers.
I just reran the 18_53 profile with LT glyph and spirit gear and it performs better than with Imp glyph.

Even when we go ahead with Blizzards latest(imho a water drop on the hot stone) suggestion of double the Empowered Imp to 30%(excluding orc) with a quick and dirty calc:
1132 vs 1268 DPS - I'm sorry to admit, that change won't really cut it on it's own.

#29 furcio

furcio

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 10 January 2010 - 08:21 PM

As for the last 2 posts:
I haven't tried Black Magic simply because I haven't seen any situation where haste would out-scale spell power.



Usually 63sp is better than black magic.


But it doesn't mean 63sp is always better than black magic. Haste/DPS function graph is not straight line. Just because there are some points on graph (haste values) when rotation is better. For example your shadowbolt casting time lets you recast ua when its exacly about to expire etc. So if scale factors say haste is very close to sp, I think it's best to check if black magic isn't acctually better with current gearset. Replacing item with haste can change it.

#30 Jona

Jona

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 4 posts

Posted 11 January 2010 - 01:03 AM

Affliction
56/0/15 outperforms 55/0/16 in most(thats like 90%) of the samples I took.
I will list both - but I suggest to take the 56/0/15 spec as affliction.


By how much does 56/0/15 outperform 55/0/16? Using DP instead of LT for mana, but still using LT for a slight SP buff seems like a lot of work for a small dps gain, so if the difference between these two specs is minimal, in a real raid situation, 55/0/16 may out-perform simply because the mana supply is not necessarily ever cut off entirely (if your pet dies, for example, you can't use DP), changing the way the spec is actually used.

I haven't done any independent testing, but it would seem that a 1 point difference for using DP over LT wouldn't significantly affect the spec's dps, even if it does affect scale factors. The only possible exception to this idea would be if a specific toon's gear was greatly skewed one way or another to match a spec's scale factors; i.e., a toon with a lot of spirit on its gear will have higher dps in 55/0/16, but a toon with higher crit will have higher dps in 56/0/15. Correct?

#31 Madlax

Madlax

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 263 posts

Posted 11 January 2010 - 07:10 AM

By how much does 56/0/15 outperform 55/0/16? Using DP instead of LT for mana, but still using LT for a slight SP buff seems like a lot of work for a small dps gain, so if the difference between these two specs is minimal, in a real raid situation, 55/0/16 may out-perform simply because the mana supply is not necessarily ever cut off entirely (if your pet dies, for example, you can't use DP), changing the way the spec is actually used.

I haven't done any independent testing, but it would seem that a 1 point difference for using DP over LT wouldn't significantly affect the spec's dps, even if it does affect scale factors. The only possible exception to this idea would be if a specific toon's gear was greatly skewed one way or another to match a spec's scale factors; i.e., a toon with a lot of spirit on its gear will have higher dps in 55/0/16, but a toon with higher crit will have higher dps in 56/0/15. Correct?


It is roughly 1% difference in optimized sets, but I think you got the wrong idea there.
56_00_15 doesn't LT, the LT glyph works with DP as well.

#32 jibi

jibi

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 11 January 2010 - 07:45 AM

Great post thanks a lot!

How does 4p T9 245/258 compare to 2p T10 251/264 and 2p T9?
<tba>
Note: This is a hard one, I appreciate input with live gear sets tested.


As stated earlier in the thread, when playing affliction, I also found out that 4pT9 [245] is superior to 2pT10 [251].
As for demono, I noticed 2pT10 + 2pT9 gives better results than 4pT9.
This is based on dummy tests, and raid experiences.

As a sidenote, I read in another thread that a rogue's ToT would benefit the rolling corruption when playing affli, is that a confirmed behavior? I wasn't able to prove so on dummies, but I might have done things the wrong way.

#33 Jona

Jona

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 4 posts

Posted 11 January 2010 - 10:00 AM

It is roughly 1% difference in optimized sets, but I think you got the wrong idea there.
56_00_15 doesn't LT, the LT glyph works with DP as well.


Ah, you got me there. I had forgotten about that change.

As a sidenote, I read in another thread that a rogue's ToT would benefit the rolling corruption when playing affli, is that a confirmed behavior? I wasn't able to prove so on dummies, but I might have done things the wrong way.


Any straight damage increase that affects Corruption should be carried over throughout the entire fight so long as Corruption is refreshed via Everlasting Affliction. This should include any damage increase from ToT to 4pt10. It is key to point out that "damage" is a term to be isolated from spell power or spell damage. Haste and spell power buffs/procs cannot be rolled, as they are recalculated when Corruption is refreshed. Crit and straight damage buffs are not recalculated. (This is why NMIC is considered a very good Affliction trinket.)

#34 Ghorogoth

Ghorogoth

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 11 January 2010 - 01:01 PM

Why do you use "Soul Leech" (13[14 with soul link for hardmodes] / 58[57]), and not the Sim.Craft "imp imp" 18/53 ?

Im quite fond of this issue, which i think EJ has had it wrong with for quite some time. The key to playing a warlock compared to other casters is learning the "Life Tapping".

- Life tap should be done when moving or when the encounter is NOT letting you dps, NOT when standing still and being able to dps.
*Some fights require longer movements --> Theese fights favours Favours "life tap + 18/53" spec (assuming spirit based gear).
* Other fights (Beasts, Mimiron for example) lets you: (A) Life tap to full mana inbetween phases. (B) move for 1 GCD every 10-20 (conflagrate used when moving) --> Theese fights favour "immolate/imp + 13/58" spec.

- Demonology and to some extent too Affliction (not "Dark Pact" aff spec) req more focus on mana returns, meaning u "need" to Life Tap once every 15-35 sec (forcing lifetaps while standing still), not to go "oom" in the first few minutes.

- Destruction with "imp. Soul Leech" has ever since a gear lvl of 230+ average (roughly) not required none to very few life taps in most fight (80% plus. Only long fights require soul leech warlocks to use lifetap not to go "oom").
* Using Life Tap glyph implies you should life tap, even when u dont need the mana, to gain 75-180 SP (depending on spirit value you have)
* Soul Leech scales incredible well with intellect. It has come to the point that with full raid buff (sufficient replenishment), destruction warlocks having Soul Leech DONT have to lifetap for several minutes (fights that last roughly 5min or less = no taps).

- This spec revolves around immolate (its the spell with highest priority).
* Glyph of Immolate boosts both immolate and conflagerate with 10% damage (NOT immolate initial damage).
* Theese 2 spells counts for 25-35% of your total damage as destruction, hence a 2.5-3.5% damage boost.
- When running from fire (or similar), your immolate is up and damaging and you can use conflagrate aswell
* Immolate = benefit cloose to 100% from the glyph = 10% more damage on the spell you damage with while moving. (ME: Conflagrate = 12k average damage, Immolate = 12.5k avarage damage. 12 + 12.5*0,73,5(% damage of the dot on immolate = 21,2 * 0,1 = 2,12. Meaning 2120 more damage from immolate glyph.)
* Life tap glyph = Immolate: (75-180)*0.80(cofficient for immolate dot) = 60-144. Conflagrate: (60-144)*0,75(cofficient for conflagrate immolate conversion) = 45-108. adding both = 105 to 252. Add SP taken debuff (13%) 105*1.13 to 252*1.13 = 118,5 to 285 more damage, compared to 2120 on immolate glyph.

* Moving for 3+ GCD's (Conflagrate > Life tap > Corruption > more life taps) = Favours "life tap + 18/53" spec.
* Moving for 1[2] GCD's (Conflagrate > [Corruption/Lifetap depening on need of mana, normally no need)]) = Favours "immolate/imp + 13/58" spec.
* NOT moving at all or once per minute or less (normal rotation w/o using lifetap) = Favours "immolate/imp + 13/58" spec.


Conclusion: Depening on the amount of movement required in the encounter is what determin the way you should life tap. Certain fights favours "lifetap + NO soul leech" spec , but in the majority of fights "immolate/imp + soul leech" spec is surperior. Less lifetapping helps your healers too, which can be very much needed in certain hardmodes (Anub P3 25man hc is a great example)

ps. wrote this out of the top of my head, so plz correct numerical and possible logical errors.

/Ghorogoth, MoM, Silvermoon

#35 Cahrin

Cahrin

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 42 posts

Posted 11 January 2010 - 07:32 PM

@36

Run simcraft with the varying specs and glyphs under both PW and HS scenarios and post your results. As it stands, you've provided little more than napkin math that is by no means conclusive to one spec being better or worse than the other in any given scenario. I would imagine the HS simulation would best suit your point, so I would suggest starting there and ensuring that 18/53 w/ LT does in fact beat out 13/58 with whatever glyph is optimal based on the gear sets you're using.

#36 Madlax

Madlax

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 263 posts

Posted 11 January 2010 - 11:11 PM

http://chart.apis.go...&chts=000000,20

As per general request - this is the whole Warlock collection(not orc) run including 2 Demo lock profiles(it's however applying a 100% uptime DP, need to fix that still).
I'm getting a rough feeling that any Affliction buffs should rather be minor adjustments.
Destro and Demo need their help badly.

#37 dwyak

dwyak

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 6 posts

Posted 11 January 2010 - 11:27 PM

As per general request - this is the whole Warlock collection(not orc) run including 2 Demo lock profiles(it's however applying a 100% uptime DP, need to fix that still).
I'm getting a rough feeling that any Affliction buffs should rather be minor adjustments.
Destro and Demo need their help badly.


Will a different uptime of DP change the ranking (I would guess not)?

According to what GC has mentioned, both afflic and demo seem to receive ~4% additional dmg, while destro is going to get less than 2% (assuming the imp does 10% of the total dmg). Of course, this is a very rough estimation. We definitely need to do some simcrafting for more accurate data.

#38 Heatus

Heatus

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 13 January 2010 - 05:10 AM

Wouldn't Gunship Captain's Mittens be better than Sanctified Dark Coven Gloves on the BiS list?

#39 greywizard

greywizard

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 13 January 2010 - 06:46 AM

Wouldn't Gunship Captain's Mittens be better than Sanctified Dark Coven Gloves on the BiS list?


the problem with the gloves is that you want the 4 piece and the stronger of the 2 weak T10 pieces are the gloves over the pants. so for 4 pc t10 you take chest helm shoulders gloves and take the really nice pants.

#40 Bokkie

Bokkie

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 5 posts

Posted 13 January 2010 - 07:31 AM

I dont know if anyone pointed out to you (original poster) yet but the set you have for the destro BIS for 0/13/58 is missing 3% hit. As that spec (for horde) you need 14% hit to be hit caped in raids. As allianc eyou only need 13% hit. The gear you have there only has 11.5% hit which leaves a cap of 2.5%miss rate is which isnt good. The set needs to be redone.

Edit: The same goes for demonology, missing 2.75% hit.


Wowhead does some weird stuff with their rating to % calculation with hit. If you check the rating you see it's the correct number.
To test it, look up your own character on the wowhead database and see for yourself.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users