Jump to content


Photo

3.3 Compendium


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
175 replies to this topic

#41 dedmonwakeen

dedmonwakeen

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 1,302 posts

Posted 13 January 2010 - 04:49 PM

Perhaps you are not doing as good a job timing when to cut off your drain soul as Simcraft does. Remember, it's a perfect player. We are not.

On that note, perhaps the compendium would do well to include a recommended castbar or timer mod to assist warlocks in estimating the timing of ticks of drain soul to optimize that part of the rotation, which is probably the toughest thing to do well when you consider ever-changing haste values week to week and even moment to moment during a fight.


It should be also noted that of the three cast-types (under-gcd, over-gcd, channeled) SimC slaps channeled with the largest latency penalty.

You can increase this penalty further via channel_lag=some_decimal_value_in_seconds.

#42 Jenren22

Jenren22

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 45 posts

Posted 13 January 2010 - 05:23 PM

Perhaps you are not doing as good a job timing when to cut off your drain soul as Simcraft does. Remember, it's a perfect player. We are not.

On that note, perhaps the compendium would do well to include a recommended castbar or timer mod to assist warlocks in estimating the timing of ticks of drain soul to optimize that part of the rotation, which is probably the toughest thing to do well when you consider ever-changing haste values week to week and even moment to moment during a fight.


Fairly old but this post still applies:
http://elitistjerks....p5/#post1012433

Basically notifies you of each Drain Soul tick. Has really helped me out with the execution phase.

#43 Madlax

Madlax

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 263 posts

Posted 14 January 2010 - 12:35 AM

So, a heads up for the Demonology community.
Warlocomotif and myself(Big thanks for explaining this honestly not easy topic to me) have gone through the demo profile today and optimized it heavily towards raid benefit.
I'm not sure if I will keep the pDPS profile up yet, but it will likely undergo a few changes soon.
The profile we came up with is Profiler - Wowhead which is very very balanced towards pDPS and rDPS - it gives a fair benefit for what it sacrifices in personal DPS.
I will edit the main post and add a few lines to that topic hopefully tomorrow.

#44 Cherri

Cherri

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 22 posts

Posted 14 January 2010 - 10:11 AM

So, a heads up for the Demonology community.
Warlocomotif and myself(Big thanks for explaining this honestly not easy topic to me) have gone through the demo profile today and optimized it heavily towards raid benefit.
I'm not sure if I will keep the pDPS profile up yet, but it will likely undergo a few changes soon.
The profile we came up with is Profiler - Wowhead which is very very balanced towards pDPS and rDPS - it gives a fair benefit for what it sacrifices in personal DPS.
I will edit the main post and add a few lines to that topic hopefully tomorrow.


I wonder how did you calculate the raid dps benefit over the personal dps benefit. I'm still not convinced that it's good to go for 4T10 or any T10 since there is 0 spirit on them and the +hit items have +crit too, so all 5 pcs are terribly itemized for demo.

#45 Guest_Alkii_*

Guest_Alkii_*
  • Guests

Posted 14 January 2010 - 03:10 PM

I wonder how did you calculate the raid dps benefit over the personal dps benefit. I'm still not convinced that it's good to go for 4T10 or any T10 since there is 0 spirit on them and the +hit items have +crit too, so all 5 pcs are terribly itemized for demo.


The profile that was linked; Profiler - Wowhead, has off pieces with Spirit. This makes up for the Spirit lost by taking the T10 gear (BiS has 873 Spirit for Demo). Also, with as much Haste seen on the BiS profile (947 Haste without Spellstone), the gear is itemized very well to suit this spec.

#46 Warlocomotif

Warlocomotif

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 462 posts

Posted 14 January 2010 - 03:20 PM

I wonder how did you calculate the raid dps benefit over the personal dps benefit. I'm still not convinced that it's good to go for 4T10 or any T10 since there is 0 spirit on them and the +hit items have +crit too, so all 5 pcs are terribly itemized for demo.


Most of them weren't actually far off from best in slot (the head was esspecially close). Also estimated uptime of 4xT10 is ~39%, which means ~3.9% damage. At 10k dps, thats about 390 DPS. To make up for a difference like that your replacements would have to do that + the DPS bonus from 2xT10. It's a given that atlest 2 of your alternatives your alternatives will need to be heavy on hit (=0 spirit), so you're basically stick replacing 2 items with spirit gear and 2 items with hit+haste (ideally) and you somehow have to gain in the area of 500 dps from that- you just won't.

The T10 bonus is simply really good, and although the items have no spirit, you'd only be able to pick items with spirit for 2 out of 4 slots anyway because spirit+hit items don't exist in ICC. Lets say you replaced the crit on gloves/legs with haste, and the crit on head/shoulders with spirit. You'd gain 212 haste, 204 spirit, and lose 416 crit (Mind you, items with those stats dont exist)- resuls: 111.36 personal dps from crit->haste, 27.21 personal dps from crit to spirit, 180.06 raid dps from crit->spirit. Total: 318.63 DPS, meaning you gain less DPS than you lost from losing the 4 piece bonus alone- yet you'd also be losing the 2 piece bonus.

Math:
Scale factors: SpellDamage=1.7642, HasteRating=1.6812, Spirit=1.2893, CritRating=1.1559, Intellect=0.4449, Stamina=0.2684
212 Crit->Haste: 212*(1.6812-1.1559)=111.36 dps
204 Crit->Spirit: 204*(1.2893-1.1559)=27.21 dps
204 spirit rDPS: 204*0.59*1.1*0.1*8*1.7=180.06 dps

Explanation of the bottom one:
204=spirit gained
0.59=glyph of lifetap+felarmor*demonic aegis
1.1=blessing of kings
0.1=demonic pact only takes 10% of your spellpower
8=8 caster dps
1.7=average caster dps spell power scale factor.

So even if you swapped those stats around in the most ideal possible way, you still wouldn't gain rDPS.
There's 1 caveat; I don't think we're 100% on wether or not 4xT10 has an internal cooldown/how long it would be if there is one.

Also a footnote; although you could argue for higher number of dps casters/average spellpower scale factor- and you might end up with more rDPS than the 4 piece bonus, theres 3 more things to consider:
[1] These items don't exist.
[2] You'd also lose the DPS from the 2 piece bonus
[3] The value of spirit/haste would drop relative to the value of crit as a result gaining more of them and losing crit.
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when it's open.

#47 TheRabidSniper

TheRabidSniper

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 37 posts

Posted 14 January 2010 - 06:17 PM

(Madlax and Warloco, thank you much for the BiS list effort)

One question on the Demo rDPS BiS list: you're using 7 SP/Hit gems; is that the most efficient way to attain Horde-level necessary hit rating? There's no other single Hit item that could make up most of that Hit rating more efficiently than having to use all of those gem slots for it?

#48 Madlax

Madlax

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 263 posts

Posted 14 January 2010 - 06:22 PM

We found that this is likely the best way to get the hit level.
There is the option of a ring switch - but it comes at a cost.
Other than that there isn't really any good option without sacrificing gain.

#49 Warlocomotif

Warlocomotif

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 462 posts

Posted 14 January 2010 - 07:36 PM

(Madlax and Warloco, thank you much for the BiS list effort)

One question on the Demo rDPS BiS list: you're using 7 SP/Hit gems; is that the most efficient way to attain Horde-level necessary hit rating? There's no other single Hit item that could make up most of that Hit rating more efficiently than having to use all of those gem slots for it?


Think of it this way, we have 5x SP+Hit.
If we replaced an item to gain 50 hit, we would then gem each of those 5 sockets as pure spellpower.

What would we gain: 7x11sp.
What would we lose: 7 socket bonuses, 70 miscelaneous stats- most likely spirit.

Why spirit? Because there can't be hit+spirit on gear, meaning that if we want to gain hit we'll likely have to sacrifice spirit. There's 1 item without spirit outside of the tier pieces on our list, thats the boots. Replacing them would involve losing atleast 13 itemlevels (-18sp, -80haste, +6crit, +64hit) and would still leave us slightly shy from the hitcap.

If we sacrificed spirit for hit, say we lost 70 spirit and gained 70 hit, we would as said lose 7 socket bonuses, which is 4x5, 2x7, and 1x"4". How so 4? Well the blue socket on the chest costs us 5 spellpower from the socket bonus, the remaining 4 is what you 'gain' from the yellow socket.

So, +7x11sp, -70 spirit, -4x5sp, -2x7sp, -1x4sp = +39sp, -70spirit.
70 spirit translates into ~45sp (70*0.59*1.1), meaning we get more spellpower this way.
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when it's open.

#50 Madlax

Madlax

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 263 posts

Posted 14 January 2010 - 10:11 PM

So, from my PoV the Compendium is in a pretty good shape right now.
If anyone is missing anything urgent/important we should include or look into still, give me a PM and we can look into the matter and make some additions.

One of the good suggestions I got was to add Optec's Demonology video.
YouTube - The 3.3 PvE Demonology Warlock Guide
It is very informative and explains the Demo spec very neatly, the DPS part starts at 2:10 but it is worth watching the whole movie.

#51 Madlax

Madlax

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 263 posts

Posted 16 January 2010 - 11:04 PM

First round of check-through:
Affliction 56_00_15 in a Demo warlock setup changes to NIC as 2nd BiS trinket.
(This would be the point where Blizzard rethinks the crit-rolling as intended statement, again).
Rechecked, added tier deviation. Updated WoWhead.
56_00_15 done.

Affliction 55_00_16 in a Demo warlock setup changes to NIC as 2nd BiS trinket as well.
Switched neck/offhand to more spirit gear, crit-spirit is more balanced now in scaling and it's a slight gain(so minor that I won't recalc trinkets)
Rechecked, added tier deviation. Updated WoWhead.
55_00_16 done.

That's it for today, Destro and Demo tomorrow.

#52 Pullo

Pullo

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 7 posts

Posted 17 January 2010 - 02:30 AM

Having tried 56_0_15 this week for the first time in ICC 25 and ICC 10, there's a glaring problem I have -- Professor Putricide in particular.

Life Tapping when running has always been a way to boost your dps since you're going to be out of range of the boss at times. Obviously with 56_0_15 you're using Dark Pact.

The problem lies in that, on this fight, and other fights where you're forced to move out of range of the boss, you're often moving out of range of your pet, which makes Dark Pact unusable. You're then forced to Life Tap, which defeats the purpose of the spec and gearing, since you're getting less mana return from Life Tap because you're not gearing spirit.

Neither affliction spec takes Grim Reach (which I assume works with Dark Pact).

This is one scenario that I would assume is hard to model in simulationcraft.

#53 Vodkablock

Vodkablock

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 4 posts

Posted 17 January 2010 - 03:01 AM

Having tried 56_0_15 this week for the first time in ICC 25 and ICC 10, there's a glaring problem I have -- Professor Putricide in particular.

Life Tapping when running has always been a way to boost your dps since you're going to be out of range of the boss at times. Obviously with 56_0_15 you're using Dark Pact.

The problem lies in that, on this fight, and other fights where you're forced to move out of range of the boss, you're often moving out of range of your pet, which makes Dark Pact unusable. You're then forced to Life Tap, which defeats the purpose of the spec and gearing, since you're getting less mana return from Life Tap because you're not gearing spirit.

Neither affliction spec takes Grim Reach (which I assume works with Dark Pact).

This is one scenario that I would assume is hard to model in simulationcraft.


hmm i must admit i not had the range problem i did putri 10 man as afflication (normally demo in 25 man) and found it fine and no range issues at all, on green ooze i dont see how your pet can be out of range and on the brown ooze if your not targetted moving to the middle of the room gives you a position where you can nuke down the add as a range and also means you shouldn't be out of range of healers/pet/putri etc etc

#54 necro_potence

necro_potence

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 41 posts

Posted 17 January 2010 - 04:22 AM

Can you specify better what corruption keeps rolling when refreshed?
For example, if as you say it keeps ISB it should also keep totem of wrath, moonkin aura etc.
Also, if it rolls trick of the trades because it is a damage increasing effect, will it also roll the extra damage from ebon plaguebringer et similia?

#55 Pullo

Pullo

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 7 posts

Posted 17 January 2010 - 04:57 AM

hmm i must admit i not had the range problem i did putri 10 man as afflication (normally demo in 25 man) and found it fine and no range issues at all, on green ooze i dont see how your pet can be out of range and on the brown ooze if your not targetted moving to the middle of the room gives you a position where you can nuke down the add as a range and also means you shouldn't be out of range of healers/pet/putri etc etc


Well during these fights, I kept my pet on the boss the whole time, as it would be a dps loss to have it change targets.
I guess it depends on your guild's strategy and the fight.

#56 Voraster

Voraster

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 6 posts

Posted 17 January 2010 - 06:34 AM

Unless I am missing something. I think a mistake has been made in creating the Demo rDPS profile, as it doesn't seem to provide a superior raid benefit. I'll use Wowhead's numbers, although I suspect they may not be 100% accurate.

pDPS Demonic Pact Benefit
[(1.1 Kings)*554 Spirit*0.59 Fel Armor/Life Tap+3597SP]* 0.1 Demonic Pact = 395 SP/caster


rDPS Demonic Pact Benefit
[(1.1 Kings)*873 Spirit*0.59 Fel Armor/Life Tap+3338 SP]*0.1 Demonic Pact = 390 SP/caster

Am I missing something glaring? It would be much easier to gear for the various specs if we didn't have to consider this "rDPS" spec.

#57 Marlucia

Marlucia

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 17 January 2010 - 07:02 AM

Unless I am missing something. I think a mistake has been made in creating the Demo rDPS profile, as it doesn't seem to provide a superior raid benefit. I'll use Wowhead's numbers, although I suspect they may not be 100% accurate.

pDPS Demonic Pact Benefit
[(1.1 Kings)*554 Spirit*0.59 Fel Armor/Life Tap+3597SP]* 0.1 Demonic Pact = 395 SP/caster


rDPS Demonic Pact Benefit
[(1.1 Kings)*873 Spirit*0.59 Fel Armor/Life Tap+3338 SP]*0.1 Demonic Pact = 390 SP/caster

Am I missing something glaring? It would be much easier to gear for the various specs if we didn't have to consider this "rDPS" spec.

The enchants on the pDPS set include lightweave, which is treated by the wowhead profiler as 295 spellpower, for some reason. If you set the enchants such that they're comparable, the rDPS set comes out with about 200 spellpower more than the pDPS set.

#58 Voraster

Voraster

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 6 posts

Posted 17 January 2010 - 07:29 AM

That's interesting, but a 15 sp gain per caster isn't really substantial unless the specs are within 100-200 dps (and then it would only be a trade-off). Hardly worth gearing for, because it makes off-specs substantially weaker as well. I know in the first post it's stated that there's more testing that needs to be done. I just wanted to submit this into the discussion.

#59 Warlocomotif

Warlocomotif

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 462 posts

Posted 17 January 2010 - 09:54 AM

If you compare the 2 profiles its essentially 300 haste vs 300 spirit. Yes it's worth gearing for spirit over haste.
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when it's open.

#60 needtoknowmore

needtoknowmore

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 17 January 2010 - 10:24 AM

This might be a dumb question but I'm gonna ask anyways, I know that you pop a wild magic potion before a pull as affliction but during bloodlust do i use potion of speed over potion of wild magic even though im already at 700haste with spellstone? Do i pop potion of speed over wild magic as destro during bloodlust as well? Thanks.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users