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[Enhancement]: Critical cap analysis (Tow/HotC)


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#21 Nevets_69

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 07:45 PM

I guess my issue with ignoring the crit depression is that you're pushing hits off of the hit table; whereas it seems to be more worthwhile to push misses off the hit table (with more hit rating) or to just get more swings (with haste) or else just hit harder (with AP).

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the hit table for white attacks, but according to Synkronos' post here it looks like this:

Hit Table| |
Miss| |
Dodge|(zero through Expertise)|
Parry|(zero through positioning)|
Glancing Blow|(24% always)|
Block|(zero through positioning)|
Critical hit|(reduced by 4.8% by crit depression)|
Ordinary hit| |
Guaranteed 4.8% hit|(from crit depression)|


If I've made a mistake somewhere along the way, please enlighten me.
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#22 Vlyxnol

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 08:16 PM

I guess my issue with ignoring the crit depression is that you're pushing hits off of the hit table; whereas it seems to be more worthwhile to push misses off the hit table (with more hit rating) or to just get more swings (with haste) or else just hit harder (with AP).

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the hit table for white attacks, but according to Synkronos' post here it looks like this:

Hit Table| |
Miss| |
Dodge|(zero through Expertise)|
Parry|(zero through positioning)|
Glancing Blow|(24% always)|
Block|(zero through positioning)|
Critical hit|(reduced by 4.8% by crit depression)|
Ordinary hit| |
Guaranteed 4.8% hit|(from crit depression)|


If I've made a mistake somewhere along the way, please enlighten me.


This is exactly how I understand it as well. Landsoul from Vodka does a great job in summing it up in this post.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Testing Reveals New Melee Hit Table Behavior
Quote = Adkar (Deathknight) "Boy this would be tough for other classes"

Quote = Rouncer (Enh Shaman) " However there is a big difference between that and sticking shocks into a macro with SS and LL and spinning a mousewheel."

^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Hey! I do that!

#23 Cobs

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 08:40 PM

So the cap is; 100% - 24% (Glancing) - miss rate - dodge rate - parry rate = Crit Cap. Just that when you are at that cap you will still see 4.8% of your attacks show up as hits anyway.


Ok I will use some round numbers here. Lets assume a Horde shaman with 368 hit for 13% hit and expertise capped.

That is 100% - 24% Glancing - 14% misses = 62% crit cap.

Now, let's say through static buffs (assume either no ED or 100% uptime ED to get to there) and gear you have exactly 62% crit. You would see 24% glancing blows, 14% misses, 57.2% crits and 4.8% hits.

Now let's say you have exactly 57.2% crit rating. Will you see either

A) 24% glancing, 14% misses, 57.2% crits, 4.8% hits

or

B) 24% glancing, 14% misses, 52.4% crits, 9.6% hits.

A conversion theory supports option B), while a "guaranteed 4.8% hit" theory supports A). I'm looking towards a B) theory and re reading my post it seems sort of redundant now. But seeing as we always observe a lower crit chance than what our paper dolls state (factoring in HoTC ToW) then the B) case must be true and 76% - miss/dodge/parry is the crit cap and not to worry about the depression.

[e] wow a lot of intervening posts. I'll leave this here incase another viewpoint helps.

#24 Rouncer

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 09:01 PM

I guess my issue with ignoring the crit depression is that you're pushing hits off of the hit table; whereas it seems to be more worthwhile to push misses off the hit table (with more hit rating) or to just get more swings (with haste) or else just hit harder (with AP).

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the hit table for white attacks, but according to Synkronos' post here it looks like this:

Hit Table| |
Miss| |
Dodge|(zero through Expertise)|
Parry|(zero through positioning)|
Glancing Blow|(24% always)|
Block|(zero through positioning)|
Critical hit|(reduced by 4.8% by crit depression)|
Ordinary hit| |
Guaranteed 4.8% hit|(from crit depression)|


If I've made a mistake somewhere along the way, please enlighten me.


I'm thinking a better way to visualize the table would be

[table=head]Hit Table| |
Miss|(reduced by hit rating) |
Dodge|(zero through Expertise)|
Parry|(zero through positioning)|
Glancing Blow|(24% always)|
Block|(zero through positioning)|
Guaranteed 4.8% hit|(due to level difference)|
Regular Hit|(can be converted into crit)|

As crit really doesn't have a place in the table, it can only affect regular hit and convert it into crits.

#25 Nevets_69

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 10:25 PM

I'm thinking a better way to visualize the table would be

[table=head]Hit Table


As crit really doesn't have a place in the table, it can only affect regular hit and convert it into crits.


Alright, after reading your post at least a dozen times. Working out the combat table in excel, and reading quite a few posts from other class forums, here is what I've got:

[table=head]Hit Table|
Miss|(reduced by hit rating)
Dodge|(zero through Expertise)
Parry|(zero through positioning)
Glancing Blow|(24% always)
Block|(zero through positioning
Crit|(4.8% less than what your paperdoll says)|
Regular Hit|(everything that is left)

The catch is this: "Regular Hit" will never go below 4.8%, this is the effect of the crit depression, which converts that 4.8% crit into hit. Even if you had 100% crit rate on your paperdoll, you would still see 4.8% of your attacks land as "Regular Hits".

So, to calculate the crit cap for your own character you just need to know your miss rate.

It works out to:
Crit cap = 100 - (miss rate) - (glancing blows)

Updating the macros that I posted at the beginning of the threat yields:

Without 3% crit boss debuff:
/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Room below crit cap: "..100-(27-(GetCombatRatingBonus(6)+6))-(24)-GetCritChance())

With 3% crit boss debuff:
/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Room below crit cap: "..100-(27-(GetCombatRatingBonus(6)+6))-(24)-(GetCritChance()+3))

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#26 Rouncer

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 02:09 AM

Yours means the same thing as mine, just yours requires an * to explain that 4.8% hit can't be removed and mine doesn't. For some reason I think mine matches the way Blizzard coded it better then yours but it's a moot point.

The big thing is that there is no reason to think about the relationship between the crit cap and the crit depression. You get use out of every drop up till your cap, which is dependent on your miss rate.

Basically everything that came out of all that testing is that there is no reason to every have any crit above the cap. Used to be that people thought if they had crit over that point it would eat into the crit depression and eventually allow them to remove hits from the table. That is not the case. Which is why I like my version of the table better since crits can't push anything off the table at all. All they are is converted regular hits. If you have no more regular hits to convert then you can't have any more crits.

One table, no * necessary. Basically the same as my last table but hopefully a bit more understandable.

[table=head]Hit Table| |
Miss|(reduced by hit rating) |
Dodge|(zero through Expertise)|
Parry|(zero through positioning)|
Glancing Blow|(24% always - due to level difference)|
Block|(zero through positioning)|
Crit Depression|(4.8% always - due to level difference)|
Regular Hit|(can be critical strikes)|

As for your conclusions they seem to be on the money and the macros look great. I'm sure Levva will have Rawr showing the proper crit cap in the next version and EnhSim already appears to be handling it correctly. All the shaman reading this need to know is that simple equation, Crit cap = 100 - (miss rate) - (glancing blows), and that they should gem/gear for enough additional hit so their personal crit cap is always equal or better then their crit rate including all raid buffs, debuffs and the 9% from Elemental Devastation.

#27 Schwolop

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 05:39 AM

I'm not sure exactly what analysis you wanted Levva, but this graph is for my character sheet, swapping out all bright cardinals and stark ametrines for rigid king's ambers in order to reach this amount of hit. I just got the chest and swapped to this helm today, and lost a lot of hit rating and reached the crit soft cap as a result - this discussion is quite timely.

The graph shows that if I drop 70 hit rating I'd be below the spell cap with appropriately steep curve. If I gain another 25ish rating I'd mitigate the crit depression (which Rawr tells me is currently 0.76% over the soft cap) and then the slope is reduced again. Only after another 60ish hit rating do 2AP and haste become the top stats again.

Posted Image

I can edit with the Rawr XML and/or EnhSim config file if you need it.

#28 Levva

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 04:07 PM

Ok to make sure I code it right in Rawr lets see from your gear Rouncer...

[table=head]Hit Table| Value |
Miss|7.95|(reduced by hit rating)
Dodge|0.00|(zero through Expertise)
Parry|0.00|(zero through positioning)
Glancing Blow|24.00|(24% always - due to level difference)
Block|0.00|(zero through positioning)
Crit Depression|4.80|(4.8% always - due to level difference)
Regular Hit|3.90|(can be critical strikes)
Crits|59.35|(usable crit from gear)

However should we include :

[table=head]Hit Table| Value |
ED Uptime Av|8.04|(average crit granted by uptime of ED)

This would give a new table of :
[table=head]Hit Table| Value |
Miss|7.95|(reduced by hit rating)
Dodge|0.00|(zero through Expertise)
Parry|0.00|(zero through positioning)
Glancing Blow|24.00|(24% always - due to level difference)
Block|0.00|(zero through positioning)
Crit Depression|4.80|(4.8% always - due to level difference)
Regular Hit|0.00|(can be critical strikes)
ED Uptime Av|8.04|(average crit granted by uptime of ED)
Crits|55.21|(usable crit from gear)
Pushed off table|4.14|(unused crit)


I've fixed the issue in the earlier interim Rawr.Enhance release it was double dipping on the 4.8% crit depression. I've also modified the White hit table to show the effects of over crit cap.

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#29 Darksong

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 05:16 PM

Would it be possible to have rawr show the crit with buffs but without procs, "average" crit with procs (including average excess crit figured from average uptime of elemental devastation, and any trinket or other procs) and the "max" crit (including "max" excess crit, from everything that can provide crit proccing at the same time)?
This is just something I'd be interested in seeing, although it might not be completely meaningful for determining gear/spec choices.

#30 Rouncer

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 05:39 PM

Current version of Rawr (after applying the previous fix) already includes Elemental Devastation.

Rawr Paper Doll - 39.29%
SoE - 41.42%
LotP - 46.42%
Heart of the Crusader - 49.42%
Kings - 51.31%
Ele D - 58.45%

Only thing that is strange is that my Paper Doll on the Armory says 43.48% melee crit, or a difference of 4.19%. Adding that to the Rawr Total puts me at 62.64%

Giving us a table of


[table=head]Hit Table| Value |
Miss|7.95%|(reduced by hit rating)
Dodge|0.00|(zero through Expertise)
Parry|0.00|(zero through positioning)
Glancing Blow|24.00%|(24% always - due to level difference)
Block|0.00|(zero through positioning)
Critical Strikes|62.64%|(4.8% will show as hits)
Regular Hit|5.41%|

Regular hit also equals the amount of crit I can add before I reach the cap at that level of miss.


Would it be possible to have rawr show the crit with buffs but without procs, "average" crit with procs (including average excess crit figured from average uptime of elemental devastation, and any trinket or other procs) and the "max" crit (including "max" excess crit, from everything that can provide crit proccing at the same time)?
This is just something I'd be interested in seeing, although it might not be completely meaningful for determining gear/spec choices.


I think Levva's solution is potentially more useful. Have it show us both the hard cap (which should include Elemental Devastation) and a soft cap (trinket procs).


Edit - played with the latest version of Rawr (the update Levva attached) and it is still showing the crit cap as too low. Crit cap really is just 100 - 24% - dodge - miss rate.

Only thing people need to know about the crit depression is that they will still see hits even if they get to the crit cap but they will get full value from all the crit rating up to that point. That's because the crit depression is active the whole way too. So if they were white hit capped and expertise capped and had 70% crit, they would only be seeing 65.2% of their attacks as crits. If they got up to 76% crit, they would see 71.2% of their attacks crit. So that 6% crit from 70% to 76% was effective. If they went up to 77% crit, however, they would still only see 71.2% of their attacks crit meaning that 1% crit from 76% to 77% did nothing.

#31 Levva

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 06:31 PM

Edit - played with the latest version of Rawr (the update Levva attached) and it is still showing the crit cap as too low. Crit cap really is just 100 - 24% - dodge - miss rate.

Only thing people need to know about the crit depression is that they will still see hits even if they get to the crit cap but they will get full value from all the crit rating up to that point. That's because the crit depression is active the whole way too. So if they were white hit capped and expertise capped and had 70% crit, they would only be seeing 65.2% of their attacks as crits. If they got up to 76% crit, they would see 71.2% of their attacks crit. So that 6% crit from 70% to 76% was effective. If they went up to 77% crit, however, they would still only see 71.2% of their attacks crit meaning that 1% crit from 76% to 77% did nothing.


Not seeing this the code is now

private void SetCritValues(float chanceCrit)
        {
            // first set max crit chance 76% - miss chance (ie 100% - 24% glancing - miss chance) 
            // see http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t76785-crit_depression_combat_table/
            chanceWhiteCritMH = Math.Min(chanceCrit, 1f - GlancingRate - chanceWhiteMissMH);
            chanceWhiteCritOH = Math.Min(chanceCrit, 1f - GlancingRate - chanceWhiteMissOH);
            chanceYellowCritMH = Math.Min(chanceCrit, 1f - chanceYellowMissMH);
            chanceYellowCritOH = Math.Min(chanceCrit, 1f - chanceYellowMissOH);
            if (chanceCrit > 1f - GlancingRate - chanceWhiteMissMH)
                overMeleeCritCap = chanceCrit - (1f - GlancingRate - chanceWhiteMissMH);
            else
                overMeleeCritCap = 0f;
            // now apply crit depression
            chanceWhiteCritMH = Math.Max(0.01f, chanceWhiteCritMH - whiteCritDepression);
            chanceWhiteCritOH = Math.Max(0.01f, chanceWhiteCritOH - whiteCritDepression);
            chanceYellowCritMH = Math.Max(0.01f, chanceYellowCritMH - yellowCritDepression);
            chanceYellowCritOH = Math.Max(0.01f, chanceYellowCritOH - yellowCritDepression);
        }

where chanceWhiteMissMH includes dodge & parry. ie: what it does now is pass in the crit value to apply checks against the cap which is determined as 1 - GlancingRate - WhiteMiss - dodge - parry. Where dodge & parry are typically zero. It then checks if that value was capped and if so sets the overMeleeCritCap variable. Finally it removes the crit depression from the crit value and keeps that at a minimum of 1%.

What is wrong with that?


Edit: I've added a new build r33408 so that you can test with the extra couple of tweaks. You said something about gearing choices showing wrong and something about the crit cap being wrong but not where I should look to find what is wrong, nor any examples I can test. So I struggling to understand you.

Edit 2 : It is perfectly possible to create a new gem - say lets call it Rouncer's insane crit gem - and give it 100 Crit rating. Then we could add that gem into your gear to achieve exactly the caps we want to see. ie: create several gems and setup the gear with them to experiment to see exactly what happens in those test cases at the limits. If it needs a gem with 121 crit on it then create a gem with 121 crit on it.

If we can device a series of such test cases we can verify that Rawr is giving the right result for each test case.

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Please use the EnhSim by Ziff & others to simulate what gear, priorities etc are the best dps. You can use ShockAndAwe to export your paperdoll stats to EnhSim.

#32 Nevets_69

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 06:53 PM

Levva, I'm not sure how much work this would be, but is it possible to display the attack table in Rawr? Possibly on the same tab where we go for the graph of stats?

You could have 2 separate columns, one for static buffs and one with all procs so people could see how much of their procs are being wasted (you could have an 3rd column for ED only proc'd if you felt it warranted).

I'm not sure how much work this would be, if it's feasible, I'll happily create a ticket on the Rawr codeplex page, just thought I'd get your opinion first.
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#33 Rouncer

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 06:56 PM

I think it's working correctly. It's just showing up on the mouseover as over the crit cap too soon. It's showing as "over the crit cap" when you hit the range of the unremovable hit which is going to confuse people as there is no reason to worry about crit until you hit the true crit cap.


100 - Capped Hit/Dodge/Parry
|
76 (after glancing) - where it should tell people they have hit the crit cap
|
71.2 - where it is telling people they are over the crit cap

What would be great if it would say on that mouseover these things, depending on your paper doll.

- Over the Hard Crit Cap - if glancing + miss + crit > 100
- Over the Soft Crit Cap - if glancing + miss + crit + (*) > 100

Where * would equal the full value for Elemental Devastation and Trinket Procs and it would break them down by which and how much. So if using Dark Matter and over the crit cap by 0.5% when Elemental Devastation procs (ie 8.5% under the crit cap) it would show this for the mouse over.

*Over the Soft Crit Cap
Elemental Devastation - 0.5%
Dark Matter - 4.83%
Elemental Devastation + Dark Matter - 5.33%

#34 Levva

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 10:07 AM

Levva, I'm not sure how much work this would be, but is it possible to display the attack table in Rawr? Possibly on the same tab where we go for the graph of stats?

You could have 2 separate columns, one for static buffs and one with all procs so people could see how much of their procs are being wasted (you could have an 3rd column for ED only proc'd if you felt it warranted).

I'm not sure how much work this would be, if it's feasible, I'll happily create a ticket on the Rawr codeplex page, just thought I'd get your opinion first.


This already exists after a fashion. Its called Combat Table (White), Combat Table (Yellow) and Combat Table (Spells). Separating out procs & buffs isn't going to happen though. The code just isn't designed that way, or at least it would be a major pain to get it there and we are in feature lockdown for Rawr2.

I think it's working correctly. It's just showing up on the mouseover as over the crit cap too soon. It's showing as "over the crit cap" when you hit the range of the unremovable hit which is going to confuse people as there is no reason to worry about crit until you hit the true crit cap.


Its currently using if crit > 100 - glancing - miss which is the same as if glancing + miss + crit > 100. ie: no 4.8% in sight. to warn if over cap. This is the only warning it gives. So again I can't see how it can be wrong at present. PLEASE if you have an example give me an XML so I can understand, all I have is words at present and NO info. If I can't replicate your issue I cannot solve it.

Remember that Rawr doesn't have lots of different states it takes ALL your stats, your procs, your buffs, your uptime stats and lumps them all together before working out the dps from that large chunk of stats. To effectively "interrupt" the process early and store values becomes fiddly and has introduced errors in the past. The whole way the display is handled is a mess to be honest. It needs a major re-write for all models so we can separate display values from calculation values.
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#35 Lumb

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 11:47 AM

Levva does the version in your attachment also include the updated ?

#36 Levva

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 11:49 AM

Levva does the version in your attachment also include the updated ?


What is updated about it? The one of the procs being Haste rather than ArP? If so yes.
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#37 Lumb

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 02:25 PM

What is updated about it? The one of the procs being Haste rather than ArP? If so yes.


Yeah that's what I meant - great.

#38 Rouncer

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 03:21 PM

(e - while working through this post and verifying everything I figured out what I was mistaken about but worth reading for the logic train that led to understanding so we can help others when they start with the same mistaken conclusions)

I copied the folder contents over my current Rawr folder and when I swap out my War Token for the Heroic Whispering Fanged Skull it takes my crit up to 63.25% and then it shows (Over Cap) and the mouseover shows "over the soft cap by 0.44%).

Miss Rate is 7.95%
Dodge is 0%

So it should show 100 - 24 - 7.95 = 68.05% as the cap. If the 4.8% was already affecting the cap then it would be 63.25%

If I remove all the points from Elemental Devastation it shows my crit as 55.05% (all raid buffs but nothing proccing crit).

I attached the XML.

I'm also going to attach an XML that shows the base crit value. This is without Ele D and without any raid buffs that affect melee crit so the value should match my paper doll in game.

With that gear my paper doll and my value on the Armory shows as 40.99%. But on Rawr it is showing as 36.19%. Which fits if it is already taking the crit depression into account on the Rawr panel. So Rawr is showing the correct values, it just looks wrong because the 4.8% is affecting the Melee Crit value shown in the panel but it doesn't affect the cap value, ie Rawr is working 100% correctly and I was just missing it because of a lack of understanding about how it derived the values shown in that panel.

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#39 Levva

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 04:39 PM

(e - while working through this post and verifying everything I figured out what I was mistaken about but worth reading for the logic train that led to understanding so we can help others when they start with the same mistaken conclusions)

I copied the folder contents over my current Rawr folder and when I swap out my War Token for the Heroic Whispering Fanged Skull it takes my crit up to 63.25% and then it shows (Over Cap) and the mouseover shows "over the soft cap by 0.44%).

Miss Rate is 7.95%
Dodge is 0%

So it should show 100 - 24 - 7.95 = 68.05% as the cap. If the 4.8% was already affecting the cap then it would be 63.25%

If I remove all the points from Elemental Devastation it shows my crit as 55.05% (all raid buffs but nothing proccing crit).

I attached the XML.

I'm also going to attach an XML that shows the base crit value. This is without Ele D and without any raid buffs that affect melee crit so the value should match my paper doll in game.

With that gear my paper doll and my value on the Armory shows as 40.99%. But on Rawr it is showing as 36.19%. Which fits if it is already taking the crit depression into account on the Rawr panel. So Rawr is showing the correct values, it just looks wrong because the 4.8% is affecting the Melee Crit value shown in the panel but it doesn't affect the cap value, ie Rawr is working 100% correctly and I was just missing it because of a lack of understanding about how it derived the values shown in that panel.


Ah ok what I take from that is it would be more useful to have the display value show the crit with the added crit depression value, so it matches the armoury?

Edit: Please find attached an update r30516 that should fix the display issues and make it a bit more intuitive. NB. I've changed the hit and miss graphs (Combat Table (white)) to show green where you could possibly eek out more crit, and the crit bar to show green when over crit cap. Let me know if it looks right or wrong please.

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Please use the EnhSim by Ziff & others to simulate what gear, priorities etc are the best dps. You can use ShockAndAwe to export your paperdoll stats to EnhSim.

#40 Rouncer

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 06:15 PM

Display now matches ingame/armory paper doll except for what is likely a rounding error, armory has me at 43.48% and Rawr has me at 43.47%.

43.47 + raid buffs/debuffs = 56.11%
56.11% + 9% Ele D = 65.11%
56.11 + estimated uptime for Ele D = 64.15%

My crit cap = 100 - 24 - 7.95 = 68.05%

Mouseover tooltip shows me as over the crit cap by 0.89%. So it is still working off the assumption that the crit depression has affected my crit value in the panel.

I'm really not sure what the best way to handle the information on the panel would be if someone was over the crit cap. Having an averaged value for procs that put someone over the cap really doesn't help because you are still losing all the white crit above the cap from the proc when it is active.

Maybe the best thing would be to just have it say "You are over the crit cap, consider adding more hit rating as that may increase your overall dps". Then let people sort out on their own how much they are over the crit cap by and whether it would be a dps increase to add enough hit to get back under the cap. Feels like a copout but within the constraints of the Rawr system it may be better to just work it that way instead of leading people to the wrong conclusions.



What's nice to see though is that the graph function is working perfectly. It shows a static value curve for hit when I am actually below the crit cap that is just below the values curves of AP or Haste. When I add enough crit rating to actually be over the crit cap it shows a curve with a peak that coincides with enough hit rating to get back under the crit cap and then the curve moves back to it's normal curvature. Take a look at the attached xml file and run the graph with just hit/AP/Haste as my explanation is probably a bit confusing. The curvature on the graph is corresponding to the real crit cap not the one it is showing on the mouseover on the panel and it gives an idea how much hit you need to add before any other stat would be a better choice for gemming.

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