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[Enhancement]: Critical cap analysis (Tow/HotC)


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#41 Levva

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 06:34 PM

However isn't what its saying correct though as 0.89% of your crit is getting converted to hits. So its warning that 0.89% of your crits is being wasted. Perhaps the word CAP is the problem as its not actually over the cap but it is crit that isn't being used to crit.

Does the "Combat Table (White)" help explain things? Top Right drop down that starts Gear | Head by default. Click on Gear and then select "Combat Table (White)". I suspect what we are looking at now is sorting the wording rather than disagreeing on the values.

The graph aims to show where lost hit & crit is going.
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#42 Nevets_69

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 06:41 PM

But he isn't wasting any crit at all, which is where the problem comes from.

Even if he only had a 4.8% chance to crit, he would still be under the effect of the crit depression, and have a 0% chance to crit (theoretically; I think in practice you always have a 1% chance to crit).

So you're not wasting crit until your chance for "Regular Hits" has been reduced to 4.8%, only then is additional crit being wasted. No matter what your crit rate is, it will always be 4.8% lower in practice when hitting a boss.
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#43 Rouncer

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 07:21 PM

However isn't what its saying correct though as 0.89% of your crit is getting converted to hits. So its warning that 0.89% of your crits is being wasted. Perhaps the word CAP is the problem as its not actually over the cap but it is crit that isn't being used to crit.

Does the "Combat Table (White)" help explain things? Top Right drop down that starts Gear | Head by default. Click on Gear and then select "Combat Table (White)". I suspect what we are looking at now is sorting the wording rather than disagreeing on the values.

The graph aims to show where lost hit & crit is going.


None of my crit is being wasted. Every drop of it gives me more crit up to the actual crit cap. This was the part that confused the hell out of me when Bestpike started with his pms. Think about it this way.

(removing misses, dodge and parry - so crit cap is 76%)
If I have 10% crit, my actual crit rate will be 5.2% due to crit depression.
If I have 25% crit, my actual crit rate will be 20.2% due to crit depression.
If I have 70% crit, my actual crit rate will be 65.2% due to crit depression
If I have 75% crit, my actual crit rate will be 70.2% due to crit depression
If I have 76% crit, my actual crit rate will be 71.2% due to crit depression
(So every percentage point worth of crit was worth it's value as it was increasing my actual crit rate.)

If I have 77% crit, my actual crit rate will be 71.2% due to the crit cap.
(So that last percentage point worth of crit rating was completely wasted as my actual crit rate did not change)

#44 Levva

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 12:46 AM

Ok I've got it now makes perfect sense it was the combat table white that was throwing me. I've now tweaked it to remove the crit depression as this is being shown on the hit bar. My confusion was that the bars weren't adding up to 100%. Due to the crit depression appearing on the crit bar and the hit bar.

Try this latest build r1154 (NB. This also has the fix for the mana issues in the Rawr.Enhance thread).

Please let me know if this fits what you'd expect on the sheets and in the Combat Table (White). At below the cap, at the cap and above the cap.

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#45 Cobs

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 10:53 PM

One more thing about crit cap is that even when you are over white crit cap the crit isn't "completely" wasted. You still have lots of room left until the yellow and spell crit cap. That being said I can't see a situation where crit would retain a higher value than our other main stats but even the "hard" crit cap for white swings is still a "soft" cap for overall damage.

Again this isn't me advocating going over white melee crit cap, just that you should still sim and test values over cap and not assume crit over white swing cap to be a 0 dps increase all else being equal.

#46 bestpike

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 01:09 AM

The following info is old. Look at the one i made on the third page of this thread. There is also a download link for the new calculator.

Glad to be of help. According to what we have figured out until now I have made an easy to use Critical cap calculator in Excel.


A. You need to insert info only at the red boxes. Those are your Hit rating, your unbuffed Agility and Critical chance char sheet value (add also the full amount of Agility or Critical chance any trinket procs you may have).

B. At the green colored boxes there is various information for the current status of your character.

C. At the yellow box it shows you how much more room for critical you have before you reach the cap with your current hit rating.


There is one table for Non-Draenei and one for Draenei. The tables assume Elemental devastation, Thundering Strikes and Dual-wield Specialisation taken, and also a fully buffed raiding environment. Also, if you aren't expertise capped, you should subtract your chance your attacks have to dodge from the final number.


Edit: Make sure you have knowledge of the crit cap mechanic. Those tables are only meant to speed up the calculation process, not to tell you something you don't already know.

#47 Shamanator

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 09:41 PM

i tried using the excel file and it tells me that without ED (not averaged im adding 9% to see how much i need to be under when its up) and HotC i have 1.70% room for more crit. but when i add 12% it says i need to have 730 hit rating to get back under the cap when i have those buffs active. now im a little bit skeptical about that and wanted to know if that working out is correct. even when i use Rouncer's version of the manual equation i get 100 - 24 - 8.05 =67.95 crit cap
without full buffs (apart from HotC and ED) im already at 66.26% crit. so im under by 1.69. so with just HotC added im over by 4.69 BUT thats without ED, so ill go even further over it because of that proc and just estimated uptime puts me at 12.73% OVER the cap. and to get that much in hit is pretty ridiculous with my current set. so am i just working this out plain wrong or do i really need excessive amount of hit to balance this out?
if i posted this in wrong place please move it or delete

#48 Levva

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 10:46 PM

Glad to be of help. According to what we have figured out until now I have made an easy to use Critical cap calculator in Excel.


A spreadsheet is overkill isn't it? Rawr now does this (use Combat Table (White) to view) and soon ShockAndAwe in game will do this.
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#49 bestpike

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 11:53 PM

Well I am not aware how advanced the various other classes' spreadsheets are, but all this table is doing is get your base crit, adds 9% from ED, then crit from raid buffs (5% buff, 3% debuff, MotW, SoE), finally calculates your total agility to calculate Kings and adds it all together. Then it sees your chance to miss, tells you how much more Crit you can have before the cap. Its pretty primitive and simple, made in 10 minutes.

Levva, i was also wondering to how much AEP hit rating is rising to, when someone isn't White Hit capped but is White Crit capped. That means that for whatever hit rating someone at that situation gets, hit is converted to crit immediately.

My rushed calculations over some of my WWS parses showed a value of in the area of 2.2 AEP per 1 hit rating, but it may be helpful to implement this new AEP value to the simulator, so we can see if it's worth it to gem for hit when crit capped or not while in various gear setups. I will post some analysis on the matter a bit later.

#50 Levva

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 01:57 PM

Well I am not aware how advanced the various other classes' spreadsheets are, but all this table is doing is get your base crit, adds 9% from ED, then crit from raid buffs (5% buff, 3% debuff, MotW, SoE), finally calculates your total agility to calculate Kings and adds it all together. Then it sees your chance to miss, tells you how much more Crit you can have before the cap. Its pretty primitive and simple, made in 10 minutes.

Levva, i was also wondering to how much AEP hit rating is rising to, when someone isn't White Hit capped but is White Crit capped. That means that for whatever hit rating someone at that situation gets, hit is converted to crit immediately.

My rushed calculations over some of my WWS parses showed a value of in the area of 2.2 AEP per 1 hit rating, but it may be helpful to implement this new AEP value to the simulator, so we can see if it's worth it to gem for hit when crit capped or not while in various gear setups. I will post some analysis on the matter a bit later.


None of the simulators use EP or AEP in any way shape or form they are a by product of adding stats and doing a calculation and are provided as a convenience to humans to give you a ROUGH guide to how the stats shape up against each other. As far as either simulator is concerned neither of them are using EP values AT ALL. In fact with the new graphs in Rawr (introduced 3-4 months ago) you are advised never to refer to EP values again as the graphs give you a far far better at a glance view of the interaction of your stats as the amount of added/subtracted stat changes.

It is a source of some concern that people still think after all this time that the simulators use EP values in their calculations THEY DON'T!!! Simulators use formulae for percentage hit, miss, crit, haste etc etc etc and work out how that affects the damage components of each of your abilities. The difference between the two sims is that Rawr.Enhance uses a averaged stat closed form solution and so is very quick but is assuming that everything is averaged out over time. Whereas EnhSim actually runs thousands of hours of actual combat blow by blow simulation rolling dice for every single event seeing if its a hit, crit, miss, checking if something procs etc.

PLEASE PLEASE get it into your head that EP values are MEANINGLESS, they provide a VERY ROUGH guide to what stat with THAT gear is providing the most improvement but as soon as you change the stat the EP values change, this is especially true of hit & now crit where we are dealing with caps.
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#51 bestpike

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 01:47 AM

Yes indeed using AEP is just a human convenience. I plead guilty, I use them pretty often. I better not post my math analysis on Hit valiue after crit cap. It was based on AEP.

I will just say some general things about it. When a crit capped person acquires more hit rating (and is not already white attack hit capped of course), and even with that hit rating he is still crit capped, all the newly added white attacks are criticals. So, while you are getting hit, in reality it is crit you are getting, as far as white attacks are concerned. Yellow attacks remain unaffected.

And since when spell hit capped, all that hit rating is offering is more white attacks, when crit capped hit rating should be offering double the amount of damage. But this of course takes for granted that you are constantly and always crit capped, which isn't true. Even with all the raid buffs, Elemental devastation should drop at some point in fight, it doesn't have a 100% uptime. So depending on how much is your average ED uptime (which also varies depending on boss), and how far beyond the crit cap you are, you can calculate the value of Hit rating, which of course is just a convenience as Levva very correctly stated.

Please correct me if I'm wrong somewhere, I wrote all this without giving it great thought.

#52 Rouncer

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 02:10 AM

Post it, I'm curious and I don't think EP is such a bad thing provided people are aware of it's limitations.

#53 Levva

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 10:35 AM

Yes indeed using AEP is just a human convenience. I plead guilty, i use them pretty often. I better not post my math analysis on Hit valiue after crit cap. It was based on AEP.

I will just say some general things about it. When a crit capped person acquires more hit rating (and is not already white attack hit capped of course), and even with that hit rating he is still crit capped, all the newly added white attacks are criticals. So, while you are getting hit, in reality it is crit you are getting, as far as white attacks are concerned. Yellow attacks remain unaffected.

And since when spell hit capped, all that hit rating is offering is more white attacks, when crit capped hit rating should be offering double the amount of damage. But this of course takes for granted that you are constantly and always crit capped, which isn't true. Even with all the raid buffs, Elemental devastation should drop at some point in fight, it doesn't have a 100% uptime. So depending on how much is your average ED uptime (which also varies depending on boss), and how far beyond the crit cap you are, you can calculate the value of Hit rating, which of course is just a convenience as Levva very correctly stated.

Please correct me if I'm wrong somewhere, I wrote all this without giving it great thought.


The thing is you can see very very clearly with the graph feature in Rawr how Hit suddenly rises then falls back around the crit cap. This is similar to using EP values but not for a single value but for multiple values. ie: The program takes the current gear and say ok what's the dps if I add 5 hit rating, then 10, then 15 etc etc.

EP values do the same idea it adds a fixed amount specified in the EP values section of your EnhSim config. However all you end up getting is a SINGLE point on the graph. Now if you happen to have a graph where values are rising and falling due to caps what you are doing with EP values is taking a single set of values at a single point on the graph and trying to make declarations of behaviour at other points on the graph with the invalid assumption that its constant.

If instead you look at the graph as a whole you get a clearer picture. You see the rises and falls, you see where the graph levels off.

Lets take Rouncer's gear from the armoury. He's already optimised it (far too efficient for his own good) so I unoptimised it by changing a 20 hit gem in his gloves to a 20 haste gem. This then gave what he saw before the conversation about crit caps emerged.

Posted Image

Now note two things the way that expertise hits the zero line considerably to the left ie: perhaps a little over capped, also note that the hit rating does some funny things it changes angle twice. Once at the point off to the left where he passes the spell crit cap and once where he can overcome the melee crit cap with some extra hit.

I also stuck a red line on the map to show you what you'd get from EP values ie: you'd get hit EP of around 2.3, haste around 2.05 and AP at 1, the rest would be below 1 (note that haste & AP are almost on top of each other ie: haste is only just ahead of AP).

Now what does 2.3 EP hit rating mean?? The idiots out there would have you believe that means "regem for hit" ie: change your gear around and replace your haste gems for hit gems. Is this right? CLEARLY not. We can see that hit rating tails off significantly after Rouncer adds about 10 hit rating. So what does the graph tell us that EP cannot tell us?

The graph shows that he needs about 10 more hit rating before it tails off and that he's about 10 expertise rating too much. Lets test that theory and change his leggings gem from 20 expertise to 10 expertise and 10 hit rating. If you do the calcs in the sim you see that this is a BIG upgrade over any other gem choice for that slot. Once that single gem choice is changed you get the following graph...

Posted Image

Note that the kinks have been dealt with and now haste and AP are neck and neck with hit rating no longer an issue.

So what does this all mean? Well from the graph I was able to see that LOSING some expertise and gaining some hit was what was required. No amount of massaging EP values would EVER have seen that solution. In fact traditional use of EP values would have wrongly suggested that "stacking" hit was a good idea when clearly it wasn't. This is to me damning proof that EP values can be fatally flawed and whilst potentially useful for quick comparisons in game have no place in serious discussions about how we should gear.

In this example the only EP values available are represented by the vertical red lines. As you can see they are a tiny snapshot of what is going on and since the EP values (the red lines) were in the "wrong place" they gave a false indication of how Rouncer should gear. The only way you could have found this out with EP values would have been to run the sim dozens of times with lots of different EP steps ie: effectively producing a graph.

In fact my little tweak using the graph raises his dps from 9098.45 to 9112.04 which is a 14 dps rise from changing a gem. In fact that's the upgrade he'd get from his OPTIMISED gear. The change of a single gem from graph 1 to graph 2 was changing 20 expertise to 10 expertise 10 hit changing dps from 9085.39 to 9112.04 ie: using the graph and changing a single gem gave a 26.65 dps upgrade.
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#54 Rouncer

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 02:45 PM

I just got the 258 gloves last night so hadn't had a chance to rework my gemming to account for the additional expertise on the gloves.

Levva would it be possible to add a way to zoom in and out on the graph? Maybe give an option to control the size of the Stat Change variable in the X axis? I'd love to be able to zoom into the 20 or 40 stat change area to see what is going on when they are all clumped up like that.


As for the talk of the EP value of hit when just over the crit cap, I would be interested in seeing the math for it's value since that goes into determining the value of adding hit past the spell hit cap when it would also be increasing the value for crit on white strikes as well. Logically it makes sense that hit would then be the best stat to gem for until you got back under the crit cap when Elemental Devastation (as a high uptime proc) was active but seeing the math may help to quantify it better.

#55 HRAE

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 06:45 PM

/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Crit:"..((UnitStat("player", 2)+178+52)*.1+178+52)/83.33+3+5+9+GetCritChance())
/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Critcap:"..100-24-27+GetCombatRatingBonus(6)+6)

This takes your unbuffed stats and spits out your raidbuffed critchance+critcap, the only thing I'm not sure of is if kings is calculated before or after straight +stat buffs.

#56 Nevets_69

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 07:11 PM

/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Critcap:"..100-24-27-4.8+GetCombatRatingBonus(6)+6)


This line is wrong. You don't have to subtract the 4.8% for the crit depression. If you read through this thread you'll see where Rouncer showed very clearly that this 4.8% crit depression has no effect on the amount of crit required to reach the cap.

It should look more like this:

100-(27-(GetCombatRatingBonus(6)+6))-(24)

Elemental Shaman: You're OOM.
Enhancement Shaman: So are you.

#57 HRAE

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 07:58 PM

Yeah, that's left over from the old macro and shouldn't be there. I was mostly interested if the first one is correct since I won't raid until sunday.

#58 Rouncer

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 08:27 PM

This line is wrong. You don't have to subtract the 4.8% for the crit depression. If you read through this thread you'll see where Rouncer showed very clearly that this 4.8% crit depression has no effect on the amount of crit required to reach the cap.

It should look more like this:

100-(27-(GetCombatRatingBonus(6)+6))-(24)


While I enjoy receiving credit for things in this case that was just me repeating the argument Bestpike made that managed to get my brain to wrap around how it actually worked.

Would one of you mind fixing up that script and posting it in a single [ code ] block so people can have a correct script to use? Pretty sure two of them will be necessary though, since you will need one when there is a Heart of the Crusader, ToW or Master Poisoner debuff on the target and one when it is not present.

Also anyone who has a flawed or incorrect script in their post would you mind going back and editing it out so there is less confusion for people following this thread.

#59 bestpike

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 11:55 PM

I guess I made it known on the shaman part of the forum, but it was actually on the Druid forums that I read this the first time. I forget the name of the poster (Rouncer should have the post link), but thanks to that poster all the same.

On the AEP side of things now, Levva you are right those graphs are much better, they show the truth much more clearer. Although the occasion with Rouncer's gems is slightly different than pure critical cap issues, it presents the stats in a much better way indeed.

#60 Levva

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 04:24 PM

Graph scale in Rawr.Enhance now user definable.

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