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When is it ok to leave a raiding guild to join a different guild?


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#21 Kalman

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Posted 15 October 2006 - 11:40 PM

Do what you think will make you happy. Within that stricture, do your best not to burn bridges or hurt feelings.

Also, if you use a zero-sum system, I personally feel it's impolite to leave while negative.
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#22 Dakous

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 12:03 AM

Also, if you use a zero-sum system, I personally feel it's impolite to leave while negative.

In a system where an item would cost around 20 DKP, knew a guy who was -450 DKP. I bet it's really cool being the only druid in a guild as it goes from first Lucifron kill to a Twin Emps kill ~

(Sorry for the slight derail, and I don't disagree with you in premise, Kalman, but I thought a laugh at an extreme yet real example would be good times)
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#23 CrazyGamer

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 01:41 AM

First off, be sure you have realistic impressions of the guild you're considering to join. It will occasionally wipe on trash or fail to kill a boss it's been farming for a month. There will be slow periods where progress gets stuck for weeks or perhaps a month. There will be occasional drama etc. Even if the guild miraculously always does brilliantly, there will be periods where bugs or horrible server performance screws you over bigtime for weeks/months on end or when somehow all your priests leave on vacation at the same time or whatever. Shit happens no matter which guild you're in and you'll have to devote yourself to a guild through bad times as well as the good.

I and many others look down on people who quit simply because they want more loot and progress. The fine distinction is people who mainly leave because they are in a guild which doesn't match their dedication. It's completely ok for those to eventually move on when it's obvious that their guilds are not going to reach the same level of dedication.

Also, if you feel that the attitude and ideals in your current guild are in conflict with your own, that's also a reason to consider if you'd be better off elsewhere. Leaders getting into conflicts and being very focused on loot (AKA personal gain as opposed to guild progress) would be the big factors here.

Also, if you are only basing this on one bad week you should seriously consider if there's still potential for your new guild to turn out well. It's a very short amount of time, even if your guild is new.
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#24 RK

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 02:05 AM

I'll tell you how NOT to do it: be the guild's rogue officer with the guild's only CTS ever and leave and /gquit with two of your friends in the middle of an AQ40 raid without a word. For added bonus, one of those friends was the receipient of the guild's only ever Eye and the other got the guild's first Ashkandhi last week.

That's definitely how not to do it.

Happily, we bounced back and had two days of great drama-free raiding (and new boss killing) on Friday and Saturday, so maybe people jumping to new guilds badly is a GOOD thing, makes everyone band together to prove the jumpers wrong :)


Edit: Incidentally, about a month ago our MT jumped to the most advanced Horde guild on our server. He didn't do it after having just swallowed a pile of top loot (indeed, he'd sat out of raids for a few weeks beforehand taking a break and considering his future), he made sure to hand over all the shards and idols and stuff he'd collected on guild raids, he discussed it with the other officers beforehand, and he didn't make a song and dance about it or try and take others with him. As such I don't think there's any ill-will at all; he decided if he was going to keep playing, he wanted to see more of the end-game before the expansion, and we respect that. We raid about three-four days a week, and he's the sort when he's playing that is will happily raid about 6 days a week, not going to begrudge him a guild more to his style. That's an example of how to leave well, I reckon.

#25 Kytrarewn

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 02:21 AM

Are you willing to give up any and all contact with your old guild? Are you willing to have them ban you from their vent server, ban you from their forums (non-provoked in either case, I had been entirely civil, but my departure was somewhat of a surprise), and have them forget that you had ever raided with them in any context?

If so, do it.

If not, maybe you should make sure that you can get along with the people in your new guild and are willing to have them completely replace your friends from the old guild. Because, chances are, the old guild will lose its desire to associate with you.
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#26 Boevis

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 02:22 AM

To directly answer the topic question: When you feel you have done everything you can to make it so you have fun in the guild, and you still are not.

Sometimes, you may find that even though you feel dissapointed in your guildmates for not being as hardcore as you, you may still be having fun. You're also at a place/time right now, where many raiders are going to be losing motivation for continuing, with BC on the horizion, make it clear to leadership that you are in this to see new bosses, and you'd like to do it before BC

#27 Oaklin

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 03:40 AM

Do whatever keeps the game fun for you, within the limits allowed by your conscience. If fun for you involves being in an advanced guild and getting T2.5/3 epics, then that's your goal. Personally, I would weigh friendships and a healthy guild atmosphere rather heavily, but to each his own. If your guild zoomed thru MC and BWL in 1 month, then it probably prized progression above all else, so having members who hop at the first chance at even better progression is something that comes with the territory.

Keep in mind, however, that in the long run, your reputation will affect you more than any loot you could ever gather. Even a server transfer will only start you back at Anonymous. It cannot buy you a 'good' reputation.

Also, like attracts like. Its almost impossible to progress past AQ40 these days without recruiting players that have left other raid guilds. But some leave for better reasons than others. If a guild is willing to take in blatant guild hoppers, it cannot complain when that player one day leaves for equally unsatisfactory reasons. And what kinds of people do you want to surround yourself with every day anyways?:)

#28 Thelyna

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 03:58 AM

Whatever you do, make sure you communicate clearly with the rest of your guild what the problems you're having are.

I didn't, I internalised my problems, so when I left (Soulbound, the guild I'm now back in) it was a rather big surprise and there was a fair amount of bitterness. Even when I reapplied six months later there were still some reservations about me.

edit: the above is assuming you care about your rep on the server, which you really should if you want to keep raiding. Guilds are very rarely open recruiting, they'll want chapter and verse on your guild history and why you left, and while you seem to have another guild lined up, what about if that one doesn't work out, you leave that guild, and you're stuck in the wilderness? Your rep is probably as important as your skill and gear.

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#29 Kalman

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 06:00 AM

Are you willing to give up any and all contact with your old guild? Are you willing to have them ban you from their vent server, ban you from their forums (non-provoked in either case, I had been entirely civil, but my departure was somewhat of a surprise), and have them forget that you had ever raided with them in any context?

If so, do it.

If not, maybe you should make sure that you can get along with the people in your new guild and are willing to have them completely replace your friends from the old guild. Because, chances are, the old guild will lose its desire to associate with you.

For the record, I changed guilds about a month, month and a half ago.

I'm still good friends with pretty much everyone in my old guild, have access to the guild forums, have an alt in their alt guild, etc.

Circumstances vary; if you're clear about why you left and the reasons are good ("I wasn't having fun, I didn't want to play" is fine; "I wanted moar purplez" is not) odds are decent that most of the old guild will understand.
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#30 Silentness

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 06:10 AM

Are you willing to give up any and all contact with your old guild? Are you willing to have them ban you from their vent server, ban you from their forums (non-provoked in either case, I had been entirely civil, but my departure was somewhat of a surprise), and have them forget that you had ever raided with them in any context?

If so, do it.

If not, maybe you should make sure that you can get along with the people in your new guild and are willing to have them completely replace your friends from the old guild. Because, chances are, the old guild will lose its desire to associate with you.

For the record, I changed guilds about a month, month and a half ago.

I'm still good friends with pretty much everyone in my old guild, have access to the guild forums, have an alt in their alt guild, etc.

Circumstances vary; if you're clear about why you left and the reasons are good ("I wasn't having fun, I didn't want to play" is fine; "I wanted moar purplez" is not) odds are decent that most of the old guild will understand.

Definitely depends on the guild. I was in my previous guild for a year. We were like "war buddies", but soon as I gave my resignation post I was exiled. I still talk to a couple guild members, but overall the guild pretends like I never exist due to my departure for a more serious raiding guild.

#31 Reali

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 09:34 AM

Theres something fishy about "naxx starting guild" that is willing to recruit a crappy geared rogue. Not like there is a shortage if this class. I mean go if you see it being better choice but I personally wouldnt expect too much jump of a quality.

#32 Lilias

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 10:38 AM

Been there, more than once. Not so much in the "maddening and incredibly aggressive push" through raid content field, but alot in the how-to-handle-casuals-if-you're-really-dedicated area. Twice I was seriously willing to give up my guild but never to give up my friends, and the recruiting guilds I'd have joined were never seraching for more than 2 or 3 players. I (or better: we) gritted our teeth and kept on raiding even if it sometimes hurt to see how ignorant/stupid people can be, spent more time afterwards in 5man instances with our twinks jokin' around like the old times, went on recruiting some few new members, eventually found out there were other dedicated players within the old guild who were willing to put in effort & strength - and fun.
We still have some casuals. We still have some people who don't like farming, who cry after a wipe night at patchwerks, who'd prefer to farm BWL forever just to gear up there twinks & not to lose money or mats on new encounters.
But we also have a lot of dedicated players who care about each other as well as about us progressing as a team. And I gotta say I'm both proud & happy that I stayed with my friends and that we built this together.

What good is raiding progress if you didn't work on it by yourself anyways?
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#33 Vytae

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 10:42 AM

Naxx starting guild = Instructor/Anub = possible with little better then tier 1 if your real good. Say,if your rerolls on a new server and have been there before.
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#34 Tel

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 01:33 PM

Yeah, I'd say that if you'er not having fun, then is the time to move on.

#35 CrazyGamer

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 01:52 PM

My question to you, is do you think i should stick it out till TBC or just call it a day now?

You say he has the support of some officers but it appears to me that they are the same officers who are slacking in raids. If you have the support of the members who are pulling their own weight, I'd say you are the one calling the shots.

First off, I'd suggest a discussion with the leader and the officers about that. If that doesn't work out to your satisfaction, try letting him handle leading entirely for a week or so to let yourself and others get a proper impression of how he's managing. If you still find it to be an issue after that, you can try a "public" discussion (all guild members but no one outside the guild) about the issue and what kind of long term solution they'd like. It may be that they support him or it may be that they support you but the opinion of both members in general and particularly the core raiders should be an indicating of which way to go. If you have massive support and your leader won't let you handle raid leading without his interruptions, you may have to reform the guild without him as happened to Nightmares Asylum.
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#36 Drelegon

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 01:59 PM

In the end this is a hobby, like any other team based hobby. When is it ok to leave? The answer is when you aren't having fun anymore. What are the things you should do before you leave? Make sure any debts you have to the guild are paid. The best way to make a bunch of enemies would be to leave at -1,000,000 DKP because they would feel like you didn't spend the time to help them accomplish their gear goals after you filled yours. Anytime I've left a guild in any MMO I've always been at the top or DKP cap for the guild, leaving all of those points on the table. Why? Because then nobody can question that I didn't put in my time to earn the gear the guild did help me obtain.

#37 Malag

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 02:02 PM

I'm with CrazyGamer on this one, with the exception of letting him lead for a week. That might push some people out of the guild before you get the chance to take charge (if it comes to that).

Every story has two sides, but even if what you say is half precice, you shouldn't have to suck it up at all.

Put some feelers out there; if the majority of the guild agrees with you, you can just ask him to leave the guild. If he refuses that, form a new one. After all, you did just fine in his and his friends absence right?

Worst case scenario, you apply to another guild. But don't just up and leave; explain to the rest of them the situation, then make your farewells peacefully.

#38 Reali

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 02:18 PM

First you make sure you have the support of your guild members then you place an ultimatum. Dont leave the guild. Obviously its good one if you are up to 4hmans.

"Hey mistar guild leader, after your return we have got the image that you are not really up to the job anymore nor wish to commit yourself fully to it either. Therefore we are asking yout to step down to a normal member. If you dont want to do that we just do quick mass /gquit and establish another guild under 10minuters or so. So its not really a big problem. Hopefully you'll stay but if you dont then be bye"

#39 Elsebet

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 03:19 PM

however, i have to ask, how/why is your guild trying aq40 when only having ever downed rag 4 times? you guys must be grossly under geared.

The first time we downed Nef, the raid leader immediately put AQ40 into our rotation. That was a month after we killed Rag. We now have 4 Nef kills under our belt and have downed Huhu twice. We have the Twin Emps pull and a few teleports down but Emps is honestly the first time in AQ that we've collectively said "okay we have to gear up for this fight". Our MT is only in 5/8 Wrath and is still wearing a blue belt from ZG. Stupid low Wrath/Might drops.

Only 1 of our Priests (me) is in 3/8 Trans - 2 (new recruits) have none at all. It's probably more difficult, but not impossible to start AQ early. I think it's made us better as a guild.

We are starting Naxx tonight. :P

#40 Njial

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 03:35 PM

however, i have to ask, how/why is your guild trying aq40 when only having ever downed rag 4 times? you guys must be grossly under geared.

The first time we downed Nef, the raid leader immediately put AQ40 into our rotation. That was a month after we killed Rag. We now have 4 Nef kills under our belt and have downed Huhu twice. We have the Twin Emps pull and a few teleports down but Emps is honestly the first time in AQ that we've collectively said "okay we have to gear up for this fight". Our MT is only in 5/8 Wrath and is still wearing a blue belt from ZG. Stupid low Wrath/Might drops.

Only 1 of our Priests (me) is in 3/8 Trans - 2 (new recruits) have none at all. It's probably more difficult, but not impossible to start AQ early. I think it's made us better as a guild.

We are starting Naxx tonight. :P

You guys have to be on of the most skilled, or most flasked guilds I've ever heard of....Hell just farming the NR for Huhu for a raid usually takes at least a couple weeks. The whole story seems a little nuts.
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