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When is it ok to leave a raiding guild to join a different guild?


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#41 Creediki

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 03:48 PM

"Previously we've been led by a guild leader / raid leader who although brash and abusive, got the job done"

It's been my personal experience that this does not work well in Naxx. You want 40 people working in unison, but everyone needs to show individual intitative. Yelling makes people follow the line but dampens down any intelligent thought. It's quite likely someone who led successfully through MC/BWL where that was all you needed will be in for a very rude shock upon return.

As for how to handle it. You have two choices, and they depend on who the guild leader and his cronies are:

If you judge them incapable of change, or egotistical bastards (ie.. are they the type of people to move against you as a threat), you need to set them up and take them out. Offer them no help. Do not assist setting things up that they forget. Give them enough rope to hang themselves. Put feelers out, use your friends. Your goal is them either quitting or a break/reform. Go for the throat. The more people you get and the more swiftly it's done the better.

If they are decent, then you work with them. Phrase things as for the good of the guild. Work from there. Help them out.

Personally, anyone who would take off to egypt for an extended period without passing leadership is a complete asshat and should be punched in the face. It's just fucking bullshit. Leaders should lead by example. In the end, there really isn't any other way.
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#42 Zavier

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 03:58 PM

You guys have to be on of the most skilled, or most flasked guilds I've ever heard of....Hell just farming the NR for Huhu for a raid usually takes at least a couple weeks. The whole story seems a little nuts.

It's entirely possible, my guild went through the same rate of progression. After 2 Rag kills we went into BWL and cleared it all within the week, we then bravely strode into AQ40 and managed to clear to Huhuran who promptly whipped us because of course we had little to no NR. Our progression has definitely outstripped our aquesition of gear, but it makes fights that much more interesting. I'm probably one of the few Priests who could say they healed Huhuran with Dreadmist being their best healing robe. :P

As for leaving your guild, don't feel you're under any obligation to stay. If you have fun with the people you play with then the game shouldn't really feel like a chore, if you find yourself dreading logging in, or worse, simply logging in because you feel obligated to then it's time for a break. WoW is a game, and if you're not playing it for your own enjoyment there's no reason to play at all.

The enjoyment you get from WoW really has everything to do with the people you play with, I couldn't imagine playing it solo or with people I hated, being in a good guild with people you like really does make all the difference, and if you're in such a guild hold on to it for dear life.

#43 Elsebet

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 05:21 PM

You guys have to be on of the most skilled, or most flasked guilds I've ever heard of....Hell just farming the NR for Huhu for a raid usually takes at least a couple weeks. The whole story seems a little nuts.

We definitely took advantage of the craftable NR for Huhu. After many, many ZG runs we had a good amount of Bloodvine and people were advised to start collecting the mats for it after we downed Nefarian the first time. The guild bank was tapped to help in that also. Most of our guild are re-rolls from an Alliance raiding guild so they knew which Maraudon pieces to pick up. We did flask 2 tanks, 2 priests, and a few mages on both the first and second kill.

#44 Njial

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 05:23 PM

You guys have to be on of the most skilled, or most flasked guilds I've ever heard of....Hell just farming the NR for Huhu for a raid usually takes at least a couple weeks. The whole story seems a little nuts.

It's entirely possible, my guild went through the same rate of progression. After 2 Rag kills we went into BWL and cleared it all within the week, we then bravely strode into AQ40 and managed to clear to Huhuran who promptly whipped us because of course we had little to no NR. Our progression has definitely outstripped our aquesition of gear, but it makes fights that much more interesting. I'm probably one of the few Priests who could say they healed Huhuran with Dreadmist being their best healing robe. :P

I'm not saying it's impossible esp with server transfers, strats published all over, and rerolls from other servers, but in that level of gear I just can't see it w/o heavy consumable usage.
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#45 Cindarin

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 05:48 PM

Ok, this doesn't directly relate, but I assumed it would be better here than in it's own topic.

When is a guild in a slump, and when are they dying?

I was in one of those shoot thru MC/BWL guilds, taking care of those instances in about 1-2 months. After that, we shot thru Fankriss as well, and waited for people to get NR. We downed huhu one week using zanza pot's and then that was nerfed the next week (lame strat, I know, not the point of question though). A few weeks later, we down huhu normally. During those few weeks, our guild leader/raid leader gets his xbow of smiting, last piece of tier 2, and prestors, pvp's for a few days, and then sells his account. Since then, attendance has been crappy, we wipe on bosses we shouldn't have, and we haven't progressed since the middle of july.

Now that we've finally got people showing up for emps and we had them down to 20% in 12 minutes, the leadership decides that the guild wants to get easy epics from Anub'rekhan and Razuvious. I took over as raid leader month or so after the other one quit, and I told them that I wouldn't do that, it's a waste of time. So now I'm being replaced as raid leader for Naxx.

Is this a really long slump or what?

#46 Creediki

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 05:54 PM

When is a guild in a slump, and when are they dying?

When the guild believes it is dying, it is.
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#47 Keldor

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 06:26 PM

It makes me mad when I hear that people are going to a new guild for "progress". Being there for a raid's first kill is progress. Going to a guild that is a whole instance above you is not going for "progress". It is jumping content for better loot and more prestige which are both valid reasons. If someone plays the game for progress, I do not think jumping content would be acceptable to that person. The thread author might have much more fun in a hardcore raiding guild environment, but that fun has nothing to do with progress. Going from a class leader to the new guy that needs to be ran through BWL for loot does not seem like much fun to me. When this new hardcore raiding guild gets a first kill in Naxx and the new guy is sitting there in his tier 1, is he really going to feel like he ever really contributed to this progress?

I am sorry if my post is a little inflamatory but being an officer of a medium level raiding guild, I have heard the "progress" excuse many times. It always sounds like bs to me. The execuses that I would except are "I want better loot" or "We don't raid enough" or "the MT is a self absorbed prick".

#48 Creediki

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 06:33 PM

That's because you want to hear the details that can be fixed.. or might be able to be fixed.. instead of the vauge "progress". Thing is, you shouldn't be depending on exit interviews to tell you what's wrong in your guild. Officers tend to get tied up in the general bs and grumbling of a guild and forget that whatever they get told is only half the story.
*** Who Dares Wins ***
"The noblest fate that a man can endure is to place his own mortal body between his loved home and the war's desolation." - Heinlein
"Come and take them!�*" - Leonidas

#49 Dawnbringer

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 06:34 PM

I am going to reply to this, simply becuase the guild Molpadia is refering to joining (and more specifically the officer who confronted him) is me. :))

The guild he is in now "Reborn" has traded members with us for a good 2-3 weeks now, back and forth, having people leave us for them, and leave them for us, the issue Molpadia is having right now, is unlike the rest of the members who have converted, he has a Heart, and a knowledge of right/wrong which is making this decision harder. As far as Reborn's progress, right now they are ranked 3rd as far as overall progression ( but personally i rank them 2nd) the biggest issue ive seen (and heard complaints about) is there unheard of Open Bid DKP system (LOL Open bid?).

Our server is rather new (June release) the first guild was in MC early august, the second guild, was in MC 1 week after them, after 14 days from Hakkar dead. we had Rag dead (only 2 mc clears and 3 ZG clears and rag was dead) Note. we kill Broodlord before we killed Rag, after only 1 MC run. On our first MC run (2 Zg clears before this) we 1 Shot every boss, up to Golemagg (unable to summon domo for obvious reasons) the next week, we bolted in a 1 Shot domo, then 3 shot rag. We killed Razorgore our 4th attempt (after 1 MC clear, got a HUGE thrashing on the boards about "di hacking" lol) we had a minor setback, and didnt kill Vael for another week and a half, but once vael was dead we did Vael - Chromaggus in a single week (not know you could still hide from Nef's landing breathe we called it) 2 weeks later (and now with 35 ony cloaks) we 2 shot nef. with 1 dwarf priest, and only 3 deaths. we farmed BWl/MC for 2 weeks till AQ gates were open. on the first day of AQ (this is maybe 6 MC clears 3 BWL clears) we killed Ossiran(1 shot) Skeram, and Sartura. the next week (this week) we are wiping on Huhu (have the NR for it, just cant get it down yet) Fankriss, we killed with 3 priests. Sartura, with 3 priests, Skeram with 4 priests. We then (after our first Sartura killed) went into Naxx, and got anub rekhan down to about 70%. (note only 3 priests still[man we have an issue with priests ;p])

Having said all this, i think what Molpadia is not looking to jump ship for a more progressed guild, i think he is looking further, and determination, and overall skill of the guild as a whole.

However as stated earlier, when BC is released, most guilds will split, pick there top 35-40 and kick the rest, the need for a 55-60 person raiding guild, is ending, and will cause alot of break downs, and reforms on the server, and guild base. i would not be surprised, if 3 out of 5 guilds, on our server broke down completely, forming 2- 3 seperate guilds all together. the epics you can attain now, will mean nothing (aside from Saphiron/Kt and some select naxx loot) will all be replaced by lvl 68-70 with Greens and quest Blue's.

Personally, it is your choice. Whatever makes you happy, would be best, but then again, sometimes its harder to do what makes you happy, when you feel your choice will hinder soo many others :)

#50 Cindarin

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 06:45 PM

When is a guild in a slump, and when are they dying?

When the guild believes it is dying, it is.

There are 2 ways to take this. Either you're saying a mindset like mine is killing the guild, or you're saying that when the guild members begin to question it, then the guild is already dying. Which did you mean?

#51 Nevaria

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 07:33 PM

I feel as though the guild leadership is less interested in progress and more interested in loot.

These two things are generally connected. Unless a raid can be filled with enough members at appropriate gear levels, progress will be slow or even impossible.

Maybe I am simply spoiled. Maybe this guild will progress as far as C'thun before the expansion comes out, but honestly, I feel that there are glaring issues from the leadership down, that will hinder our progress. Would it be wrong to join a guild that is already attempting Naxx? Am I simply being spoiled? I am willing to admit that maybe I am expecting too much from my guild at present, but historically, the times my heart has told me to quit, were typically the right times to say goodbye, though I typically stayed despite the difficulties.

Only you can answer the question of whether staying in your current guild is the right thing to do. If you do not feel happy, I am doubtful that you are able to put forth maximum effort in a raid. That said, the only way to bring forth change and improvement is to communicate. Having to come to a forum to find out your feelings, is less than condusive to the implementing changes.

Each guild requires slightly different elements to be successul depending on the membership. Rules and procedures set forth are not there for the personal amusement of the leadership but are based on previous experience and what worked in the past. If you have concerns, bringing those concerns to the attention of leadership would seem to be the logical thing to do. Taking such initiative will not only start change to address your concerns, but likely also concerns of others, resulting in a better guild.

Guild turnover is something to be expected, people have personal lives and many realize that investing 40-50 hours or more into a computer game may not be the ideal thing for them. Losing members to RL or guilds with less hardcore policies is normal. What defines a guild is its core membership, the people that stick around through thick and thin and work on improving the guild and themselves, which is only accomplished through open communication.

Ultimately, this is a computer game, which people should be playing to have fun in their free time. If something about playing the game is not fun, I, and I suspect everyone else, should do what they need to make it fun again. What that is, only each individual can answer.

Nevaria - GM of Reborn (Aerie Peak)

#52 Thelyna

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 08:00 PM

Tel - if there's no hope at all and you honestly feel they're going to break your guild, then it's probably time for some drastic action. Make sure that A: It's not personal animosity, and B: it's not avoidable. Then, make sure everyone you want to keep is on your side, and do what Creediki said, set 'em up, take 'em out. I do tend to agree though, they sound like tools, your best option is probably to foment a little insurrection.

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#53 Lucit

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 09:51 PM

Stick it out. The expansion will bring lots of changes, particularly in terms of guild structure. Beyond that, I can't help but comment on the fact that you've been raiding for two months. I stuck with my guild through two reforms and 9-10 months of raiding, despite seeing the signs of collapse nearly 6 months before I left. In fact, they're still chugging along in Naxx (slowly, but hey).

It just seems to me like you're being a bit rash, given that you've been raiding for two months and you've already gotten Nef down. Yes, you'll go through some tough times where you lose "fairweather raiders", because the content after Nef is actually somewhat difficult. But you obviously have a fairly strong guild to have progressed as far as you have in the first place.

The one question you should ask yourself is this: Will you have more fun steamrolling content with a further-progressed guild, or learning and beating new encounters for the first time with your current guild? It's up to you.

#54 probiscus

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 10:43 PM

TMI

You don't have to explain yourself to us. Your guild/realm politics do not belong on these boards.

Sorry.

#55 Proeliata

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 10:48 PM

If you're in negative DKP, I'd say that the answer is pretty much no, you owe it to your guild to zero it out.

If you're in positive DKP, it's a whole 'nother ballgame, but one in which there's no one right answer.


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#56 Lymmel

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 11:22 PM

To be honest, if really the reason you wish to leave is progress and your guild has gone from zg to huhu in such a short time, I can't really justify it. Your guild's progress seems rather fast to me really.

If you want to have a tour of naxx, that's another story and I understand wishing to face naxx encounters before the expansion. The choice you have to make is if you really want to see naxx before the expansion or if you can live without doing so. But from what you say it doesn't seem like your guild is dying and its expansion progress shouldn't be bad either, so it's only a matter of experiencing content you won't get the chance to see otherwise.

But don't take this lightly, changing guilds isn't as easy as you may think. Being established in one guild gives you privileges that no trialist has. And getting used to new people, new tactics, new habits, it's a really big step.

#57 Molpadia

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 12:25 AM

It was a moment of vanity, a fit of doubt and indecision, a shudder in the chilly winds of change.

Thank you for your input on all levels. The myriad of responses have helped me to evaluate what is most important to me.

My reasons for forming this thread have been addressed and then some.

Thank you, and my apologies at having some of the server drama spill over to here.

It was my intent to seek the wisdom of those more experienced, and to find help at resolving an inner conflict.

These needs have been fulfilled.

#58 Boevis

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 01:34 AM

TMI

You don't have to explain yourself to us. Your guild/realm politics do not belong on these boards.

Sorry.

He's trying to provide some background so other people can help make the decision.. however being in any of the guilds involved, he's not the person that should be providing background.

#59 kurple

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 10:38 AM

I respect you as a fellow guild mate, Molp. I hope that you stick with us. =)

#60 Sebila

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 02:08 PM

In my case when:

a) My old guild didn't show much commitment to raid nor progressing. I also wanted to learn new fights, by experiencing new content (i.e. I had read that MC and BWL are static, whereas AQ and Naxx are not, etc). I always wanted to make progress personally, to improve, etc I.e. in sports I used to prefer to be first off the bench in a major league, rather then a star in the minors. Now I am an OT, rather then an MT, but how else am I supposed to aim higher?

b) When politics and hunger for power were more important then the team.

c) When many of the original members left and some of the new ones (and new officers) were nastier people and not having similar values. I kept the friends, left the guild (especially after seeking advise here and seeing how things were getting worse in terms of points a and b).




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