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Resto PvE Compendium and General Discussion


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#41 Taringe

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 04:47 PM

I've had similar experiences with RR as carebare, except from a primarily 10-man perspective. There is a lot more crossover, and assignments are generally far less defined, in healing 10s than 25s from my experience. Attempting to 5x1 locks up all of your GCDs and doesn't allow for movement, Swiftmends or spot healing without letting the cycle drop. It felt a lot more natural having the extra duration on the Rejuvs without RR, which gave the extra freedom to drop a heal on a tank on a bad avoidance run or someone who just got biten and not worry about letting Rejuvs fall.

My overall impression of RR has gone from "Manditory" when it released to "Just like the rest" currently. As an aside, I think that it is fantastic that we aren't in a "You're a Resto Druid, use glyphs A, B and C." situation. We're able to pick and choose from A, B, C, D, E and F. And that choice depends on your own personal style and your overall group makeup.

#42 Arentios

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 04:54 PM

Twins could theoretically have more of a someone gets gibbed factor compared to Queen as well (in my opinion).


This seems like a key point on the fight which may not be apparent when reading strats versus doing the fight. There really isn't much spike damage on Blood Queen despite the number of abilities she possesses. Both Pact of the Darkfallen and Swarming Shadows give you a 1.5-3s warning of who they're being targeted on before they start doing damage, with both being on fairly predictable timers, and they do not both come out at the same time (or at least on the same person), that we ever saw, meaning that nobody is going to take more than aura + 10k damage at any given time. There are very few ways for many sources of damage to all converge on one person to gib them unless serious mistakes are made.

#43 Hamlet

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 05:00 PM

Well, nobody takes dangerous damage at Twins unless they plow orbs in the first place. Those same people will stand in the purple fire or forget to move for Pact at Queen. I'd been thinking of Queen as more dangerous to random raid members overall (but that might only be because it's new).

#44 Carebare

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 05:38 PM

I really think it is the new vs. old factor comparison wise. Twins still has that last element of possible danger when say Light Vortex is coming and people are gunning for a color change and RNG wrecks them with a ton of light orbs floating all around the portal. The largest hurdle for us on Queen was the hey now everyone is unfeared, no really please spread out. The ground phase did not pose a serious threat to anyone at any point. Again, we 6 healed and I'm sure that had something to do with it. We'll probably drop to 5 healers next time I'd imagine, we just try to keep the same people for the full clear to avoid locking people unnecessarily. On normal mode with badges being so needed the content is not difficult enough to warrant rotating people in/out and slicing their badge income.
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#45 Feya

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 04:37 AM

Mostly directed at Hamlet... I know theres a discussion ongoing as to the huge impact Revitalize has on raids. Do you know of any math, or have any that could help analyze the quantity of revitalize procs on a druid using Rapid Rejuv versus without?

We were having a debate as to the theoretical maxing of revitalize procs on the Queen fight. Which would maximize the procs in a 25man raid? Two druids with Rapid Rejuv or Two druids without? Would a split of one with, one without be better? Not even quite sure how to phrase the question better, but basically i'm asking if anyones determined the uptime of Revitalize (or quantity of procs whatever) with the two Rejuv approachs?

#46 Arentios

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 04:56 AM

Revitalize proc chances are constant by tick, so assuming you cast the same number of Rejuvenations, you'll get the same number of expected tics, with or without the glyph. You'd just have more opportunity for ticks on individual people with RR since you'd be recasting Rejuvenation on them more often. Since some classes benefit more from Revitalize than others, RR would likely give you slightly more DPS if that was your main goal.

#47 psychoazn

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 11:26 AM

Is there anyone else using regrowth as their primary heal? It seems to go against the trend, but there are several reasons that I believe support it's use.

1. When a reactive heal is needed, you have an instant 'big' tick in roughly 1 second, as opposed to 2 seconds with rejuv. Cast time is not much more than Nourish, likely less than .15 different if NG is procced, which is often the case when blanketing the raid with Regrowth.

2. A HoT is left ticking for a MUCH longer period of time (27 seconds vs roughly 11 seconds on my RR Rejuv, or 8 seconds of a LB). This can help mitigate a lot of 'small' raid damage, such as the Abom's aura on Putricide

3. Living Seed further mitigates damage to the raid. My parses show it from being anywhere from 4% to 8% of my effective heals, depending on the fight.

4. Clipping your Regrowth with Glyph of Regrowth provides even more reactive healing, and enhances your ticking HoT.

5. HPM efficiency is not far behind Rejuventation. In my case, under 5%.

6. It is more likely that a HoT will be rolling on any targets that may need Swiftmend.


Downsides:

1. It costs a hell of a lot more mana, as casting Regrowth every GCD yields roughly -1000mp5 over a 5x1 if sustained. I currently take advantage of every Blue slot with SP/SPI, as the extra MP5 is necessary. If I am purely spamming regrowth, self-innervating is absolutely required, and I will likely need Mana Tide as well. Hymn is typically saved as a last resort, as the DPS loss isn't ideal. Mana usage can be situationally controlled by going back to a standard Rejuv/LB spam. My Meta returns mana, and my Cloak is enchanted with Darkweave. I could further enchant everything with Spirit instead of SP, but my modeling shows that the SP drop would be too much.

2. Other healers all think you're on crack.


I still do fill in with rejuvenation and WG, and cast LB on the tank with spare GCDs. In 25 mans, raw throughput is marginally increased, but in 10 mans, switching to Regrowth for healing has pushed my throughput through the roof. Blood Queen 10 man yielded roughly 11k HPS with regrowth as my primary heal. I would reactively heal with Regrowth, while rolling out rejuvs when there was no reactive healing to be done as well as filling in with WG. In this case, the other two healers were a Shammy and Paladin.

I would also note that the Shammy has noticed a drop in throughput from Chainheal after I switched to Regrowth.

#48 Rijndael

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 11:40 AM

Regrowth doesn't work with Revitalize, you can't move while casting it, and our tier bonuses don't work with it. Even matching Rejuv in throughput isn't enough for a candidate primary heal, it must also match all the other advantages Rejuv offers.

#49 Videl

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 11:53 AM

I'm a big fan of RR most of the time. One of the great things about druid raid healing is we're sort of uniquely not dependant on targets being clumped together to be effective. It would always depend on your comp, but even though revitalize is mostly only a dps boost for melee classes we're still going to get favored to heal ranged that have to spread out over melee because things like chain heal, CoH and glyph of HL. That makes it really likely that the best use of us is being assigned to about 10 people who are forced to stay spread out and at range (which seems to be a somewhat popular mechanic these days).
The only situation where I would not use it is if the raid healing was consistent with regular rejuv and I was going to take responsibility for 15+ people (like regular twins) or if for some reason the fight mechanics made glyph of rejuvenation really powerful (no fights I can think of right now, maybe some anub strats).

@Carebare
In defense of RR, there're a few of logical fallacies in the complaints you listed about it for Blood Queen.

There's nothing about RR that particularly makes 5x1 spam more or less doable. It doesn't affect the GCD. The falling behind on the rotation you describe happens without the glyph as well. Perhaps you were just more conscious of it because you were really trying to WG the melee as often as possible. Realistically, it may be better to take responsibility for only rejuving 9 people with RR, just as 13-14 people is all rejuv realistically stays up on without RR (assuming WG whenever you can of course). Similarly, it doesn't affect mana consumption for a 5x1 rotation, assuming you're still casting as fast as you can all the time in either situation.

I think it's worth pointing out that if you fall behind and have to slip a swiftmend in there rejuv will fall off a person, but with RR the length between your rejuv ticks with a skipped GCD inbetween is still only 3 seconds, just as a rejuv without RR would be. If that's a problem, dropping RR shouldn't really fix it.

It sounds like for a well geared tree RR with 100% uptime is excessive for blood queen. So if you're using 2 trees to do nearly all your aura healing it is probably better to play it how you guys did, but I expect that if you're just running 1 tree RR covering the range with WG and another raid healing class on melee works better. As you said, raid strat and comp dictate a lot. It's valuable to have that versatility to work with different other classes.


Especially with 2 druids, I'd argue that a potential "someone gets gibbed factor" is the sort of thing that really favors RR. You'll still expect to have rejuv up on most the dps for swiftmends (a few less at any given time, randomly distributed) but people don't often die to that stuff if there's a healer who can respond to it right away anyhow (either way a quick nourish/regrowth or such is going to keep the person up) but if you can't get to it right away the RR rejuv is doing 150% as much hps and ticking faster until you can.

#50 Demagogue

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 03:14 PM

There's nothing about RR that particularly makes 5x1 spam more or less doable. It doesn't affect the GCD. The falling behind on the rotation you describe happens without the glyph as well. Perhaps you were just more conscious of it because you were really trying to WG the melee as often as possible. Realistically, it may be better to take responsibility for only rejuving 9 people with RR, just as 13-14 people is all rejuv realistically stays up on without RR (assuming WG whenever you can of course). Similarly, it doesn't affect mana consumption for a 5x1 rotation, assuming you're still casting as fast as you can all the time in either situation.


I don't really agree with this...

1. With RR your Rejuv should be around 12-13 seconds. Covering 9-10 targets that gives you 2-4 'free' GCDs assuming a good latency. Without RR your Rejuv is 18 seconds. Covering 13-14 targets (your estimate) that gives you 4-5 'free' GCDs assuming a good latency. +0-3 GCD

2. Like Carebare I run with another druid, neither of us have RR at the moment. So we can cover 13-14 targets each. or 26-28 of a 25man group. with RR that number would be reduced to 9-10 targets each or 18-20 of a 25m group. This means there are 5-7 targets without any rejuv.


This does several things:
a) I can ALWAYS swiftmend a target. Even if I don't have a HoT on them the other druid would so SM is always an option for a big hit instantly.
B) There are now 5-7 targets that need picked up by another healer. In either case I am going to be GCD locked (as you stated still casting as fast as I can), with SM or WGs being tossed in my 'free GCDs' slots.
c) Those 5-7 targets are now eating up someone elses manapool.

E.g.

Lets say for the sake of this example, that we have TreeA with a 12s RR Rejuv and that 10 Rejuv, +2 WG cost 2000 mana,
Lets also say that we have TreeB with a 18s Rejuv and that 15 Rejuc, + 3 WG costs 3000 mana

After 3 minutes (180 seconds) the RR Rejuv cycle would have been repeated 15 times (180s/12s) and cost that person
30k mana. After 3 minutes (180 seconds) the Normal Rejuv cycle would have been repeated 10 times (180s/18s) and cost that person 30k mana. Everything is equal, between the two druids, right? Except for there are 5-7 targets that some other healer has had to cover because I couldn't as TreeA. So where it didn't hurt TreeA's mana at all to use RR, it did hurt the overall manapool of the healers in the raid.


I started at Group 1 with normal RJ, Melador at Group 5. For the most part I could RJ group 1/WG centered on our feral, RJ group 2/WG centered on our feral, 3 or so people in group 3 + any 2 people who felt lower than they should be/WG again. I had room to spare if I needed (running out for flames, during the airphase having a ton of RJs up with the ability to mend or Nourish patch with at least one HoT already in place.


Carebare, I'm curious of how you do your 'centered on our feral' part. I do something very similar with my WG only on a warrior, although your point of ferals/dks getting more out of revitalize may have me changing it. I only pick our fury warrior because he, for the most part, is aware enough not to fail on things.

Anyways, do you just target your feral and hit WG (mouseover/target+keybind) or do you have it macro'd? Currently I have a focus macro made for my WG that will cast it on anyone I have focused. (Bound to Q) and then my normal WG spell (Bound to 6) for when I need my WG to go somewhere else (A cluster of ranged for example). My macro just seems somewhat ... clunky at times, and if he moves out of range it won't cast so I've been trying to work a more effective way to do that piece of my 5x1 rotation especially on fights where I need it (BQ /Putricide P3)

#51 grimtage

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 07:26 PM

The throughput on Rapid Rejuv is zero when doing 5x1 rotation, since the only thing that matters is the health per cast time which is independent of Rapid Rejuv; the only case where RR does actually effect your throughput is when you have less than 15 people to cast it on, which is always in 10mans and not yet happened in 25mans (in terms of raid AoE damage healing).

((Warning: I completely ignore the effects of Revitalize for the remainder of this post, as I'm not trying to say one way or the other if RR is useful, I'm merely pointing out situations where RR could be useful that I didn't see already posted. My point is merely that RR allows you to tailor to your raid group more than without RR.))

However, that being said, I would prefer to use 2 druids with RR on 25man Lana'thel over 2 druids without it. This is due to the mechanic where your dps are "vampires" and get 15% lifesteal. This means that the healers need significantly more healing and thus it is noticeably better to use 2 druids who cover 1 caster group and the healer group each. It's not completely dependent on the fight mechanic either, as dps will tend to get other things such as JoL procs. I pretty much always WG on melee in a 5x1 situation, and the more druids/shamans/paladins with HL glyph/holy priests or just healers with trauma you have, the less reason to ever RJ melee/tank groups and the more reason to stick to RJing the ranged classes.

For another example of it's uses, if you have two rdruids(very common in my guild) with RR on a fight like Twin Val'kyr, you can clump together the people you expect to take the most orb damage into one group and have both druids RJ that group and 1 other group each. This will be 3/4 of the healing of just having two druids spam on all 3 on the two other groups and 3/2 of the healing on the group that both druids are hitting.

p.s. I know this is generally unneeded, but I would feel amiss if I didn't include it: To give some basis to the numbers 3/4 and 3/2, going from a 18sec RJ to a 12sec RJ gives 50% boost to throughput for each RJ for 10 targets, meaning 3/2 amount of RJ on the group with both druids, but the other two groups have 1/2 of the RJ of the group that is getting focused, meaning the other two groups have 3/2 * 1/2 = 3/4.

#52 Ogbar

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 09:41 PM

The throughput on Rapid Rejuv is zero when doing 5x1 rotation, since the only thing that matters is the health per cast time which is independent of Rapid Rejuv; the only case where RR does actually effect your throughput is when you have less than 15 people to cast it on, which is always in 10mans and not yet happened in 25mans (in terms of raid AoE damage healing).


The best terminology for how RR affects healing is concentration vs. spread. Spread being expressed as number of targets and concentration being stated as ticks per target.

Assuming 5x1, and just considering Rejuv, at haste cap a tree will have the following from an 18 second sample:

Without RR a spread of 15 and a concentration of 6.

With RR a spread of 10 and a concentration of 9.

For 2 druids:
Without RR a spread of 25 (the raid max) and a concentration of 7.2

With RR a spread of 20 and a concentration of 9.

If we talk about slipping other spells into rotation though, the numbers start to explain the "feeling" of falling behind, assuming less casts for each, lets see 4x1x1

Without: spread=12 concentration=6
With: spread=8 concentration=9

For 2 druids:
Without: spread=24 concentration=6
With: spread=16 concentration=9

So you can see easily why it feels like you've fallen behind with RR and 2 druids, 9 or 25 raiders aren't swiftmendable and are completely uncovered by a rejuv, a 25% difference in spread. That said, the 16 that are covered by RR are receiving 50% more healing. Raid strategy comes into play here, do your druids cover everyone and your other healers help top off everyone OR are your druids dedicated to the 16 they cover and the other healers dedicated to the remaining 9.

For a class that is used to providing raid wide stability, the former is the status quo and thus what a lot of us feel more comfortable with and expect when raiding.

#53 Carebare

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 10:20 PM

Carebare, I'm curious of how you do your 'centered on our feral' part. I do something very similar with my WG only on a warrior, although your point of ferals/dks getting more out of revitalize may have me changing it. I only pick our fury warrior because he, for the most part, is aware enough not to fail on things.

Anyways, do you just target your feral and hit WG (mouseover/target+keybind) or do you have it macro'd? Currently I have a focus macro made for my WG that will cast it on anyone I have focused. (Bound to Q) and then my normal WG spell (Bound to 6) for when I need my WG to go somewhere else (A cluster of ranged for example). My macro just seems somewhat ... clunky at times, and if he moves out of range it won't cast so I've been trying to work a more effective way to do that piece of my 5x1 rotation especially on fights where I need it (BQ /Putricide P3)


I do not mouseover heal at all. I don't like it. I definitely don't mean to start a debate on it either. We run our groups nearly identically every week. I know precisely who is where and I've kind of memorized their general position on grid. I was selecting the feral then pressing 'c' -- my WG key. The only macro healing I have is 1 and 2, which are each bound to /target tankname /cast lifebloom. That way with free globals I can quickly stack the tanks without having to click on their names. I have a bar that lines up with grid of all of my abilities with cooldowns, so I can quickly see as my WG is coming off CD and then sort of keep in my head "OK 2 more RJs then smack WG". To make sure I am maintaining every global I will pick out someone I don't have RJ on to be the follow-up cast so I won't lose anytime trying to figure out my next target. In a strict 5x1 like Queen, I find that basically planning 4-5 moves ahead works. If I have to slip in a mend I just pick back up off that mental list after I've casted it.
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#54 Demagogue

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 11:30 PM

The LB macros are a really good idea I'll have to see where I can find two bind keys I think. We have a pretty solid attendance on our 25s as well, for about 22 slots, and although people constantly get shuffled around (annoys me to no end) the key people are always there. I have my grid slightly larger so I can see the countdown on my WG from within it and just use that to keep tabs on my CD as well.

Being new to the more dedicated 5x1 healing I find planning a few moves ahead helps me a lot. I have been debating having a talk with our other tree and essentially setting up a 'Okay I'll cover groups 1,3,5 you cover groups 1,2,4' (group1 is tanks and a couple other key people) to focus our rejuv blanketing, but I find range makes that hard to follow at times, more so on fights where people are wandering around a lot so I haven't bothered yet and we just kind of 'wing it'

#55 Carebare

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 11:53 PM

Yea I never liked rigid assignments for that reason really. This is probably why I'm not a huge fan of RR glyph which kind of requires that you do that. On twins we've just always taken opposite sides of the room and gone with heal what's in range strategy. For Queen we did loose assignments, I'll take 1/2, you take 4/5 and we'll cross cover 3. It worked well enough and we both liked the less assigned version. It really is a play style thing and hey whatever works.
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Aldriana: I am an asshole, it just so happens that some of my colleagues are even *bigger* assholes.
[R] [85:Neux:2]: i hear if you die on Good Friday they are going to make it where you can't get rezzed until easter sunday
Khazal: Yeah, I don't know about Magic Rainbow Unicorn Land, but here in Reality, Rhyolith is the worst encounter Blizzard has ever designed.

#56 Carnathagia

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 12:58 AM

I raid with another excellent Tree, and instead of specific group assignments we use a priority system. I will prioritize group 1 > group 5, while she prioritizes group 5 > group 1. This doesn't tie you into a specific group in the case you are out of range or your group isn't really going take damage, but it also ensures everyone is someone's priority to heal. We both use the RR glyph. On a few specific fights, notably Twins, we are split up and will cover our respective clusters.
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#57 Rijndael

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Posted 24 January 2010 - 08:16 PM

Another note on the RR glyph: you can mimic its focusing mechanism by sacrificing extra GCDs on rolling lifeblooms on top of ordinary rejuvs on targets that require it. If this is almost always sufficient to handle "focused targets," perhaps this glyph isn't so strong after all.

#58 Jezz

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 12:58 PM

Another note on the RR glyph: you can mimic its focusing mechanism by sacrificing extra GCDs on rolling lifeblooms on top of ordinary rejuvs on targets that require it. If this is almost always sufficient to handle "focused targets," perhaps this glyph isn't so strong after all.


Lifebloom doesn't proc Revitalize and doesn't benefit from any set bonuses. Not to mention the fact that we don't really have any glyphs that are completely mandatory, we can definitely afford to drop another glyph for RR. Even if you could replicate the same amount of healing by rolling lifeblooms along with it, which I am not convinced you can, it is clearly not worth it.

#59 Hamlet

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 01:27 AM

Minor OP update, fixed Tree of Life and Hurricane macros.

#60 FrozenHell

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 09:48 AM

Rapid Rejuv is not something that any of our resto druids find useful, its certainly not useful at all for any 25 man content currently available. The healers in our guild (and virtually all of our raiders) deal with 400-500ms latency as normal when playing (Oceanic players playing on a US based "Oceanic" realm), so that might vary the results, as effectively we do lose reaction time and GCDs even with spell queuing due to that latency.

If you were doing a lot of substantial tank healing RR might be useful, but then I'd be going for Nourish and Lifebloom glyphs more than likely if that were the case. The only upcoming fight that I'll glyph it for again will be Valithria, as it will be an outright increase in healing output, but that fight is obviously an anomaly compared to every other encounter in ICC.

For Lana'thel we ran two resto druids, which we usually do as our standard healing setup anyway and the raid healing was very stable apart from when people did silly things. I used the normal Glyph of Rejuv (as did our other tree), but it was only on our wipe attempts that it did any useful healing as people were doing stupid things, whereas on our kill the healing it did was almost nothing (i.e. 10k) which was different from Twins where it'd almost always do what I'd consider a "life saving" amount of healing.




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