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[Enhancement] BiS gear and set-up discussion (3.3 and onward)


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#21 Nevets_69

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 03:32 AM

Managed to refine the current setup to produce 12237 dps.

Here's a link to a zip file contain my Enhsim config, output, as well as a Rawr Config file: link.

Just a note in case you use the currently displayed Rawr xml file it has a couple of issues I had to work out first.
* The fight length is set for 10 minutes
* The talents still have 1 in Shamanistic focus and 1 in Improved Shields (instead of 2 in Imp Shields)
* Totem of the Avalanche is still equipped instead of Bizuri's Totem of Shattered Ice

Other than fixing those minor things in the Rawr xml file, all I did was switch some of the haste gems to hit gems. I just replaced them one by one until the DPS from Enhsim stopped increasing. 12237 dps was as high as I could get it to go.

If you need anything further to update, don't hesitate to ask.
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#22 sirtyface

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 04:42 AM

Managed to scrounge out another 35 dps (averaged over 5 trials) over Nevets' build by switching the Flame Shock glyph to the Windfury Weapon glyph, and taking a point out of Reverb and putting it into Imp. Shields:

12271.03 DPS

Config:
### Saved by v1.9.5.8 of EnhSimGUI

config_version                  1.9.5.8
simulation_time                 5000
simulation_time_combatlog       300
combat_length                   7.00
report_count                    80
threads                         1
combat_length_rng_factor        0.35
min_lag                         230
max_lag                         260
simulate_mana                   1
cast_sr_on_cooldown             1

ep_precision                    2
ep_base_stat                    ap
ep_ap                           200
ep_crit_rating                  30
ep_hit_rating                   30
ep_expertise                    4
ep_haste_rating                 30
ep_armor_penetration_rating     30
ep_spellpower                   150
ep_dps                          7.5
ep_mana                         250
ep_spirit                       150
ep_mp5                          20

mh_auto_attack                  1
oh_auto_attack                  1
wait_ss_with_wf_cd              0.00
cast_ll_only_if_wf_on_cd        1
bloodlust_casters               1
sync_bloodlust_with_trinkets    1
cast_lvb_only_if_ed_left        15.0
cast_lvb_only_if_fsdots_left    4
cast_lvb_only_if_fs_active      1
cast_fs_only_if_dots_left       0
cast_ls_only_if_charges_left    2
cast_magma_only_if_ticks_left   1
cast_sr_only_if_mana_left       5000
use_mana_potion_if_mana_left    3000
necrotic_touch                  1
necrotic_touch_heroic           0

rotation_priority_count         13
rotation_priority1              SW
rotation_priority2              SR
rotation_priority3              SS_0
rotation_priority4              MW5_LB
rotation_priority5              FE
rotation_priority6              FS
rotation_priority7              ES_SS
rotation_priority8              SS
rotation_priority9              MT
rotation_priority10             ES
rotation_priority11             LS
rotation_priority12             LL
rotation_priority13             FN

fight_name                      
miss                            8.0
dodge                           6.5
glancing                        24.0
armor                           10643
spell_miss                      17.0
nature_resistance               0
fire_resistance                 0
frost_resistance                0
arcane_resistance               0
shadow_resistance               0

additional_targets              0
additional_target_percent       25.0
additional_target_level         0
cast_cl_when_aoe                0

armor_debuff_major              20.0/20.0
armor_debuff_minor              5.0/5.0
physical_vulnerability_debuff   4.0/4.0
melee_haste_buff                20.0/20.0
melee_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
attack_power_buff_flat          687/687
attack_power_buff_multiplier    99.7/99.7
spell_haste_buff                5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_debuff        5.0/5.0
spell_damage_debuff             13.0/13.0
spellpower_buff                 280/280
spell_hit_chance_debuff         3.0/3.0
haste_buff                      3.0/3.0
percentage_damage_increase      3.0/3.0
crit_chance_debuff              3.0/3.0
stat_multiplier                 10.0/10.0
stat_add_buff                   51/51
agi_and_strength_buff           178/178
intellect_buff                  60/60

replenishment                   1
water_shield                    0
mana_spring_totem               0
blessing_of_wisdom              1
judgement_of_wisdom             1
mixology                        0

flask_elixir                    flask_of_endless_rage
guardian_elixir                 -
potion                          potion_of_speed
food                            fish_feast

###############################################################################
### Everything in the section below can be replaced by information obtained ###
### from your paper doll stats or exported by the ShockAndAwe addon         ###
###############################################################################

race                            tauren
mh_speed                        2.6
oh_speed                        2.6
mh_dps                          250.6
oh_dps                          250.6
mh_crit                         49.63
oh_crit                         49.63
mh_hit                          16.62
oh_hit                          16.62
mh_expertise_rating             140
oh_expertise_rating             140
ap                              5358
melee_haste                     31.52
armor_penetration               13.22
str                             151
agi                             1727
int                             806
spi                             171
spellpower                      1607
spell_crit                      33.02
spell_hit                       20.78
spell_haste                     24.25
max_mana                        16206
mp5                             0

mh_imbue                        windfury
oh_imbue                        flametongue

mh_enchant                      berserking
oh_enchant                      berserking

mh_weapon                       fist
oh_weapon                       fist

trinket1                        herkuml_war_token
trinket2                        tiny_abomination_in_a_jar_heroic

totem                           bizuris_totem_of_shattered_ice

set_bonus1                      t10_battlegear_4
set_bonus2                      -
set_bonus3                      -

metagem                         chaotic_skyflare_diamond

gloves_enchant                  -
cloak_enchant                   -
ring_proc                       ashen_verdict

glyph_major1                    feral_spirit
glyph_major2                    windfury_weapon
glyph_major3                    stormstrike

glyph_minor1                    -
glyph_minor2                    -
glyph_minor3                    -

ancestral_knowledge             2/5
improved_shields                3/3
mental_dexterity                3/3
shamanistic_focus               0/1
flurry                          5/5
elemental_weapons               3/3
unleashed_rage                  3/3
weapon_mastery                  3/3
dual_wield_specialization       3/3
mental_quickness                3/3
improved_stormstrike            0/2
static_shock                    3/3
maelstrom_weapon                5/5

convection                      0/5
concussion                      5/5
call_of_flame                   3/3
elemental_devastation           3/3
reverberation                   1/5
elemental_focus                 0/1
elemental_fury                  5/5
improved_fire_nova              2/2
call_of_thunder                 0/1
unrelenting_storm               0/3
elemental_precision             0/3
lightning_mastery               0/5
elemental_oath                  0/2
lightning_overload              0/5
lava_flows                      0/3
storm_earth_and_fire            0/3
shamanism                       0/5

Output:
EnhSim version 1.9.5.8

................................................................................

MH:
miss                680505         4.38%
dodge               0              0.00%
glancing            3732091        24.00%
hit                 886219         5.70%
crit                10249424       65.92%
average ap          9514.41        
clip                0              0.00%

MH Windfury:
procs/hits          14.45%
procs/swings        13.89%
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               0              0.00%
hit                 1507888        30.98%
crit                3359550        69.02%
average ap          9500.73        

MH Storsmtrike:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               0              0.00%
hit                 610599         31.01%
crit                1358730        68.99%
average ap          9487.58        

OH:
miss                682230         4.39%
dodge               0              0.00%
glancing            3731914        24.00%
hit                 888118         5.71%
crit                10246022       65.90%
average ap          9538.32        
clip                0              0.00%

OH Flametongue:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 11545295       52.74%
crit                10346627       47.26%
average sp          3458.32        

OH Stormstrike:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               0              0.00%
hit                 610776         31.01%
crit                1358553        68.99%
average ap          9532.17        

Earth Shock:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 803189         52.72%
crit                720232         47.28%
average sp          3444.59        

Flame Shock:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 427094         52.67%
crit                383770         47.33%
average sp          3454.47        
dots hit            4743880        100.00%
dots crit           0              0.00%
average dot sp      3454.76        

Lava Lash:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               0              0.00%
hit                 606545         30.91%
crit                1355546        69.09%
average ap          9475.91        

Lightning Bolt:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 1654628        52.72%
crit                1484145        47.28%
average sp          3493.55        

Fire Nova:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 708348         52.66%
crit                636832         47.34%
average sp          3437.63        

Lightning Shield:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 2926935        100.00%
crit                0              0.00%
average sp          3464.51        

Spirit Wolves:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               0              0.00%
glancing            2009186        23.99%
hit                 5404274        64.52%
crit                962132         11.49%
average ap          9611.82        

Magma Totem:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 3059213        52.77%
crit                2738190        47.23%
average sp          3450.93        

Tiny Abomination in a Jar:
MH
  hit               525585         16.98%
  crit              1021223        33.00%
OH
  hit               525712         16.99%
  crit              1021928        33.02%

Fire Elemental Melee:
miss                89685          7.97%
dodge               47488          4.22%
glancing            270444         24.04%
hit                 683843         60.78%
crit                33595          2.99%

Fire Elemental Fire Shield:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 1567499        91.99%
crit                136524         8.01%

Fire Elemental Fire Nova:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 628129         91.98%
crit                54757          8.02%

Fire Elemental Fire Blast:
miss                0              0.00%
hit                 1091535        92.00%
crit                94913          8.00%

Fire Elemental stats:
average ap          9981.09        
average sp          3593.97        
MPS                 91.19          
MPCooldown          10943.19       
Out of mana time    1.09%
MRPCooldown         2718.21        
MRPS                22.76          

Fire Elemental      MRPS without overregen
mana regen          0.42      1.85%
judgement of wisdom 22.23     98.15%


Maelstrom Weapon:
PPM                 62.98
efficiency          83.07%

flurry uptime                  97.05%
elemental devastation uptime   89.87%
mh enchant uptime              54.85%
oh enchant uptime              55.30%
stormstrike debuff uptime      81.97%
flame shock uptime             79.35%
lightning shield uptime        97.18%
magma totem uptime             64.09%
fire elemental uptime          28.56%

totem uptime                   99.96%
ring proc uptime               16.56%
necrotic touch uptime          55.48%


Set bonus uptimes:
Frost Witch's Battlegear 2 piece        26.01%
Frost Witch's Battlegear 4 piece        41.26%

                    MRPS without overregen
mana regen          0.00      0.00%
mp5                 16.29     4.95%
replenishment       43.13     13.10%
unrelenting storm   0.00      0.00%
judgement of wisdom 108.40    32.92%
shamanistic rage    161.47    49.04%
mana potion         0.00      0.00%
misc                0.00      0.00%
stormstrike         0.00      0.00%

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
white               4163.20   33.92%    103.66
windfury            1454.49   11.85%    8.11
flametongue         1120.03   9.13%     72.97
stormstrike         575.69    4.69%     6.56      36.17     10.69%
lava lash           405.38    3.3%      6.54      18.02     5.33%
magma totem         467.47    3.81%     2.12      39.39     11.64%
earth shock         437.83    3.57%     5.08      62.95     18.61%
flame shock         260.79    2.12%     2.70      31.65     9.35%
lightning bolt      1330.55   10.84%    10.46     76.66     22.66%
fire nova           276.75    2.25%     4.48      67.94     20.08%
lightning shield    352.42    2.87%     1.39      0.00      0.00%
tiny abomination    222.24    1.81%     10.31
necrotic touch      361.32    2.94%     82.47
spirit wolves       379.47    3.09%     0.40      3.28      0.97%
fire elemental      465.17    3.79%     0.14      2.26      0.67%
  melee             215.86    46.4%     3.75
  fire shield       16.21     3.48%     5.68
  fire nova         120.64    25.94%    2.28
  fire blast        112.46    24.18%    3.95

DPS                 12272.78
MPS                 338.30
MP2min              40596.57
MRPS                530.43
Out of mana time    0.00%

elapsed simulation time: 5000.00h
elapsed real time: 23.92s
simulation speed: 752571x

Note: I copied Rava's config file from the first post simply for testing talents/glyphs. As such, I do not have a Rawr file built, but his (and associated notes) serve the same purpose (except to replace the FS glyph with WF).

#23 Levva

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 06:28 PM

Please re-confirm the TAiaJ being in this list given the hotfixes applied and now implemented in v1.9.6.1 of EnhSim.
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#24 Guest_Acks_*

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 08:00 PM

Rava, a few issues:

1. the config in the OP lists 250-350 reaction time, but your follow up post instructs us to use 230-260. With the 230-260 reaction time values, I am getting 12336 dps.

2. By unchecking the attack power buff multiplier box (i.e. use UR), i get a few more dps.

3. Moving FE down the list to just above MT yields a few more dps as well. This makes no sense to me as FE is only used once a fight and neither configurations differ otherwise.

4. With regards to reaction time, assuming the player knows which ability to use next and is spamming that key while waiting for GCD expiration, wouldn't the human element be more like ~100ms, and thus 160-180 ms for the reaction time values? Apologies if im missing something here.

Edit: 20ms would be 50 button presses per second which i realize now is ridiculous. Replaced with 100ms which seems likely given a vigorous button spamming frequency.

#25 Krish

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 08:14 PM

3. Moving FE down the list to just above MT yields a few more dps as well. This makes no sense to me as FE is only used once a fight and neither configurations differ otherwise.


My educated guess is that by moving FE down the list some, the simulator is deploying it a GCD or two later, by which time, on average, you will have gained more AP (and thus SP) from trinket, totem, ring, and berserking procs. Since the FE's damage scales with SP, and the amount is determined only once when the totem is first dropped, that likely explains the increased DPS in the sim.

#26 Existana

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 08:43 PM

Does anyone plan to tackle a BiS non-heroic gear and set-up list? Rava expressed if someone were to put together a list, he would consider maintaining it.

#27 Gbits

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 08:49 PM

While less relevant to the mission of discovering true BiS, that would be extremely helpful. I'd volunteer to help with some of the lifting, but don't consider myself competent enough to establish/maintain it.

[e] Typo

#28 rava

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 08:55 PM

4. With regards to reaction time, assuming the player knows which ability to use next and is spamming that key while waiting for GCD expiration, wouldn't the human element be more like ~100ms, and thus 160-180 ms for the reaction time values? Apologies if im missing something here.


The numbers requested are probably on the generous side and we can certainly get them more exact.

Way to get more accurate numbers:

1. Go to a target dummy
2. Being autoattacking the dummy
3. Cast a totem(totem is important because it is a 1 second GCD)
4. Immediately mash Stormstrike until it goes off
5. Count how many key presses it took you for the Stormstrike to go off(for me it's 8)
6. Divide 1 by the amount of keypresses it took for your Stormstrike to go off
7. Multiply the result by 1000
8. Subtract your in game latency from the result(my latency is 63)

So my numbers would look like: (1/8*1000)-63 or a reaction time of 62 MS

Before the thread starts getting spammed with latency figures, is there anything in that list that seems off or should be corrected? My figures are only included in there as an example, and is not a welcome invitation to post "I have 50 MS reaction time" posts in this thread.

Potential issues:

Dishonesty!
Lag variance
Is it enough variance when accounting for awareness during raids
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#29 Guest_Acks_*

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 09:13 PM

My figures are only included in there as an example, and is not a welcome invitation to post "I have 50 MS reaction time" posts in this thread.

Potential issues:

Dishonesty!
Lag variance
Is it enough variance when accounting for awareness during raids


I could be wrong but I dont think a small variation in reaction time / latency would put one piece of gear over another in the BiS list, so 230-260 is fair enough to account for network latency, spamming latency and environmental awareness. Our only other recourse would be to amass a large number of latency samples using your method above, which seems like splitting hairs.

One other small tweak to your basic EnhSim config: Changing "cast SR only if mana left" to a lower number like 1000 increases the overall dps by a tiny amount.

Lastly, would it be wise to set a minimum dps increase value to avoid posts that provide a 2 dps increase? For example, perhaps a 50 dps minimum increase in dps before a change in gear configuration will be posted? I just ran the sim twice, with a scant 10ms change in latency (240-270) and this account for ~30dps change, so I think arguments on BiS gear regarding a 30 dps change aren't really accomplishing anything.

#30 Deathicle

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 09:26 PM

It doesn't seem likely that TAiaJ is one of the BiS trinkets. The non-heroic one sims out as being worse than CT, WFS and DBW. There are heroic version of 2 of those trinkets too.

Edit: I just checked some of the numbers and if the sim is modeling TAiaJ correctly, then it is indeed the BiS. If the sim is correct, does anyone have an explanation for why TAiaJ suddenly jumps in potency?

Edit2: The likely culprit is the fact that we are will easily be crit capped with WFS, and likewise lose out on 1/3rd of the effectiveness of DBW.

#31 Odìn

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 09:49 PM

I just don't understand why, fire nova being at the very bottom of the priority list, you bother taking the Improved fire nova talent in your Spec. By gemming and gearing for a maximum haste like that, we really don't have a free GCD as MW will stack very fast.

#32 Deathicle

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 09:56 PM

I just don't understand why, fire nova being at the very bottom of the priority list, you bother taking the Improved fire nova talent in your Spec. By gemming and gearing for a maximum haste like that, we really don't have a free GCD as MW will stack very fast.


Maybe there aren't any better dps talents to be taken? The only place you could concievably move those 2 points too would be Reverberation - all other DPS talents are taken. A quick check with the simulator shows that this is indeed a dps loss and therefore you should put your 2 points into Improved Fire Nova.

#33 Angael

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 10:24 PM

Has anyone simmed the numbers using Black Magic on the OH slot rather than Berserking before I was able to spot any posts to the tune of what effect that produced?

#34 Cobs

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 10:25 PM

Imp Fire nova also increases damage done by 20% and you are still going to use FN in your rotation whether it is at the bottom or not so it will be a DPS increase. Also due to the RNG nature of MW and thus our ability priority it is good to always have abilities ready so the CD reduction helps. The talent goes from a marginal DPS increase on a single target fight to one of if not THE best DPS per talent once there are more than 1 target so even at a DPS wash imp FN is the way to go.

#35 vexsanity

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 10:34 PM

BiS rawr sheet has an expertise gem in the neck but your table has a hit gem.

#36 Rouncer

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 10:47 PM

It doesn't seem likely that TAiaJ is one of the BiS trinkets. The non-heroic one sims out as being worse than CT, WFS and DBW. There are heroic version of 2 of those trinkets too.

Edit: I just checked some of the numbers and if the sim is modeling TAiaJ correctly, then it is indeed the BiS. If the sim is correct, does anyone have an explanation for why TAiaJ suddenly jumps in potency?

Edit2: The likely culprit is the fact that we are will easily be crit capped with WFS, and likewise lose out on 1/3rd of the effectiveness of DBW.


It's not the crit cap. It's that the heroic version of T-Bom is much better (Manifests Anger at 7 stacks instead of 8) then the regular version combined with the 4T10 set bonus which greatly exaggerates the melee aspect of our dps. Also the T-Bom just scales amazingly well with gear/weapons.


(edit) Well, it's not entirely the crit cap. That does greatly reduce the value of all that static crit on H-WFS and makes the Agility proc from Deathbringer's Will less attractive then it should be, but the big differential is that H-T-Bom is just that much better since the hit remains a constant and all the ilevel boost goes into it's proc.

#37 Levva

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 01:13 AM

Ability priority order
[TABLE]1)|Spirit Wolves
2)|Shamanistic Rage
3)|Stormstrike if no SS debuff present
4)|Maelstrom Weapon x 5 stacks - Lightning Bolt
5)|Flame Shock
6)|Earthshock if Stormstrike debuff present
7)|Stormstrike
8)|Fire Elemental
9)|Magma Totem
10)|Earth Shock
11)|Lightning Shield
12)|Lava Lash
13)|Fire Nova[/TABLE]


Actually that table is flawed. Item 6 should simply be Earth Shock. As you have already put item 3 as Stormstrike if no SS debuff present. So we CANNOT reach item 6 with no SS debuff present unless SS was on CD in which case item 6 and 7 fail anyway and so you get an ES regardless. ie: SS_0 and ES_SS are mutually exclusive you cannot sensibly have both in your priorities.

Also I believe that testing showed FN before LL was a slight dps improvement with 2/2 Imp.Fire Nova?

This gives a recommended table of

[TABLE]1)|Spirit Wolves
2)|Shamanistic Rage
3)|Stormstrike if no SS debuff present
4)|Maelstrom Weapon x 5 stacks - Lightning Bolt
5)|Flame Shock
6)|Earthshock
7)|Stormstrike
8)|Fire Elemental
9)|Magma Totem
10)|Lightning Shield
11)|Fire Nova
12)|Lava Lash
[/TABLE]
Author of ShockAndAwe Enhancement Shaman max dps addon
Please use the EnhSim by Ziff & others to simulate what gear, priorities etc are the best dps. You can use ShockAndAwe to export your paperdoll stats to EnhSim.

#38 rava

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 03:30 AM

Thanks for pointing out the redundancy in the table regarding Earthshock. Removing ES_SS resulted in a 2-3 dps increase. I swapped priorities on Fire Nova and Lava Lash and I'm seeing a consistent 20 dps decrease with Enhsim. Table should be updated to reflect the redundancy.
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#39 Levva

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 04:22 PM

As for item 2, I know using Fire Elemental has limited utility or very little use in moving fights; however, it does seem to sim higher theoretical DPS for fights over 5 minutes and 45 second.


You do have to be very careful when setting the sim duration and the combat length variations. If you set it such that there is a very wide fluctuation (say the 35% that we once worked out seemed ok) then you get 5m45s +/- 35% = 345s +/- 120.75 ie: 3m44s to 7m46s which is in my opinion way too wide a margin. Simming with that wide a margin to my mind introduces a massive random factor. If you happen to get nearer the 7m46s seconds end of the scale then yes suddenly FE glyph gets really good as it can means FE can be used twice a fight if you happen to get nearer the 3m44s end of the scale then FE is utterly useless.

I cannot see the merit in comparing a 3m44s fight with a 7m46 fight they should be chalk and cheese in terms of glyph viability. Given the massive changes to EnhSim and the huge number of bug fixes and new features since Xmas I think we should re-visit what is a viable combat length variation and also what is a viable combat duration.

The whole point of introducing combat length variation was to simulate a random tweak on the combat length. Not to simulate the difference between a 3m fight and a 7m fight. So something like 6m +/- 30 seconds would be fine, any variation that is +/- 2 minutes is not realistic.
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#40 Ryethe

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 04:39 PM

You do have to be very careful when setting the sim duration and the combat length variations. If you set it such that there is a very wide fluctuation (say the 35% that we once worked out seemed ok) then you get 5m45s +/- 35% = 345s +/- 120.75 ie: 3m44s to 7m46s which is in my opinion way too wide a margin. Simming with that wide a margin to my mind introduces a massive random factor. If you happen to get nearer the 7m46s seconds end of the scale then yes suddenly FE glyph gets really good as it can means FE can be used twice a fight if you happen to get nearer the 3m44s end of the scale then FE is utterly useless.

I cannot see the merit in comparing a 3m44s fight with a 7m46 fight they should be chalk and cheese in terms of glyph viability. Given the massive changes to EnhSim and the huge number of bug fixes and new features since Xmas I think we should re-visit what is a viable combat length variation and also what is a viable combat duration.

The whole point of introducing combat length variation was to simulate a random tweak on the combat length. Not to simulate the difference between a 3m fight and a 7m fight. So something like 6m +/- 30 seconds would be fine, any variation that is +/- 2 minutes is not realistic.


The original reason this was come up with is because some stats/gearing MAY favour short fights and some stats may favour long fights. By having this kind of range we can gear such that we are ok for all lengths of fights. Of course its entirely likely that we end up not being "the best" at either extreme but a number of people thought that it beat possibly having to maintain multiple BiS lists.

For anyone looking to test out the Fire Ele glyph, you should realistically be testing its value starting at increasing fight lengths > 5 minutes. A BiS list will never be able to include the glyph due to the fact that it has negative value on some fights (by virtue of not having a different glyph in that slot). It's the sort of thing that is dangerous for people to blindly use. We cannot expect the BiS list to be the be all and end all for ICC Shamans. There is always some testing you will have to do for yourself in your own gear.




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