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[Enhancement] BiS gear and set-up discussion (3.3 and onward)


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#41 JVerbit

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 04:55 PM

The whole point of introducing combat length variation was to simulate a random tweak on the combat length. Not to simulate the difference between a 3m fight and a 7m fight. So something like 6m +/- 30 seconds would be fine, any variation that is +/- 2 minutes is not realistic.


Agreed

To get the 5:45 value I tested with 0 variation in length with switching glyphs.

Personally I generally sim 7 minutes +/- 15% giving about a minute in variation either way for my own BiS research purposes. In sims for EJ BiS comparison, I go with the OP times.

Otherwise, I may use tighter times per fight I have logs for if I wish to know particulars to when making myself slightly depressed and want to do better in future encounters.

As of now, the Professor is the only progression raid encounter that I would consider using FE glyph (fight length is too short on the other bosses). I do not actively PTR so I cannot say if future ICC bosses may benefit from this glyph choice; however, I do have a few different glyphs in my bags should I feel the need to switch.

For maximum theoretical DPS of the BiS with a 7 minute =/- 15%, FE glyph will win. +/- 35% FE glyph still wins, but by a smaller margin.

So I digress after getting OT. Looking realistically with the moving and raid awareness, FE glyph isn't practical. Fights that are static for DPS are less than 5 minutes and fights that are longer have lots of movement thus far.

Edit: Also, thanks Ryethe for the logic behind the wide length variation.

#42 Rouncer

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 06:14 PM

Problem with the professor is that movement makes it less effective as you likely won't be able to Fire Nova since he will be out of range of the totem.

Still the glyph could end up being a viable option for that fight as the Fire Elemental will move with the professor allowing more consistency in the dps from our Fire Totem over that time period. Has anyone done any testing on the distance the Fire Elemental will move from it's totem? If not I can try to work out something later.

#43 Oniwasaka

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 06:21 PM

I used fire elemental myself on professor, but for some reason it stopped moving after professor moved a bit further. While elemental shamans kept on moving. Sounds strange but it happened :/

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 06:34 PM

Since the AoE from Fire Nova emanates from the base of the totem and not the elemental, you lose significant FN dps while using the Elemental. Correct me if im wrong, but im pretty sure the Sim assumes that every FN hits the boss, which is just not the case on Putricide and many other mobile fights.

It is for this reason that BiS gear estimates can only be so accurate, as they assume a sort of ideal fight situation which often doesn't pan out in actual raids. Given this, we either create BiS for mobile fights, stand-still fights, AoE fights and single target fights, and every combination thereof, or we just concentrate on stationary/single target and let the player extend the results from there.

#45 JVerbit

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 07:22 PM

If EJ as a community decides to create and maintain lists for different conditions, then it is almost as if saying these lists are the BiS only part of the time - a paradox since these sets would no longer be truely BiS since there would be multiple sets with one set being 'better' than the others per conditional.

As said before by Ryethe, "it is not the be all and end all for ICC Shamans" but rather the best overall. This is the reason I did not pursue my post further. However, it does make one question if there could be different specs per type of fight (moving or stationary, single target or area of effect) with the BiS gear listing.

Even so, I always used BiS lists on EJ as a guide rather than a strict metric or how-to since each fight changes from boss to boss and minute details change from week to week in playing experience. Ultimately as a guide, my opinion, BiS is a reference to improve my DPS towards the theoretical maximum where I will still have to test my current gear and make my own choices.

In the end, an ideal fight with one gear set may be the best way to go. It allows for personal tweaks and fine tuning of a player's own gear and specs along the way if they wish to invest the time to research allowing them to compare their DPS against the overall BiS.

#46 Anks

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 09:42 PM

I was wondering about the amount of hit rating gems. I understand that hit rating applies a large role for us to be able to get all of our weapon procs. Is there a specific reason to push the hit rating to 525 (16.62%)? Just trying to figure out why to use 20 haste gems in certain yellow sockets and 20 hit gems in others.

#47 Makke

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 10:06 PM

I was wondering about the amount of hit rating gems. I understand that hit rating applies a large role for us to be able to get all of our weapon procs. Is there a specific reason to push the hit rating to 525 (16.62%)? Just trying to figure out why to use 20 haste gems in certain yellow sockets and 20 hit gems in others.


The hit rating gems is because in such a high gear level you are going to reach the crit depression on your melee swings wich you can surpress buy gemming hit rating. Leeva/Rouncer has a quite good post about it here in shaman forum :)

#48 Shadowfyr

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 10:21 PM

So this is my first time posting here, but i had something brought up to me that i would like someone to help with.

I've used EJ for all my BiS/info for my shaman, but recently i had a few people bringing up question to why i do. And they tried telling me that ensidia had the better BiS. Well after looking at their list and this list there are actually differences.
Now i've never used Rawr or enhsim just cause i dont understand exactly what im doing etc etc. But i at least read what you guys get from those mods.
So basically what im asking is if someone would be willing to do a comparison with this list and see if the List produced here on EJ is still better.

I only ask this cause i like the fact that here on EJ its a community working together to make the lists and there it just seems like 1 person sayin what is best.




~~ Side note are we really supposed to have that many Hit gems in our gear or is that an error and supposed to be haste? ~~

Thank you for supplying great info on everything and keep up the awesome work!

#49 BubbaWilkins

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 10:29 PM

Problem with the professor is that movement makes it less effective as you likely won't be able to Fire Nova since he will be out of range of the totem.

Still the glyph could end up being a viable option for that fight as the Fire Elemental will move with the professor allowing more consistency in the dps from our Fire Totem over that time period. Has anyone done any testing on the distance the Fire Elemental will move from it's totem? If not I can try to work out something later.


As far as I can tell, the elemental doesn't have a leash limiting it's movement. If it engages a target, it pretty much behaves like a pitbull. We haven't gotten to the professor yet, so I can't test it myself. Hope to do that Monday.

On the subject of BiS time considerations: Since Fester has a hard 5minute time limit, it seems that this should be the period to base current calculations on. It's about as optimum fight conditions as we have with minimal movement and known time restraints. Saurfang for us goes a little longer, but I believe this fight is supposed to have a target duration of 5 mins as well.

#50 Rouncer

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 11:21 PM

So this is my first time posting here, but i had something brought up to me that i would like someone to help with.

I've used EJ for all my BiS/info for my shaman, but recently i had a few people bringing up question to why i do. And they tried telling me that ensidia had the better BiS. Well after looking at their list and this list there are actually differences.
Now i've never used Rawr or enhsim just cause i dont understand exactly what im doing etc etc. But i at least read what you guys get from those mods.
So basically what im asking is if someone would be willing to do a comparison with this list and see if the List produced here on EJ is still better.

I only ask this cause i like the fact that here on EJ its a community working together to make the lists and there it just seems like 1 person sayin what is best.




~~ Side note are we really supposed to have that many Hit gems in our gear or is that an error and supposed to be haste? ~~

Thank you for supplying great info on everything and keep up the awesome work!



It's a bit hard to compare the two lists as theirs is off an Orc running JC/Engi, so they are getting the 5 expertise as well as hyperaccelerators and the gem advantages of being a JC. Rava's is a Tauren running LW/Enchanting, so no racial bonus and the profession bonus is limited to just additional AP.

Also their Rawr config is using the Fire Elemental and Fire Nova glyphs which are really subpar for a single target encounter with a duration set up as our current BiS list demands. So I swapped the glyphs to WF and Feral Spirits to help their list out.

Ensidia BiS list - 11929.47
Rava's BiS list - 12223.10

Most of the difference is probably due to Ensidia's list being over the white crit cap by a significant amount when Elemental Devastation is active.


(edit - my dps value for Rava's list is a bit lower then the OP because I run with the sim set to 250-350 latency not the 230-260 specified in the OP. I closed down Rawr/EnhSim before I noticed and don't want to spend the time to reset the config for more runs just to deal with that small variation. Both lists were run with that latency though so the comparison is valid)

#51 Cochice

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 07:09 AM

Has anyone done any testing on the distance the Fire Elemental will move from it's totem? If not I can try to work out something later.


Just from memory from our last two kills, FE would leash back to it's totem when it's distance was roughly 3/4 of the distance of the room front to back, and about half the distance side to side. This is absolutely a rough estimation, and only to be used as a starting point.

Re: the person saying that the Ele shaman's FE was staying on target longer:

Both our kills have had an Ele, Resto and Me (enh), and all three of us dropped our FE at roughly the same spot, and most of the time they leashed at similar times. I will say that in general the fight is just frustratingly bad for us if only because of constant globals on totem redrop (and single cast SoE/WF when FE is up).

#52 julored

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 10:43 AM

Just from memory from our last two kills, FE would leash back to it's totem when it's distance was roughly 3/4 of the distance of the room front to back, and about half the distance side to side. This is absolutely a rough estimation, and only to be used as a starting point.

Re: the person saying that the Ele shaman's FE was staying on target longer:

Both our kills have had an Ele, Resto and Me (enh), and all three of us dropped our FE at roughly the same spot, and most of the time they leashed at similar times. I will say that in general the fight is just frustratingly bad for us if only because of constant globals on totem redrop (and single cast SoE/WF when FE is up).


Just did some rough testing dueling in the sewers and every time I got the fire elemental around 45 yards away from the totem, it leashed. I measured the distance using the range of Hex and Shocks. The target was just past the combined range of hex and wind shear from the totem when the elemental leashed.

Interestingly, when the target was just outside of the leash range, the elemental would pursue the target, cast fire nova as soon as it could (at max range from its target), complete the cast, attempt to get into melee range, then leash. This suggests that if the elemental is up and the boss is being moved away from it, fire nova will often miss. This is due to fire nova's cast time and the fact that the elemental will cast it as soon as its target is at max range, regardless of the target's movement. I'm not sure, but to me it seems like a lot of the upside of the fire elemental is actually offset on putricide considering the lost fire novas of both the shaman and the fire elemental and the 45 yard range from the totem.

In regards to lost globals, you might make a totem set that includes your normal buff totems (SoE/WF/HST) and either omits the fire totem completely or actually includes fire elemental totem. Using either set during your FE's uptime will refresh earth, air, and water totems in one global without overwriting or removing your elemental.

#53 Nock_FS

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 03:18 PM

Also, just to make things a little easier for other JCers figuring out which JCer gems to use or anyone fiddling with the gems in this list. The gems in this current BiS are:

1 meta: Relentless Earthsiege x1
6 red: Precise Cardinal Ruby x6
2 orange: Accurate Amethyst x 2
11 yellow: Rigid King's Amber x6 Quick King's Amber x5
1 prismatic: Nightmare Tear x1
0 blue

Filling these sockets:
1 meta, 7 red, 4 blue, 8 yellow, +1 extra belt socket

For the following stats (not counting socket bonus):
21 agility 3% crit dmg
10 all stats
140 expertise rating
140 hit rating
100 haste rating

edit: updated March 5th

#54 Filppula

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 04:55 PM

Seeing the total list of gems posted, I was wondering why we are still using the Chaotic Skyflare Diamond in the BiS list. I moved to the Relentless Earthsiege Diamond a while ago. It frees up the a gem slot to use another gem by removing the Enchanted Tear. Is this something just left over from the 3.2 BiS list?

Edit: Removed Conjecture.

#55 Rouncer

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 05:26 PM

Seeing the total list of gems posted, I was wondering why we are still using the Chaotic Skyflare Diamond in the BiS list. I moved to the Relentless Earthsiege Diamond a while ago. It frees up the a gem slot to use a Quick King's Amber by removing the Enchanted Tear and it gives AP + a small % of Crit instead of straight Crit (which we know is a problem with all of the Crit Cap Analysis). Is this something just left over from the 3.2 BiS list?


The concept of this thread is for you to find upgrades and then report those upgrades and then the list gets updated. Posting conjecture accomplishes nothing.

As for relentless versus chaotic keep in mind that chaotic adds spell crit, which we are nowhere near capping, while agility is 1 AP + melee crit, where we are capped for white attacks.

Swapping the CSD for the RED and replacing the Enchanted Tear in the shoulders with a Quick King's Amber (20 Haste) shows as a 24 dps loss for me. If you have any ideas for swaps please follow the rules and sim out your changes and then post if they end up being a dps increase so we all can benefit.

Since I was playing I did try some other gems for that shoulder slot using the RED instead of the CSD. Quick is a dps loss but Bright (40AP) was a gain. Pristine (20AP/10Hit) was even more of a gain and Rigid (20 hit) surpassed that. So it does look like Rava should change out the meta to a RED and the shoulder should be socketed with a Rigid King's Amber.

#56 Mengus

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 05:34 PM

As far as I can tell, the elemental doesn't have a leash limiting it's movement. If it engages a target, it pretty much behaves like a pitbull. We haven't gotten to the professor yet, so I can't test it myself. Hope to do that Monday.


It definitely leashes on PP, but the additional fact is that you can't use Fire Nova on that fight if you drop the elemental, especially for P3 but also to a degree for P1, P2 as well, due to the amount of movement required. It might be worth using in the tail end of P3 as you're burning him down when slime is all over the room and you're more limited to a small area of movement.

#57 Gbits

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 09:41 PM

Just from memory from our last two kills, FE would leash back to it's totem when it's distance was roughly 3/4 of the distance of the room front to back, and about half the distance side to side.


I can confirm those results. I've been compensating by dropping FE in the middle of the room as I run madly from side to side (we're tanking under the, uh, tanks, so there's a lot of run time). Using that method I'm seeing pretty much 100% uptime, although obviously sacrificing the DPS from FN - given the global spam in that fight, I'm not sure whether I wouldn't be seeing higher DPS using MT/FN.

#58 Carebare

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 07:45 AM

I'm not sure what Fire Elementals have to do with BiS gear, but this conversation doesn't seem to belong in this thread.
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#59 Mengus

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 06:59 PM

Regarding the BiS methodology for the static sim variables, as we come near the end of Icecrown and have a better handle on multiple mob fights, would it be worth incorporating the multiple mob feature of enh sim or should the focus remain on single target boss fights only? Multi mob factors were not really discussed in the FAQ, and since it is a relatively new feature of EnhSim it might be worth using, especially to determine the best viable raid DPS for boss fights, as some will include multiple mobs (Blood Princes for example)

I.e. If we determine that of all the ICC fights, approximately 15% of them incorporate multiple mobs, using that same percentage in the enh sim multi mob function.

#60 Nevets_69

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 07:59 PM

Blood Princes is still a single target fight. Only one prince has health at any given time, the other 2 have only one hit point.

Blood Queen is also a single target fight.


So far, the only fight with any mentionable AoE component is Deathwhisper, and even that is limited.

Valithria Dreamwalker may have some useful opportunities for AoE, and killing ice blocks on Sindragosa will definitely make good use of everyone's Area Effect damage. Though I suspect that much like Putricide, the only real DPS test will be in the final phase, when you have to burn her quickly to avoid the soft engrage, and so only our single target DPS will really matter.
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