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[WotLK] 4.0 Warrior FAQ


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#21 landsoul

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 01:12 AM

Some nitpicks:

For Arms, Bladestorm should not be used on cooldown, rather on cooldown between TFB usage.

For Fury, Don't use Recklessness on cooldown. Only use recklessness after the 2nd BT in your particular period. In most cases recklessness as a GCD is only worth roughly 1 1/2 of an ability. (assuming 50% crit). If you use it and delay your BT-WW rotation it won't gain you much at all.

Haste > hit as fury. Haste will have no less than 0.7 SEP with average gear, while Hit is more around 0.4 or 0.5. Hit=Haste only over crit cap.

You should never ever in any gear level have to spec improved berserker rage. If you are hit/exp capped you should be able to use all BT-WW-Slam. Zerker rage takes up too much GCD space and risks loss of DPS with delayed rotations and slam loss. If you don't have the rage, you shouldn't have been heroic striking and you should have saved your bloodrage for this time.

For fury, during execute phase use every GCD for damage and use your strongest DPS ability BT>WW>Exe/Slam. Slam>Exe after 245 gear level/good weapon. Heroic strike if only you have 80+rage or really good gear.

Shattering Throw? DPS loss. Only 3% DPS increase or less (armpen capped). Use only after 2nd BT in rotation when you don't have a proc stack and also during heroism/lust/burn + Only if you have several physical dps classes in raid.
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#22 Krc

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 03:20 AM

I wouldn't say only stamina but include armor since it is part of the same gearing of EH and does not rely on randomness. I would put something along the lines of adjust your stamina to armor ratio depending on how high the percentage of burst that kills you is magic through the rough ratios done by TheckHD on Maintankadin Maintankadin • View topic - "Total" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH.
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#23 JamesVZ

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 05:26 AM

I would put something along the lines of adjust your stamina to armor ratio depending on how high the percentage of burst that kills you is magic through the rough ratios done by TheckHD on Maintankadin


Thus far we've seen very few if any raid encounters in Wrath of the Lich King where magic damage played a significant role in a tank's death outside of abilities that you needed cooldowns to survive anyway. Magic damage can't burst, and thus it's typically either inconsequential or counterable by other means during progression.

Beyond that, there's not a whole lot of wiggle room for stamina gain. You have your trinket slots, and a few pieces of gear with more sockets than others, and that's about it. We're talking about maybe a 4-5k swing in HP as a Warrior, which is pretty minor in the face of mostly non-reducible magic damage. On the flip side, the encounters we've seen thus far in ICC put serious pressure on the tanks solely through melee damage, all of which is reducible by armor.

The point here is that you should gear for armor first, ignoring things like the badge stamina trinket in favor of a set that will serve you better throughout the zone, which is typically going to be an armor set. The 'magic damage burst' theory is great on paper, and it's a fine bit of math I'll grant you that, but the reality of the situation rarely plays out to take advantage of it. For the upcoming tank, things like the badge armor trinket will go miles towards putting them at an appropriate spot to tank things like Gormok's Impale or Marrowgar's Saber Lash, much more so than a secondary raw stamina trinket where they don't even have access to the top tier ones for quite a bit.

EDIT: Also should mention somewhere that chugging Indestructible Potions like candy is probably a good thing to do as a tank. If you drink a potion right before combat starts, you can drink another in combat and get 4 minutes of uptime on it. This is generally enough to cover most danger areas of boss encounters.
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#24 Jumai

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 11:42 AM

Thus far we've seen very few if any raid encounters in Wrath of the Lich King where magic damage played a significant role in a tank's death outside of abilities that you needed cooldowns to survive anyway. Magic damage can't burst, and thus it's typically either inconsequential or counterable by other means during progression.


I'm prioritizing armour too but this seems extreme. Magic damage can and does cause damage bursts, usually by lining up with other damage. Plenty of recent encounters have multiple sources of non-physical damage that can line up with each other and/or a melee hit to cause trouble.

toxin/bile, spew, slime pool
fel lightning, fel inferno, fel streak
freezing slash, leeching swarm
frostbolt volley, vengeful blast (ghosts), death and decay, mind-controlled magic dps attacks
gastric bloat, gaseous blight, spore damage

..not being terribly familiar with rotface or professor, I don't want to put my foot in my mouth but I doubt they wouldn't make the list. By the looks of it the two new fights in the crimson hall will be throwing around some important non-physical effects too.

#25 landsoul

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 11:43 AM

Should say agi = 2 ap = haste for Fury, since they are all very close and sometimes one over the other.
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#26 landsoul

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 11:47 AM

Only an overpower from a dodge should be put before MS. No where I ever said Overpower>MS. MS is actually a pretty high priority because it's cooldown can be clipped whereas other abilities can be saved and used later.
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#27 KhorakSenjin

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 02:29 PM

I am a bit shocked to see the preferred fury spec recommend Unbridled Wrath (chance to generate more rage --- you shouldn't be raged starved in a raid) and Heroic Fury (solidly a PVP talent) over Booming Voice and Commanding Presence - which boost our only unique raid buff (commanding shout).

Has the value of UW somehow been increased, and our shouts decreased?

#28 Fellwraith

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 02:37 PM

Really for progression content glyph of shield wall is nonoptional.

While this was mostly true in Ulduar, it's really not true anymore. The glyph is totally optional, it just depends on the fight. There's lots of fights where you'll probably only get one use out of shieldwall during the stressful time for healers, glyphing it doesn't buy you a second use of the ability and is actually sub-optimal (e.g. Festergut, Steelbreaker, Putricide P3 burn, Anub'arak during leeching swarm, etc.)

All the standard prot glyphs are useful for different fights. I think the FAQ is absolutely right that your glyph choices are subjective. The reality is that you're probably going to swap them quite a bit during the course of an instance clear if you're really trying to min/max.

#29 Shha

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 02:41 PM

Unbridled wrath is my spec i use on cleave heavy fights - since it was proven that it procs off every hit. It also can be perceived as -2 rage off heroic strike (both mh/oh hit giving 1 rage), which sort of smoothes out the rage generation.

With all that said - UW is a shitty talent. You take if someone else covers commanding, and thats about it.

As for heroic fury - I found its unnecessary in TOC, and sometimes in ulduar, its so far pretty amazing talent in ICC - for pve of course.

I would recommend to use a simple macro of :

/castsequence reset=1 Intercept, Heroic Fury,Heroic Fury

instead of your intercept

The a bit strange syntax is actually pretty reasonable.

1 tap = intercept
double tap = intercept + instant refresh

the 2nd heroic fury in the rotation is simply to "block" it, so multiple taps when you spam intercept while getting into range, wont cause you to intercept/refresh/intercept-mid-intercept - which is otherwhise possible.

#30 MatsT

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 03:20 PM

The arms rotation is somewhat weird:
Overpower (If <1.5 seconds before a TfB proc), Rend (Do Not Clip) > Overpower > Mortal Strike > Execute > Slam
If there is less than 1.5 seconds left before next TfB proc, rend must be up already, Therefore the rotation can be simplified to:
Rend (Do Not Clip) > Overpower > Mortal Strike > Execute > Slam
The extra overpower would only be needed in case the rotation turns out to be something like:
Rend (Do Not Clip) > Overpower (If <1.5 seconds before a TfB proc) > Mortal Strike > Overpower > Execute > Slam

#31 JamesVZ

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 04:26 PM

toxin/bile, spew, slime pool
fel lightning, fel inferno, fel streak
freezing slash, leeching swarm
frostbolt volley, vengeful blast (ghosts), death and decay, mind-controlled magic dps attacks
gastric bloat, gaseous blight, spore damage


Northrend Beasts the vast majority of your damage taken is going to be melee, whether from Gormok's Impale or an enraged Dreadscale, or Icehowl. Going over my log roughly 3% of my damage taken was from Burning Bile, and it ticked for a little less than a couple thousand a tick. Molten Spew came in at less than 2% of my damage taken, 8 ticks for 3k each. The only magic ability with any amount of burst on it was Burning Bite, which is the application of the fire debuff, it hit for roughly 15k which is a drop in the bucket comparatively.

Fel Lightning didn't hit me once in Jaraxxus, and Fel Inferno and Fel Streak combined did roughly 7% of the total damage done to me, the highest tick of either being a mere 4k hp. The largest source of magic damage done to me on this latest log was actually Fel Fireball, which can be interrupted if you don't really care about your rage/threat generation here. Jaraxxus is not a fight I would say that pressures the tank in any sense of the word.

It's interesting you bring up Anub tanking here, because if there's one stat you really want to stack on it, it's armor. The next best would probably be nature resistance. Freezing Slash is significant because it removes your chance to dodge and parry, not because it does a significant amount of damage in and of itself. Stacking hitpoints also only causes Leeching Swarm to do that much more damage and heal that much more.

Frostbolt can and should be interrupted on Lady Deathwhisper, though if it's not I don't think an extra 4k hp is going to play a significant difference in keeping you alive longer when they hit for 30k a pop. Frostbolt Volley hits for 5k, and was just 2.4% of my total damage taken. Vengeful Blast actually came in at a mere 0.7% damage done to me, with 1 hit for 3k damage. Mind Controlled raid members should be CC'd for many other reasons than the amount of magic damage they can do to the tank. In any case, I wouldn't call Deathwhisper a shining example of a tank pressuring fight either.

Festergut is also the prime example of when you want to stack armor over everything else, 81% of my damage taken was via melee with the average hit being 16k. During his third inhale phase, though, he hits for significantly more melee damage and that's really the only danger area of the fight. Pungent Blight is probably going to be your biggest source of magic damage if you don't get lucky with a spore, and it will hit for a good chunk of damage and bring you really low if you aren't prepared for it. Though this only happens at most twice a fight and you can cooldown it both times.

To save you the trouble of wondering about the next two bosses, 92.4% of my damage taken on Rotface was melee, and 92.7% of my damage taken on Putricide was melee, which is pure phase 3 damage where pressure on the tank is the highest. Neither of them are comparable to Festergut as far as that's concerned, though.

Maybe saying that magic damage can't burst was a bit disingenuous, but so is telling people to eyeball the amount of damage they're taking in any given fight to swap in stamina pieces over armor pieces. The case 99% of the time is that your armor gear is going to make you a much, much more durable tank, and you should prioritize it over pretty much every other stat pretty much all of the time. Encounters where you don't want to prioritize armor are typically encounters that do not pressure the tank at all, and you should probably be in threat gear. The gunship battle might be an exception here, with avoidance probably coming out ahead in the long run -- but even there you're probably going to want to put armor as your second best stat.
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#32 Fellwraith

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 04:41 PM

Yea, I'm with jamesvz, I'd edit the section that reads:

Q: I keep dying. What I am doing wrong?
A: You may be undergeared, using a wrong strategy, standing in the fire, failing to use/time your survival cooldowns or have too few/bad healers. Make sure it isn't one of the first four.



You should add something about indestructible potions, debuffs (demoralizing shout is a really big deal against anything that gets a damage multiplier), buffs (do you have inspiration, devotion aura, etc.), and proper gearing strategies. There isn't a one-size fits all tank suit, but armor is a pretty big deal for just about any physical damage stress. If you're getting hit for 40k by Festergut or 30k by Putricide, then it's not the healers' fault you're dying. It probably has something to do with gearing too much for threat/avoidance/stamina and not enough for pure physical mitigation.

#33 Jumai

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 06:51 PM

As I said, I am also prioritizing armour most highly of any stat right now. I love indestructible pots too. However I do swap out Glyph of Indominability for deathwhisper because I don't die from her melee attack. Mostly I took issue with the claim that magic damage is never burst and never matters. Perhaps unfortunately, the discussion is vastly simplified by the fact that you're going to have capped resistancees to any relevant school strictly from raid buffs.

RE: deathwhisper. Yes, all of those effects except frostbolt volley can and will be worked around most of the time. I still find when I die on her it's because of bad luck or bad execution involving one or more of these. The volley can hit for quite a bit more than 4k, a ghost can hit for 20k, and both will be quite a bit meaner on hard mode. The only one of these that's always your fault if it happens is the frostbolt, which is both why I didn't include it and why it's apparently an almost guaranteed 1-shot in heroic.

This is just bickering but for warrior tanks on jump duty for gunship, your best stat for reducing incoming damage is probably shield block value.


@ Fellwraith:
Agree to a point. The reason I say shield wall glyph is nonoptional is that 1) the fights where it's good, it's clearly the best choice and 2) re-glyphing mid instance doesn't let you move points out of improved disciplines. If they took the 60%->40% off improved disciplines then that would make us a lot more flexible in that regard, but as it stands you have to actually hearth out and respec to get rid of the downside of the glyph. Additionally, considering glyph of shield wall is most valuable when you're least familiar with an encounter and the target audience of the FAQ is "I'm new halp," it's probably reasonable to recommend it a bit more highly than we might otherwise.

It's funny you should mention festergut as an example of somewhere that it's bad though since I really like it on that fight. Might be you guys are just killing him faster.

#34 JamesVZ

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 06:58 PM

Perhaps unfortunately, the discussion is vastly simplified by the fact that you're going to have capped resistancees to any relevant school strictly from raid buffs.


Sounds like someone needs to read up on resistance mechanics again. http://elitistjerks....echanics_wotlk/

Also, not sure where you get SBV is the best value to stack for Gunship? The best way of reducing damage in that fight is avoiding it entirely so that his damage buff doesn't stack up, no?
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#35 Jumai

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 07:20 PM

Thanks for that link. I've actually been trying to find a better rundown of exactly that, I will read it thoroughly.

About Muradin. I always jump-tank the gunship. I never, ever see Muradin fail to gain a stack of the buff because his attack(s) were avoided. In fact, the very first time we went there, I had a 9 second avoidance streak and then got smeared all over the floor, because healer saw me take hits at 0-4 stacks, then when damage resumed he was at 12. It's possible that it was buggy that day and I've misinterpreted what I've seen since then because of that experience, but I don't believe that's the case. Originally people thought avoidance would prevent mark of the fallen champion damage too but that isn't the case, so consistency backs me up here.

edit: googled around a bit and found this post on tankspot supporting my observations with a combat log. For me the really insteresting thing here is how the cleave appears to work, but that's for another thread.

#36 Snowy

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 07:22 PM

Also, not sure where you get SBV is the best value to stack for Gunship? The best way of reducing damage in that fight is avoiding it entirely so that his damage buff doesn't stack up, no?


Does avoiding his attacks prevent his buff from stacking? I thought perhaps it was just a time based thing, he gained it every X seconds while attacking someone regardless of whether the attacks hit or not.

#37 Durians

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 07:36 PM

The arms rotation is somewhat weird:
Overpower (If <1.5 seconds before a TfB proc), Rend (Do Not Clip) > Overpower > Mortal Strike > Execute > Slam
If there is less than 1.5 seconds left before next TfB proc, rend must be up already, Therefore the rotation can be simplified to:
Rend (Do Not Clip) > Overpower > Mortal Strike > Execute > Slam
The extra overpower would only be needed in case the rotation turns out to be something like:
Rend (Do Not Clip) > Overpower (If <1.5 seconds before a TfB proc) > Mortal Strike > Overpower > Execute > Slam


It's more like Overpower (less than 1.5 seconds on TfB) > Rend (Do Not Clip) > Overpower (from dodge or less than 4.5 seconds on TfB) > Mortal Strike > Sudden Death > Overpower (greater than 4.5 seconds left on tfb) > Slam

Then for execute range it changes slightly depending on gear. Use landsoul's spread sheet to determine if your MS > Execute. If Execute does more damage than MS then during execute range priorities change to:
Rend (Do Not Clip) > Overpower > Sudden Death/Execute

If MS does more damage than Execute then during execute range the priorities become:
Rend (Do Not Clip) > Overpower > Mortal Strike > Sudden Death/Execute

If you assume infinite rage, execute range is actually a rotation of abilities and it is no longer a priority list. There's no real way to simplify all that into one general priority list and 2 separate ones are needed for Execute range and non-execute range.

I think we're just not sure how far Darian wants to take this, but for beginners sake I believe that what is currently written is fine. It should, however, be noted that the most important thing about arms is using every GCD for a damage ability. It is rarely a dps increase to wait for something like MS to come off cooldown instead of using something like Slam to fill the GCD (not to mention hard to track).

edited to correct rotation for non-execute range

#38 JamesVZ

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 07:44 PM

Hmm, good call.

[19:59:15.617] Muradin Bronzebeard hits Jamesvz Parry
[19:59:16.418] Muradin Bronzebeard hits Jamesvz Miss
[19:59:17.146] Muradin Bronzebeard gains Battle Fury (15) from Muradin Bronzebeard
[19:59:17.189] Muradin Bronzebeard hits Jamesvz Miss
[19:59:18.054] Muradin Bronzebeard hits Jamesvz Miss
[19:59:18.827] Muradin Bronzebeard hits Jamesvz Miss
[19:59:19.551] Muradin Bronzebeard gains Battle Fury (16) from Muradin Bronzebeard
[19:59:19.603] Muradin Bronzebeard hits Jamesvz Miss

But it doesn't look like block value reduces the base amount of damage done like it does on anub's adds.

[19:59:23.929] Muradin Bronzebeard hits Jamesvz 15792 (A: 8053, B: 5220)
[19:59:24.151] Muradin Bronzebeard gains Battle Fury (18) from Muradin Bronzebeard
[19:59:24.721] Muradin Bronzebeard hits Jamesvz 16304 (A: 287)
[19:59:25.277] Muradin Bronzebeard hits Jamesvz 27631 (B: 5220)
[19:59:26.441] Muradin Bronzebeard hits Jamesvz Parry
[19:59:26.753] Muradin Bronzebeard hits Jamesvz Dodge
[19:59:26.969] Muradin Bronzebeard gains Battle Fury (19) from Muradin Bronzebeard
[19:59:27.925] Muradin Bronzebeard hits Jamesvz Miss
[19:59:28.160] Muradin Bronzebeard hits Jamesvz 29450
[19:59:29.763] Muradin Bronzebeard hits Jamesvz 12395
[19:59:29.763] Muradin Bronzebeard hits Jamesvz 30066
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#39 Fellwraith

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 07:56 PM

@ Fellwraith:
Agree to a point. The reason I say shield wall glyph is nonoptional is that 1) the fights where it's good, it's clearly the best choice and 2) re-glyphing mid instance doesn't let you move points out of improved disciplines. If they took the 60%->40% off improved disciplines then that would make us a lot more flexible in that regard, but as it stands you have to actually hearth out and respec to get rid of the downside of the glyph. Additionally, considering glyph of shield wall is most valuable when you're least familiar with an encounter and the target audience of the FAQ is "I'm new halp," it's probably reasonable to recommend it a bit more highly than we might otherwise.

It's funny you should mention festergut as an example of somewhere that it's bad though since I really like it on that fight. Might be you guys are just killing him faster.

The glyph is what reduces the shieldwall percentage to 40%, not the imp disciplines talent. If you're looking for a generic spec where all you have to change from boss to boss are glyphs and gear, there's no reason not to take the talent.

On Festergut, if you're doing the standard "taunt every 8-9 stacks of bloat" rotation for tanks, you will only need to tank one of the 3 stack inhaled blight phases, not both. Even if the fight lasts the full 5 minutes, you shouldn't need to use shieldwall twice (unless the other tank dies, in which case you're probably already in trouble from bloat stacks). Glyph of taunt is a pretty useful substitute for that whole wing.

#40 Jumai

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 09:17 PM

Fellwraith: Wow @ improved disciplines, ok that was an ignorant error. My apologies, I'm not sure how I became confused about this. I could have sworn they both reduced shield wall to 40%. I do use glyph of taunt through all of icc.

JamesVZ: Block doesn't happen before the multiplier on Muradin, but you're always going to have shield block up for the most dangerous 60% of each jump, and in the log you posted he attacked you 6 times in 4 seconds (did you have tclap up?). The block value adds up fast.




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