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[WotLK] 4.0 Warrior FAQ


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#41 JamesVZ

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 09:41 PM

Nah, it fell off literally the second before that and I was getting ready to jump. It's also normal mode so I'm not too concerned about it unless we're trying for On A Boat, where the damage can get pretty ridiculous. I'm not sure I'd even want to tank it normally in my block value set, either.
They got that 40 man...40 man, ooh, ooh, ooh. And all I wanna do is raid it.

#42 Krc

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 12:10 AM

Northrend Beasts the vast majority of your damage taken is going to be melee, whether from Gormok's Impale or an enraged Dreadscale, or Icehowl.


I agree with you JamesVZ on everything you have said but have found this statement to be slightly incorrect. You are not taking into account the bleed damage from Gormok which is unmitigable. It may seem inconsiquential but it turns it to affect the value of armor enough that a stamina trinket becomes a better choice.

Just looking through various logs of kills World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis you can see that on a decently geared warrior tank the Melee hits for 16k-18k and the Impale hits for around 20-21k. In a worse case scenario the two are only dealing 39k damage not nearly enough to kill a buffed tank, from what I have seen what kills an undergeared tank is the two along with an Impale bleed.

The bleed in the log does about 7k-11k damage, that paired after the 39k combo takes down the tank. The Bleed can do about 15%-25% of the damage combo that kills the tank. This situation is irrelevant towards gear pieces since you can't really trade off armor gear for stamina but this is very relevant for trinkets. In this kind of situation using TheckHD's formula the Glyph of Indom's EH value goes from around 160 stamina to 115-130 stamina making a rival trinket like say the Heart of Iron a more efficent choice.

#43 JamesVZ

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 12:18 AM

Well the question there is can you wear a stamina set such that you gain enough hitpoints to cover the potential 3 hit combo? If we're talking about swapping out one trinket, my guess is no, especially since you're giving up a nice chunk of armor in the process and thus the melee hit and impale application will both be slightly larger anyway. In any case, I've always used cooldowns for impale during my second tanking phase (impales 9-13, though nowadays usually just 9). For the rest of the fight armor is definitely the stat to stack as the only real danger you're going to be in is tanking an enraged Dreadscale or Icehowl.
They got that 40 man...40 man, ooh, ooh, ooh. And all I wanna do is raid it.

#44 Athena

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 11:34 PM

Welcome to the Warrior FAQ.

Protection

Q: What happened to Devastate spam?
A: It's rage efficient but bad for threat. Only use it as filler or to stack and maintain Sunders.


I'm still fairly new to tanking, but I can not see how it is bad for threat. Much better than sunder for instance, and I constantly seem to be getting 4-5k threat per hit for it. Up to 11k according to Omen on a crit. I don't understand, but if you can tell me why it would be bad for threat, I'd love to know and switch up my play-style accordingly. I use Shield Bash if it is up, and Revenge as well, since with my glyph it gives me a free HS immediately after use. But during any of that other time, especially on single target, I am using Devestate. I keep Thunderclap and Demo shout up when they near falling.

#45 Shha

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 11:44 PM

Glyphed devastate is one of most efficient threat moves in our arsenal. Its probably close to outthreating Shield Slam and definitely is above revenge even now in threat. Devastate glyph is also a powerful tool in many encounters to boost raid dps (anub adds, jaraxxus portals, Deathwhisper adds, putridice slimes etc). In some cases running with devastate+sunder glyph is also beneficial (valkyrs, anub adds, deathwhisper) - In case someone isnt sure - sunder glyph + devastate glyph makes devastate apply 2 sunders to main target, and 1 to secondary.

#46 Athena

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 11:47 PM

I have both of those glyphs, and I use the Shockwave one also since I'm not up to raid tanking yet. (Only 31.5k completely unbuffed) Just was curious since I noticed how much threat it was, seemed counter to what I know seeing what he said. I know this place is pretty much the definitive place for numbers, so if I don't understand and it's my own fault, I'd always be curious to find out why.

#47 Krc

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 12:58 AM

3.2 Threat Values (Devastate) - TankSpot Here is the TankSpot thread that shows how much Glyph of Devastate increases your threat and how it makes Devastate your number 2 threat move behind Shield Slam. Satrina also put the Devastate value in his updated threat value thread WoW 3.0 Threat Values (Warrior) - TankSpot making it pretty set in stone.

#48 joesh

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 01:55 AM

I interpreted the Fury Warrior spreadsheet as saying I should use

BT - WW (Slam) - BT - (Slam) - Slam ... repeat, while using HS if i have the rage

but this FAQ says using any noninstant slam is a no-no?

What should my true rotation be?

#49 radium

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 01:50 PM

First off I'd like to say a big thank you for making this faq. the number of headaches i've invoked trying to find a specific peice of information in the discussion threads is shocking. :P

I've been raiding as arms for most of ICC, but my guild leader is asking me to try out fury because it seems to be fairing better on dps at the moment.

But reading the faq I see that it states I should only get 8% hit with precision. I've been under the impression for some time that TG specials needed 14%. Could someone clear this up for me?

Another thing I'm unsure about is the Str / ArP comparison. I see lots of different opinions on the matter. Rawr seems to rate str slightly higher than arp, as does the faq here and maxdps.com suggests that str is massively better than arp. But the first response for fury mentions the ArP hardcap being the priority, and a lot of the top dps out there seem to push the 80% arp mark.

Any help will be greatly appreciated. And thanks again for setting up this faq. :)

#50 Mia

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:59 PM

But reading the faq I see that it states I should only get 8% hit with precision. I've been under the impression for some time that TG specials needed 14%. Could someone clear this up for me?

Another thing I'm unsure about is the Str / ArP comparison. I see lots of different opinions on the matter. Rawr seems to rate str slightly higher than arp, as does the faq here and maxdps.com suggests that str is massively better than arp. But the first response for fury mentions the ArP hardcap being the priority, and a lot of the top dps out there seem to push the 80% arp mark.


Trust the FAQ. It's more correct than any "impression" out there. The relationship between Arp and Str is not static. It changes with your gear. At some gear levels/combinations (especially lower gear levels), Str>Arp. Sometimes Rawr and Landsoul give different answer on when Arp begins to get better than Str. You have to decide which to trust more.

#51 Kaistlin

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 10:30 PM

First off I'd like to say a big thank you for making this faq. the number of headaches i've invoked trying to find a specific peice of information in the discussion threads is shocking. :P

I've been raiding as arms for most of ICC, but my guild leader is asking me to try out fury because it seems to be fairing better on dps at the moment.

But reading the faq I see that it states I should only get 8% hit with precision. I've been under the impression for some time that TG specials needed 14%. Could someone clear this up for me?

Another thing I'm unsure about is the Str / ArP comparison. I see lots of different opinions on the matter. Rawr seems to rate str slightly higher than arp, as does the faq here and maxdps.com suggests that str is massively better than arp. But the first response for fury mentions the ArP hardcap being the priority, and a lot of the top dps out there seem to push the 80% arp mark.

Any help will be greatly appreciated. And thanks again for setting up this faq. :)



Oh god, don't ever look at maxdps.com. Just don't.

TG requiring 14% is almost a year old. That was back when it reduced the chance to hit by 5%. That's no longer the case. You now only need 8% including precision to never miss.

Str vs Arp: People like you asking this question is why Blizzard is doing away with the stat. Go download Landsoul's spreadsheet, and you can play around to see if gemming full armor pen is the way or not. I can tell you right now that if you don't have quite a bit of TOC25 and ICC gear, and don't have any of the armor pen proc trinkets, you're not going to want to gem for armor pen. If you do have one of those trinkets, the goal is to gem up to the point where when the trinket is procced, you'll be hard capped. I just recently was able to make the switch to 100% static armor penetration.

#52 Kemmi

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 07:53 AM

Alright, I'm new to this whole Warrior Tanking scene, so please, no hate. :)

Now, I know my gear won't be as good as ToC/ICC Gear from the start, I'm soon to hit 80. I have the rotations (Not quite) down with flawless aggro. Now, should I put mitigation gems into my gear until I get 232+ then stack Stamina? I see almost every single Protection Warrior doing so, but I ask why. Why are tanks just stacking Stamina. Wouldn't it be better to put some mitigation up such as +10 Def. +15 Stam. - +10 dodge +15 Stam. - +10 Parry +15 Stam.?

I know Parry is useless. I also understand that you get shield rating with Strength. How do I gem properly?

#53 MatsT

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 09:48 PM

You should gem stamina in every slot, it's simply the best tanking stat by far. In any given fight stamina will improve your chances of survival the most. The only reason I would ever gem something else is if you had to fill metagem requirements or if you had a socket bonus with at least 12 stamina. If you are using rare gems I suppose it would make sense to get socket bonuses with 9 stamina also.

#54 Kemmi

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 11:05 PM

I'd be using rare until iLvl 232+ (Unless it's a weapon, those are rare drops). Thanks though, figured I'd ask because I was a MT in Naxx+Ulduar with my DK which I mainly used +30 Stam. and +10 Def. +15 Stam. in every socket I could. That will help a bit when gemming. I do have a question for shoulder enchants. I mean, picture me Def. capped (Will be higher with ToC & ICC Gear), would I choose +10 Dodge +15 Def. for my shoulders or something like +(Someodd) Stam +15 Resil.?

I see many Main Tanks in High-end raiding guilds doing either or, which is better? 200-300 More Health or more Dodge+Parry?

#55 Fellwraith

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 12:30 AM

I'd be using rare until iLvl 232+ (Unless it's a weapon, those are rare drops). Thanks though, figured I'd ask because I was a MT in Naxx+Ulduar with my DK which I mainly used +30 Stam. and +10 Def. +15 Stam. in every socket I could. That will help a bit when gemming. I do have a question for shoulder enchants. I mean, picture me Def. capped (Will be higher with ToC & ICC Gear), would I choose +10 Dodge +15 Def. for my shoulders or something like +(Someodd) Stam +15 Resil.?

I see many Main Tanks in High-end raiding guilds doing either or, which is better? 200-300 More Health or more Dodge+Parry?

There isn't a one-size-fits-all answer.

I'll start by saying that if you're wearing the ilvl 264 crafted legplates and tier 10 chest as a warrior you're going to be hurting for defense rating eventually, so gemming a yellow socket with def/stam and netting 6-9 stamina from a socket bonus is usually worth it.

For the red sockets, it's really a matter of whether or not you think 0.15-0.18% avoidance is worth losing 6-9 net stamina (counting the socket bonus). For some fights that's a good bargain, in other fights it is not. I usually gem toward a piece's existing strengths or towards whatever my overall set requires (keeping in mind what the opportunity costs are).

#56 MatsT

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 02:20 PM

There isn't a one-size-fits-all answer.

I'll start by saying that if you're wearing the ilvl 264 crafted legplates and tier 10 chest as a warrior you're going to be hurting for defense rating eventually, so gemming a yellow socket with def/stam and netting 6-9 stamina from a socket bonus is usually worth it.

For the red sockets, it's really a matter of whether or not you think 0.15-0.18% avoidance is worth losing 6-9 net stamina (counting the socket bonus). For some fights that's a good bargain, in other fights it is not. I usually gem toward a piece's existing strengths or towards whatever my overall set requires (keeping in mind what the opportunity costs are).


There is actually a one-size-fits-all answer to the shoulder enchant question. As long as we exclude tanking Anub 25 Heroic adds, the stamina+resilience enchant is better for every fight in the game. Stamina is much better than dodge/defense even one for one, and you're actually getting more stamina. If you are having problems getting def capped, the resilience will actually help more than the defense.

About the sockets, could you give some examples in what fights the avoidance would be better?

#57 Zynth

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 07:15 PM

About the sockets, could you give some examples in what fights the avoidance would be better?


Anything that melees very hard and/or very quickly you'd want more avoidance for, or possibly a fight where healing per second spikes down due to some mechanic or another. Off the top of my head, Festergut comes to mind, and Saurfang while frenzied. In contrast, Sindragosa's damage is mostly frost with weak melee hits, so you'd want as much HP as possible to soak a big hit.

#58 Krc

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 09:09 PM

The thing about Festergut Zynth is that even with CDs he can put out so much damage with in a short time frame avoidance is simply too risky and relys on RNG too much to focus on.

#59 Fellwraith

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 11:32 PM

The thing about Festergut Zynth is that even with CDs he can put out so much damage with in a short time frame avoidance is simply too risky and relys on RNG too much to focus on.

You're talking about 6 stamina here. When we've already got a pretty huge amount of HP (55k+ raid buffed?), that's barely even noticeable in terms of a survivability increase vs a mob that can hit for ~25-28k every second. When you have items that have a red socket and a blue socket with a +9 stamina socket bonus, I don't know why you'd think you get more of a return from a pure blue gem in that slot. You're basically getting 10 dodge rating for 6 stamina. Unless you're so far against the DR curve for dodge that you're not getting much from that, I really don't see how that's a bad trade-off.

Mana doesn't matter for healers, but gobbling up extra GCDs and cooldowns because you're a meatshield who doesn't mitigate or avoid anything is pretty noticeable. Avoidance matters for adds/trash tanking, it matters for Festergut, it matters for anything that swings faster than 2 seconds before debuffs. There's only so many heals you can realistically get in a set timeframe and it's not RNG if you're talking about compound probability of every hit landing before a heal does. If you're counting on it to save you from an individual hit? Yes, that's RNG. If you're counting on it to save you vs a series of hits? That's not RNG. That's simple probability. Edit: After doing Saurfang heroic in 10 man, I'd say avoidance is pretty important there too.


Sindragosa is more about frost resistance than total HP (close to 60% of the damage is pure frost damage by my logs, and all of the healer stress comes from frost effects). You want a lot of stamina for it, but you get much better returns from resistance on that fight than you do from any other stat after a certain point.

#60 footloop

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 05:36 AM

It's probably worth mentioning that revenge is no longer a part of the priority queue, and should only be used when you don't have the rage for anything else. As such the 'cookie cutter' prot spec probably shouldn't include imp. revenge.




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