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Next Gen MMORPG Guild Features - What do you want?


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#21 Eej

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 06:22 PM

2. Guild Housing supports raiding.
- Allows creation of in-house merchants.
- Tradeskill support. Got a large batch of potions to whip up? Drop off all the mats at once, pay a small service charge, get them all created instantly. Logging in 30 minutes early to make all the potions for the raid sucks.
- Recipe library. How many of you have rare recipes that will never allow you to switch out of that profession? Store them in the guild library. Only players that previously knew them will be able to reacquire them. This prevents exploitation.

Should expand upon this further. A guild (or perhaps, a high level guild if you want to go with a leveling guild idea i.e. EQ2) should be able to invest its money into things like hiring a resource vendor, who sells limited amounts of resources (the amount and type depends on what you paid for), like say, Dreamfoil or Thorium, to anyone in guild. Also have a vendor who repairs items for a lot cheaper, or offer a repair discount faction-wide. Basically, being in a high level guild means you shouldn't have to worry about the stupid technicalities like spending 4 hours herbing for consumables and selling some of it to make sure you have enough money to keep up with repairs. Oh hell, don't forget things like an Alchemy Lab.

Basically, you should be able to invest lots of gold into your guild so that you don't have to deal with the mundane stuff like farming and focus more on raiding/PvP. Of course, I guess that screams EZ-mode to a lot of people, since many enjoy the concept of farming herbs/nodes/Hearthglen for hours on end to have an advantage over those who don't.

#22 Digo

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 06:23 PM

Can you explain the guild leveling system of EQ2?

#23 Eej

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 06:58 PM

I didn't play EQ2 very much, so I can't say I have that much experience with the guild leveling system. However, what I do know is that as the guild levels, members of the guild get benefits like clothing (yay), armour, furniture items that allow you to make items (think, your own personal anvil), discounts on mounts, discounts and access to larger player homes and access to certain raids. When you do City Writs (sort of like repeatable rep quests), which raise your faction with one of the 5 city factions (Fighter, Mage, Scout, Priest, Artisan), you also gain guild experience for your guild. However, the actual experience the guild gets is divided by the number of unique accounts in a guild (up to 24).

That's all I remember off the top of my head, I'm sure someone else here has a clearer description than me.

#24 Igniter

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 07:03 PM

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#25 Feorthas

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 07:29 PM

Things could be mixed up; progression fights could heavily depend on resistance gear or very specialized gear (e.g., progression_boss_2 uses ae "terror". Gear exists with the ability "Reduces the duration of terror by two seconds."). Then this resistance (and/or overspecialized) gear is available very cheaply from easy boss tokens. So, for example, you might be able to buy a tier2 piece with ten Razorgore tokens, but have the option to pick up multiple pieces which would increase your viability against Vael, Firemaw et al for one or two tokens.

I'd much rather have "Terror resist runes" than gear sets designed towards resisting an effect; however, the mechanic you have suggested (turn in one or two tokens, get some resist item) could still be used for consumables and/or trinkets as it could for set pieces.

Actually, now that I think about it, it would be great if 'resist' sets could be limited to trinkets, rings, & neck pieces with a passive & active effect. Something like the following would be great:

Rune of Terror Resist
Trinket
Unique
Equip: Increases your chance to resist Terror effects by 5%
Use: Makes you immune to Terror Effects (5m CD)

Cost: 2 tokens

---

Ring of Terror Resist
Ring
+10 Stamina
Equip: Increases your chance to resist Terror effects by 5%

Cost: 1 token

---

Pendant of Terror Resist
Necklace(?)
+15 Stamina
+10 Crit Rating
+10 Spell Crit Rating
+25 Attack Power
+15 Damage & Healing
Equip: Increases your chance to resist Terror effects by 10%

Cost: 3 tokens

---

Something like the Shadow/Fire/Frost engineering trinkets that we have now, just immunity instead of reflection and a more specialized resist. Also, having a raid equipped with a 5m CD trinket would mean that any one person would only use theirs twice in your average fight, meaning that there would be more strategy involved regarding when you'd use your trinket. Also, if you follow the patter that I've suggested above, an individual with both rings, the trinket, and necklace would already have a 25% chance to resist a terror effect even without activating the Use: on the trinket, giving them a fairly large advantage if the boss uses "Terror" often.
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#26 neg

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 08:04 PM

Well I have to agree that the pressure on players in the top is driving a lot away just becuase they cant grind the repair costs and tons of pots/elixers/flasks.

But instead of making the economie bigger I would suggest cutting down some on the consumables.

- When entering an instance all buffs are removed. No more getting tons of soulstones in oggrimar, getting 3 worldbuffs and then kill a boss.

- Elixers now all persist through death, max of 3 elixers/flasks per person.

- Up the cooldown on pots to 5 minutes.

- Remove protection potions.

- Pots, felwood consumables and the new consumables from herbalism on the same cooldown.

Todays raids are to focused on having 40 people there with to many worldbuffs , prepotting as much as possible and then pot all fight long to the max instead of just having the right people there with the right gear and giving it all you got.

#27 Copernic

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 08:26 PM

Back to the Guild stuff, from the Casual side:

1. Alt Management Features: We all play alts. Tons of them. To the point where the concept of a 'Main' is pretty foreign. It'd certainly be nice to be able to sort and associate characters with accounts, rather then the straight 'character with maybe a guild note' option we currently have.

2. Sorting and Identification: Keeping track of who-has-what and who-can-do-what is pretty dang difficult. Why not add internal character profiles for guild members? It'd be great to compare loot, to see what guildies are geared up enough to do X, and so on. Other possibilities: lists of enchants/recipe holders in a centralized spot (CRUSADER: Amanix, Rosterbabe, Smiley), the ability to post your spec, and so on.

3. Guild Rep: I really like this idea from the Casual perspective. Think of it as a bunch of little AQ Gate quests. The entire guild works together to get enough rep for a certain faction. That gives them access to, lets say, certain enchanting/recipe options -- but they only work if you remain in the guild. Suddenly, guild membership has real EQUITY -- it's an asset. As stands, if my longstanding guild was to disband and restart with a new name, who cares?

#28 Viator

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 09:11 PM

I didn't play EQ2 very much, so I can't say I have that much experience with the guild leveling system. However, what I do know is that as the guild levels, members of the guild get benefits like clothing (yay), armour, furniture items that allow you to make items (think, your own personal anvil), discounts on mounts, discounts and access to larger player homes and access to certain raids. When you do City Writs (sort of like repeatable rep quests), which raise your faction with one of the 5 city factions (Fighter, Mage, Scout, Priest, Artisan), you also gain guild experience for your guild. However, the actual experience the guild gets is divided by the number of unique accounts in a guild (up to 24).

That's all I remember off the top of my head, I'm sure someone else here has a clearer description than me.

That's basically it. The thing that was cool was that there were writs (which granted guild xp) at all levels so people always had an incentive to help guildmates, regardless of level difference. Since you had to mentor down to the persons level (20 quest, 55 help, 55 goes down to 20ish level temporarily) it wasn't a matter of blatant twinking, either.

It wasn't just that, though. A built in guild bank with access restrictions based on rank in guild, a guild recruitment window which you could customize and people could browse, a built in guild calendar and history of major events log... it was more or less what everyone wishing for better guild functionality in WoW says they want.
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#29 soffo

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 09:56 PM

There was a game I played way back in the day called Nexus TK. Overall the game was pretty terrible, but it had some great guild features that new MMOs should hope to reproduce.

Basicly, once a guild was created, they could spend a little money and purchase a guild hall. More or less, on the purchase, it was an empty shack. Anything the guild wanted to purchase was paid for via items in bulk; basicly the equivalent of WoW's flask of titans. A new wing for the hall would cost 80 of each of a bosses drops in a dungeon (no instances, bosses respawned very quickly) from a mid to high level dungeon, and a few thousand gold.

Eventually upgrading your guild hall and purchasing new items for it earned benefits, such as a pvp arena zone or teleports for the guild to use (members all got hearthstones for the guild at some point as well).

In the end was it a grind? sure, but at least it wasn't a grind for a single boss kill, and the guild halls were seen by the public.

Edit: also, for the sake of it, the items that were required change for every purchase the guild wanted to make, and were easily farmable by anyone above level 50 or so (99 levels total). Another very important thing to note was that everything was controllable. Rooms could be made public or private for guild members/visitors, and ground space was used for storage of items.

#30 Vhex

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 10:26 PM

I had like a 40 page essay going on about loot, player retention, why mana and levels are stupid and etc...etc...and then I realized none of it had to do with guild features. Damn you people for derailing. Damn you's all to hell.

Anyways...

One thing I'd like to see in addition to everything else is some sort of alliance feature so that you can expand certain functionalities to people in your alliance of guilds. Many servers in EQ had open raiding organizations and I've seen quite a few formed in WoW as well. It always makes me giggle when I see someone advertising that membership in their newbie guild includes grouping/raiding opportunities with their 'sister guilds.'

As for DKP tracking systems and the like, it'd have to be pretty customizable. All you have to do is browse around to any one of the "How does your guild handle loot?" threads on any sizeable message board and you'll find 100+ variations on how people have their DKP system set up.

Vhals on the right track though that DKP doesn't have to be the future. But that's an entirely different thread just on how future MMO's should handle loot.

#31 Dakous

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 11:02 PM

Leaving guilds with benefits
A lot of what I read in this thread is on the basis of an eternal guild. You invest in it, you can never leave it. While you can make hay all you want about what should ideally happen, let me propose what I think is a bulletproof scenario - your single guildmaster dies in a car crash, without having shared his l/p. While you can coast for awhile if the officers have sufficent permissions, everyone in guild and all their time investments hang even more precariously on the officers. While I know account sharing/selling/inheritance is a fairly common practice, since it's explicitly persona non gratia by Blizzard, they design a brick wall of CSR issues with such functionality.

In the alternative, friends with benefits
If such a thing were implemented, I think the guild infrastructure should be the sum of its parts. That is, let's say "Flask of the Titans" is labeled as a guild pattern, and gulid alchemist Joey gets it. As long as Joey is in guild, anyone can just dump the mats in the guild lab, and 30 minutes later, there's a Flask of the Titans. When Joey goes, so too does that functionality. If, stepping back in the example, someone in guild needs to purchase "Alchemy Lab" so that Flasks can be done in town, whoever actually spends the 10,000g "has" the lab. When they go, so too does it. So that risk management becomes a guild/player issue, instead of a CSR issue.

Removing the necessity of 100% attendance on That Dude
I think what would be amazing in the WoW paradigm would be Guildbound items (which would be guild transferrable through players switching tags, the point isn't really to lock them down, so much as to have a trust mechanic). This is, of course, ignoring the blue post that suggests resist fights and fear fights are going the way of the dodo. Once you've made your Bramblewood set, your guild will always have one rogue with the right NR, for example. The item can automagically be yoinked back to guildbank at any point (ie., when rogue-last-night isn't on tonight, and we need another NR rogue...)

This would exclusively be towards "guild sink" items, not raid reward items, and could be a consequence of constructing the item personally ("Hey, pal, would you make me the BoE bramble set~") versus guildically ("Mmm, depositing them thar Bramble bits...")

Zone buffs for killing zone stuffs
Speaking of resists, I suggested this, and will again and again. I think raid zones should give a buff per piece of gear you have that's raid set from zone or higher, increasing your resists by a fixed amount. As an example, wearing 5/5 of the AQ40 set, when I zone into MC, I magically get a +200 FR buff (that disappears on zone out) because presumably, I'm too awesome for MC anyway and have already completed the challenge there. This implies a mono-track raid system like we have now, but it's not un-adaptable to multitrack raid systems. Going back to my example, zoning in with 5/5 of the AQ40 to AQ40 will net me +150 NR. Presumably, I had to get resist gear to get the armor in the first place, so this is just "merging" the items without fiddling with the item budget.

Edit:
DKP...
I would like a mixed token system - think AQ40's armor system and Atiesh's splinter system (although, obviously, scaled down). It would be incredibly easy to design an interface which reflected how many of what where a player had received in the guild tab, with summaries, and moving from the complete lotto to "Well, he's gotten 5 weapon tokens, now it's the next guy's turn..." means DKP's luck management is out the window. The AQ40 system would mean you don't farm the bracers boss into infinity, because you're just going to get bracers, but the Atiesh portion would mean you don't get an Ashkandi as easily as an Untamed Blade.
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#32 SquattingCow

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 03:10 AM

Nice post Digo.
One thing to add: why stop at a mail system for repairs? Why not have say, a vendor in your guild hall who subtracts the repair costs directly out of the guild bank? To prevent abuse, you can turn him on or off to free repairs at will. Any stragglers who log early can still mail (or suffer because they piked!)

Also, for above, an additional safety feature is you can yank back sets of gear at any time. So even if the person leaves, they might end up naked the next time they zone :P

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#33 henaki

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 03:19 AM

I think the concept of "Guild Property" is atrocious because there are going to be issues about it. While you may lose a Thunderfury or a set of Doomcaller here and there, if your guild leader goes on a powertrip, the entire guild loses their hard earned effort. I'm not sure where to strike a balance between the two issues, but it's something to think about before clamouring about "Guildbound" items. For every 5 "Movin on up" guys you have an Avatar, you're entire guild is fucked if he decides it's an awesome idea to take your second Thunderfury, and your next Kalimdor's Revenge, and Dark Edge, and Ash'Kandi and Might of Menethil... He has the power do this because he owns every guild item.

If you want to make "Guild Bound" items, what would be your anti-drama proposition?
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#34 Dakous

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 03:30 AM

If you want to make "Guild Bound" items, what would be your anti-drama proposition?

That every example you mentioned would not be a guild bound item. It would be a narrowly construed set of items - things people generally only want to raid. That is, specifically, the resist sets.

And I specifically mention how they wouldn't necessarily be guildbound if someone wants to go through the effort of putting together a personal set.
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#35 Hellmount

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 04:57 AM

Nice post Digo.
One thing to add: why stop at a mail system for repairs? Why not have say, a vendor in your guild hall who subtracts the repair costs directly out of the guild bank? To prevent abuse, you can turn him on or off to free repairs at will. Any stragglers who log early can still mail (or suffer because they piked!)

or simply repair bots that take gold from the guild bank.

#36 Pater

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 05:11 AM

I'd like to echo "guild faction," particularly for tradeskilling. Thorium Brotherhood would have been much better done this way.

The materials to gain faction are raid items (unless you crush your soul or burn $ getting DI ore). The benefit should flow to the guild rather than the individual. To tune it properly, you could certianly make it take about 10x as many mats to get up to Exalted (since you'd be benefitting 10 tradeskills at once).


I also like the notion of some guild property. Thunderfury is one example. You leave the guild, and it vanishes from your inventory and appears in the guild bank. Hell, doesn't even need to be BOP - just make it flagged so that only people in that guild can possess it.



I'm glad for all of the reliance on group effort, but the worlds we have here do not have the systems we have IRL to keep people honest. (I'm thinking mainly of contract and property law, I suppose.) Guild leaders and guild members can influence each other through soft factors, but there's no way to create binding agreements. You gear someone up and he guildhops or whatever, then you're just screwed. Sure, you can trash his reputation and yell at him, but that dishonest guild member is still able to sell his char on ebay or change servers and avoid consequences. IRL, you can force that bad employee to give back his laptop and you might be able to enforce a non-compete agreement that he signed when he was hired. And if he tries to sell some intellectual property that he developed using company resources, you might be able to stop him.

I would like to see MMOG systems that allow guilds to have a little more power than they currently do - that allow them to enforce agreements in way stronger than is currently possible.

#37 Thelyna

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 05:31 AM

Pater - how do you deal with the inverse case, that being corruption at the top? If guild officers/masters are to have more power, there needs to be a way for the members to deal with grievances.

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#38 oldmandennis

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 06:47 AM

Some pretty good ideas here.

3. Invest in your guild.
- Putting gold into the guild bank earns interest. Give your players additional incentive to strengthen their guild. Farming sessions aren't just about endlessly refilling a bucket with holes anymore. To curb enormous guild banks, it becomes auto-taxed once it reaches N amount.

This seems like a bad, inflationary idea to me. However, providing tools that let overly anal guilds charge interest for loans and distribute interest to creditors might be possible... probably still to complex.

4. In-game DKP management.
- Allow players to track attendance, loot, and anything else (dark glare deaths!) the guild needs. Keeps players in the game and not relying on external administrative applications. DKP is here to stay. It's going to be a part of any successful item-based MMO, so rather than burying their heads in the sand, devs need to accept it and find a simple, intuitive way to track this information in game with quests (easy tutorials) that teach players how to use it.

Is this not possible with addons? It seems like it would lead to an explosion of complexity (Who do you charge for that eyebeam chain? Did Gurgthok pull aggro because he is being stupid, or because he is doing his macho first healer to die thing on an attempt that was going down the tubes anyhow?)

I'd kill for in-game DKP tracking through the guild interface. Set up three automated DKP-tracking systems: Fixed-price zero-sum, accrued per hour with bidding, accrued per kill with bidding, and then have a wildcard "Custom" option that would just let players manually adjust values in-game.

More explosions of complexity. What about all your upgrade stuff, and special prices for resistance gear? From my guild, what about paying players on the wait list? I would probably say a builtin, exporting to XML attendance tracker and loot tracker is as far as I would go. Maybe a kill tracker too.

As far as constructive thoughts go I like closing the loop between casuals and more serious players. Guildbound items have potential for the serious -> casual half of the loop. How about this for the casual -> serious half: Repair/consumable costs are nerfed, but once a week or once a month items have to be "reworked" by a craftsman, costing semiserious amounts of materials. Joe Wrongtimezone can be given a Perditions, but he'd better continue to come up with thorium and arcanite if he wants the firey cores he needs to maintain it. This would also be more appealing if gathering was fun at all. Maybe if mines were little mininstances that take about 20min, but have 3-4 nodes at the bottom? I don't know how to fix herbing or skinning. Of course, all the guild bank enhancements previously discussed would help tracking all these mats bouncing around.

Also, semiofftopic, the alt-bank and mail crap around system is a complete mess. A total rework of the players bank is desperatly needed.


Hopefully they would also consider allowing for serving forums for guilds and maybe even options like TeamSpeak / Ventrilo.

DDO has builtin voicechat.

#39 SquattingCow

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 06:56 AM

Pater - how do you deal with the inverse case, that being corruption at the top? If guild officers/masters are to have more power, there needs to be a way for the members to deal with grievances.

Get a new guild.

Honestly, I'm really sick of games which impose restrictions which in the end are a hassle to 99% of people, and stop people getting away with things the other 1%. I realise the populace is to blame, but alot of this guild stuff could be set up in such a way as to be self regulated within the guild.

Just an aside, you can get GMs to transfer guild leadership if people havn't been on for about a month or so.

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#40 Dakous

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 06:56 AM

Yeah, I'm kinda against the idea of guilds running around saying, "All your raid loot is ours." We can probably get very derailed on the nature of individual versus group effort, but at the end of the day, if raiding doesn't have some personal reward, it doesn't happen.

I advocate only that certain items that really are guild resources (resist gear) become treated as such. Whereever you go, Ashkandi cuts people. Bramblewood set, practically noone is going to cry about that getting yoinked out of their inventory willy nilly, especially if it was chartered to you by the guild for the specific purpose of you showing up 90% of the time wearing it.
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