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Druid: Simple Questions/Simple Answers -- Now with FAQ!!


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#21 Duilliath

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Posted 20 March 2010 - 10:44 PM

Master Shapeshifter is not 2 points. It's 5. Wasting 3 points on Natural Shapeshifter does nothing for your threat. Looking at a 4% threat increase for 5 talent points is a lot less appealing than if you only consider the two points for MS itself.
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#22 Dargoth2

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Posted 21 March 2010 - 03:50 AM

Number of points wasn't the question, 2 or 5 is irrelevent, my question was regarding net gain. Does 2 points in kotj and 3 in imp mangle now give more threat than 3 in Natural Shapeshifter and 2 in Master Shapeshifter?

#23 Tiffara

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 04:52 PM

The difference in tps between 2/2 Master Shapeshifter and 3/3 Improved Mangle is minimal. In both my current gear and my hopeful best gear 2/2 MS is about a 1.5% increase in tps over 3/3 IM, according to Rawr (about 150 out of 9.5k). If you used Enrage on cooldown (which you might not want to, for a variety of reasons), 2 points in KotJ would get you 80+ tps (a bit harder to estimate, as it doesn't boost bonus threat).

With or without KotJ, I feel it's a small enough increase that you can go either way and not feel like you're making a bad call. I prefer improved mangle over master shapeshifter as it makes it more likely I'll be able to grab new/lose adds with a mangle to stabilize threat on them, plus I've been sticking with the older idol that's mangle based, so it helps me keep the buff up. IM plus 2/3 KotJ also help me feel not quite as useless when I go kitty in the middle of a fight.

Of course, this may just be a personal holdover from when there was only one feral spec, as I ran that way for quite a while in TBC.

#24 Dronus86

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Posted 23 March 2010 - 02:31 PM

Regarding feral DPS spec/rotation:

With the changes to mangle duration having landed in 3.3, I was wondering; how much of a DPS loss is it for a manglebot to drop Improved Mangle? With it only reducing the energy cost of mangle by 6, and only having to mangle 1/min, are the points less or more valuable over a 5 minute time than Feral Aggression? I suspect that Improved Mangle may now be almost exclusively a tanking talent with the duration change, but I am uncertain how to check.

#25 kalbear

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Posted 23 March 2010 - 07:57 PM

With the changes to mangle duration having landed in 3.3, I was wondering; how much of a DPS loss is it for a manglebot to drop Improved Mangle? With it only reducing the energy cost of mangle by 6, and only having to mangle 1/min, are the points less or more valuable over a 5 minute time than Feral Aggression? I suspect that Improved Mangle may now be almost exclusively a tanking talent with the duration change, but I am uncertain how to check.

Even if you have to keep up mangle yourself, this means that you will mangle once every 60 seconds. So each point of imp mangle saves you 2 energy for the 60-second period. That's the actual effect.

What the behavior is is roughly about a .1% boost to DPS per point in imp mangle, at best. Which is pretty weak and easily justifiable in removing it. Imp mangle is by all accounts solely a bear talent.

#26 Leafkiller

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Posted 24 March 2010 - 06:56 PM

Even if you have to keep up mangle yourself, this means that you will mangle once every 60 seconds. So each point of imp mangle saves you 2 energy for the 60-second period. That's the actual effect.

What the behavior is is roughly about a .1% boost to DPS per point in imp mangle, at best. Which is pretty weak and easily justifiable in removing it. Imp mangle is by all accounts solely a bear talent.


The possible exception being fights where you cannot always Shred. Examples include Lady Deathwhisper where adds are often facing you and Sindragosa where you may not be able to get behind an ice block you are working on. A different way to ask the question is what do you plan to use those points for and why? For example I was thinking that having Infected Wounds in a cat spec might be useful for LK phase 2 depending on raid comp.

#27 Taudark

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Posted 29 March 2010 - 02:25 AM

Number of points wasn't the question, 2 or 5 is irrelevent, my question was regarding net gain. Does 2 points in kotj and 3 in imp mangle now give more threat than 3 in Natural Shapeshifter and 2 in Master Shapeshifter?


Master Shapeshifter is better than imp mangle and kotj for overall threat even with 4T10 (using enrage without the bonus against bosses is just stupid). The reason you'd possibly take kotj with the bonus is for some burst threat in the beginning of the fight.

#28 Spuddelkopf

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 12:58 PM

What is the base damage of Dire Bear Form melee swings? As in: swing damage = AP/14 * swingspeed + base damage?

#29 kalbear

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 08:58 PM

Base bear attack damage:
BASE: 137+(AP/14)*2.5

#30 Talanik

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 10:08 PM

I'm at the point where gear choices become complicated. We're 11/12 heroic ICC, which means I have access to everything except Heroic Lich King Weapons. Unfortunately, without 281 Oathbinder, that leaves a lot of confusion on my part. I've narrowed down my choices to the following:

1. Use 277 Distant Land. While it's the 2nd best weapon in terms of standalone weapon DPS, it makes simutaneously capping ArP while keeping a decent amount of hit/expertise impossible. For this option, I'd cap ArP. However, this leaves my hit rating and expertise at painfully low levels. 91 Hit, and 92 Expertise.

2. Use 277 Distant Land. However, forsake the hard ArP cap and throw in a few hit gems to get to a respectable level. Drop down to about 1150-1200 ArP and try to get to around 180-200 Hit, and ~100 Expertise.

3. Use 271 Oathbinder. Due to the natural ArP on it, I am able to cap ArP sooner, thus freeing up more slots to fill up with hit gems. However, I lose the benefit of a higher quality weapon.


I've run this through in Rawr several times, and it insists that Option 1 is the best. It seems to place very, very little value on Hit/Expertise as stats. However, I have severe doubts. While hit/expertise is partially up to personal preference, having my Rake miss/be dodged for about 6 seconds while I watch helplessly as SR and Rip simultaneously fall off ties for first in the list of things that can induce me into a psychotic rage, right next to listening to Justin Bieber.

I'm just looking for some extra input on this subject pretty much. I'm leaning primarily towards option 2, but I'm unsure of the exact difference between say, 1200 ArP and 1400.

#31 Oktan

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 11:21 PM

Have you considered using Cryptmaker? The heroic version comes with a mountain of hit, and solves a lot of problems. Furthermore, it comes with 3 sockets and a ton of ArP. In addition, with heroic gear, you should be approaching crit cap, and thus agility becoming a lot less useful-- so, the strength is not a wasted stat at all. In fact, strength is still an excellent stat for cats. I'm not sure why more cats don't pick this up. Unless, its guild policy that they go to DPS warriors/DKs first.
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#32 Kauthier

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 12:12 AM

Maybe I'm blind but i haven't seen many posts on Feral macro's.

Can i macro maul to instant GCD abilities to increase my threat building? I tank with a DK usually and used to never having to hit rune strike :P

#33 Rannasha

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 09:45 AM

Maybe I'm blind but i haven't seen many posts on Feral macro's.

Can i macro maul to instant GCD abilities to increase my threat building? I tank with a DK usually and used to never having to hit rune strike :P


Yes, you can macro it just like you'd macro Rune Strike. However, you will lose the option to manage your rage in low-rage situations (they don't happen often, I grant you that). Where it doesn't matter if you burn all your RP on Rune Strike (correct me if I'm wrong, my knowledge of DK mechanics isn't that wonderful), there can be situations where you want to ensure you have rage for other abilities than Maul.

For this reason, I personally prefer not macroing Maul to my instant attacks. The Druid tanking rotation is not very complex, so adding another button to push every ~2 seconds isn't a big concern.

#34 kalbear

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 09:02 PM

I've run this through in Rawr several times, and it insists that Option 1 is the best. It seems to place very, very little value on Hit/Expertise as stats. However, I have severe doubts. While hit/expertise is partially up to personal preference, having my Rake miss/be dodged for about 6 seconds while I watch helplessly as SR and Rip simultaneously fall off ties for first in the list of things that can induce me into a psychotic rage, right next to listening to Justin Bieber.

This is going to be a problem no matter what; if your SR and rip are about to fall off you're going to be hosed anyway, even if that rake hit.

I'd honestly recommend just trying it. If you're not that comfortable going below the cap, fix it yourself. But try it first; if you're 11/12 it's not like it's going to be costly to regem/gear for you. That's what I did, and I found myself pleasantly surprised by the results; Rawr and other simulators were right on the money.

#35 eXcel905

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 10:30 PM

Do you ever clip rip? Like under a certain timer after full extension etc. Thanks.

#36 kalbear

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 10:42 PM

You should never clip rip; the only reasonable time to do so is when you could refresh a rip on a boss that you're not going to be hitting in the next 20 seconds and want as many DoTs to tick on them while you're not attacking.

#37 Jone

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 01:39 AM

You should never clip rip; the only reasonable time to do so is when you could refresh a rip on a boss that you're not going to be hitting in the next 20 seconds and want as many DoTs to tick on them while you're not attacking.


Back in T8, Nightcrowler said that clipping rip did improve DPS in some simulations, but that since rip will usually not let you overwrite it, he set up his model using SR clipping only. Post here: http://elitistjerks....p5/#post1186641

I don't believe there's been much work on the DPS impact of clipping rip.

#38 Fetkossa

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 02:52 PM

Is it worth putting 5 points in Feral Aggression if you always have a retribution paladin in the raid with 2/2 Vindication?

#39 Bonemage

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 06:43 PM

Varies by encounter. BPC it is very valuable because the ret will not always be on your target, DBS not very valuable since the ret will always be on him. The main opportunity costs are you give up rage/energy saving talents, which if you are raid tanking rage is never an issue, but could be an issue if you are spending a significant amount of time in cat form while in your tanking spec.

To put a more numeric value on it from some testing done by others early in WotLK link

Test on Mexxena

Normal Value 19,547 - 26,828 Damage
Base Reduction of -411: 17169-24450
Talented Reduction 1/5: 16978-24259
Talented Reduction 2/5: 16787-24068
Talented Reduction 3/5: 16596-23877
Talented Reduction 4/5: 16405-23686
Talented Reduction 5/5: 16220-23501

#40 Jurky24

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Posted 17 April 2010 - 11:53 AM

Hi.
Just one simple question. I paly boomkin and with gear from icc 10/25 I got a lot of crit and haste. But when I am using Bonespike (more often then with Nibelung) sometimes happened to my SF that it doesn´t show dmg it dealed, not even show me that sf missed (I have 275 hit) .

Can be this problem with interface? I have friend, he si palying boomkin too. He said to me that this sometimes heppened to him too.

Thank you




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