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ICC Crimson Hall-Blood Princes


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#1 Lanthon

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 03:52 PM

The first encounter in this wing is an execution check with a very cyclical nature. The purpose of this thread is to explore the mechanics for the many abilities present and to discuss optimal ways to address them. While many guilds have downed this encounter with few major issues, proper understanding is crucial.

In 25 man, it appears that three normal tanks are optimal. In 10 man, use your typical MT and OT, assigning the MT to the two physical princes and your OT to Keleseth. Six healers make 25 fairly easy, and with no hard or soft enrage, this seems the safe route. Five healers should be completely doable. In 10 man, three healers feels warranted, though 2 can be used with adequate gear/experience.

The normal and empowered abilities of this encounter are well-documented. There are a few mechanics which are not quite clear, which I will touch on below.

Tank Positioning

In 10 man, it is recommended that you tank Valanar and Taladram on top of one another with the same tank, to keep Vindication/Demo Roar/Demo Shout up and significantly reduce tank damage (thanks Redcape). Positioning is flexible and some report success at the top of the stairs or against a wall. Keleseth is mobile, and will follow his tank.

In 25 man, it is recommended that you tank Valanar and Taladram separately, due to Shock Blast. Assigning a tank to Taladram who can reduce AP will significantly decrease tank damage. Again, Keleseth will remain mobile.

Empowered Abilities

Prince Valanar will empower first, and Empowered Shock Vortex seems to be the hardest mechanic to learn. Ideally, all healers and ranged will be over 30 yards from Valanar and can avoid this entirely. Melee should be assigned to run in different directions, to ensure they are all 13 yards apart after the 4.5 second cast. Keep in mind the Keleseth tank will be running around collecting nuclei and may be hit by this ability.

Prince Taldaram will empower second and cast a stronger version of his flame sphere. In 10 man, this hit everyone within 15 yards of the target for 20-25,000 damage. We simply shielded the target and ignored it. In 25 man, it is beneficial to run away from the sphere, since it is more likely that there are others within 15 yards of the target.

Prince Keleseth will cast a stronger version of his shadow bolt. By the time these start hitting, the ranged tank should have at least 3-4 dark nuclei on him. The shadow damage reduction is multiplicative, using the formula 1-(0.65^N) where N is the number of nuclei (see Ciopo's post on page 2). This gives a reduction of:
1 Nuclei: 35% shadow reduction
2 Nuclei: 58%
3 Nuclei: 73%
4 Nuclei: 82%
5 Nuclei: 88%
6 Nuclei: 94%

The tank can expect to consistently keep 4-5 nuclei.

Other Annoying Abilities

Prince Valanar will cast Kinetic Bomb, which must be periodically dpsed to keep it floating. Some have reported a bug where it might be possible to launch it high enough to aggro Blood Queen Lana'thel. Three bombs can be active at a time, in both 10 and 25 man, and bombs can spawn anywhere in the room. Dps should be assigned to monitor areas of the room. Frost mages and hunters seem to be best at this. With 3 bombs, 2 dpsers are occupied nearly full-time. This unfairly affects 10 man.

Prince Taldaram will cast Glittering Sparks periodically. A random target will be chosen and those nearby will be affected. The damage from this ability is significant, and the movement speed debuff makes it hard to spread out for Empowered Shock Vortex. However, this ability can be dispelled/cleansed, and should be quickly.

Mechanics to Address

1. Nuclei aggro: It appears that nuclei will latch on to the target that last hit it. The are immune to AoE, but can be affected by abilities which hit multiple targets (multi-shot, chain lightning, etc). See Adana's research on page 2. It is possible to take a nuclei to your Keleseth tank and have him pull it off.

2. Keleseth tanking: Currently, concensus favors a normal tank. The increased health pool is very advantageous. Warlock or other caster tanks are certainly viable, particularly since the hotfix removing Keleseth's ability to melee.

3. Kinetic Bomb: This must be kept in the air, due to high raid damage and a wide-ranging knockback. It is not clear if they despawn on landing, but this is not believed to be the case. Up to 3 can exist at any given time, even in 10 man.

#2 Tinwhisker

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 04:53 PM

I'd like to add from my own experience that using Tricks to MD one of the princes with "1" health didn't seem to work correctly.

We hadn't planned on doing the council last night but had a little extra time so we pulled them twice just to see. In our 10man attempts we used a single tank for the two melee princes. The plan was for the tank to tag both and I would then force the prince that was not the primary target onto him using TotT before begging DPS (similarly to what we did for single tanking twin valks in TOGC10). We made sure to have our tank tag the prince first to put himself on the aggro table that way there shouldn't be any problems. After tagging the prince, the prince started to run towards the tank, at which point I began TotT and DPS on him. He promptly turned and killed me.

#3 Alerian

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 04:59 PM

Figure out how aggro tables on Nuclei work. It seems the first person to attack them gains aggro. It was observed that a Shadow Word: Pain caused them to channel the priest before the tick even hit. They will not latch on to a healer through incidental threat. It is therefore proposed that the first target to attack them receives a fixate-like threat value which will likely keep them targetting the first attacker until the nuclei dies. Provided they cannot lose aggro, the ranged tank should hit them with a non-damaging spell or a low rank dot.


The Nuclei can switch targets. I picked up the ones on the opposite side of the room from our Warlock and he was able to have them move to him, but they seemed to take longer to pull off than regular mobs.

#4 Kirth

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 05:10 PM

I noticed last night that as soon as I hit one (The Nuclei) i had alot of threat, people would bring other to me and I could pull them off with a single dot. I'd assume that they focus whoever last did damage to them. This was a problem when a druid pulled on with a dot and it switched back to him after one tick.

#5 Reeshet

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 05:31 PM

We made a couple of attempts in our last 30 minutes of raiding last night and we had similar aggro issues.

We assigned a warrior tank to each of the princes along with a warlock ranged tank. When the warriors charged in, the second warrior would immediately lose threat on the prince with just 1 HP. MD & TotT didn't seem to help at all.

For the Dark Nuclei, I can totally believe that it fixates on whoever did damage last. We made one attempt with me (warrior) tanking the Shadow Prince (Keleseth) and it turns out the Dark Nuclei are immune to Taunt (at least, warrior's taunt which does no damage) so I called for misdirect and the nuclei immediately turns and latches onto the hunter. I'll admit that after two times of this I thought bad things of our hunter, but if they don't have an aggro table but instead just fixate on last person to do damage to them, that would make sense. (Don't know if it's true, but it fits our observations).

#6 arison

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 06:37 PM

There is no need for a ranged tank in 10 man -- just have one tank pick up Taladram and Valanar and your other tank pick up Keleseth and collect nuclei. Sure, you could have a warlock or other ranged class do it, but this is just a two tank fight, and it makes healing much more forgiving (letting you effectively bring more dps -- one gained from not using three healers, and one gained from not having a third tank).

#7 Fnear

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 06:56 PM

The amount of boost a kinetic bomb gets from a hit appears to be independent of damage done. So a faster spammable spell will get you more lift-per-unit-time than a slower but more damaging spell.

For example, Arcane Barrage doesn't seem to push the bomb up any higher than Ice Lance per cast, but Ice Lance is spammable on GCD.

Also, a water elemental can keep a Kinetic Bomb up indefinitely (if it stays alive). Presumably an imp could do the job too.

#8 Cloudgatherer

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 07:02 PM

There is no need for a ranged tank in 10 man -- just have one tank pick up Taladram and Valanar and your other tank pick up Keleseth and collect nuclei. Sure, you could have a warlock or other ranged class do it, but this is just a two tank fight, and it makes healing much more forgiving (letting you effectively bring more dps -- one gained from not using three healers, and one gained from not having a third tank).

Was your group successful with this strat? We played around with various tanking approaches last night and were testing to see if what you described was feasible, and our conclusion is that it probably is not wise to do this. We wiped a bit due to trying to drop a healer/tank because we were in a bit of dis-belief that a 10 man encounter would "encourage" 3 tanks 3 healers. The princes melee damage is about 15-20K per swing, which so the tank would take 30K+ damage per "swing", pretty much meaning said tank dies in under 4 seconds . One healer can't heal 50K damage in 4 seconds consistently, last I checked, especially if your healer needs to move for any reason.

Once we finally decided to go 3 tanks 3 heals, we pretty much had the fight down, but stopped due to how late it was. We also got the impression that the fight was harder on 10 than it is on 25, which is something I'll find out for myself later this week.

#9 arison

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 07:38 PM

Yes, we were successful with a mildly peculiar healing setup (two druids):

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Admittedly gear definitely carries you quite a distance on this, but we found our range tank (a mage) died too easily on the pull or with any lapse in healing (which can happen due to movement requirements). Once we switched to just two tanking the fight, it was 1-2 pulls to a kill.

#10 Feist-Mok

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 07:47 PM

The amount of boost a kinetic bomb gets from a hit appears to be independent of damage done. So a faster spammable spell will get you more lift-per-unit-time than a slower but more damaging spell.

For example, Arcane Barrage doesn't seem to push the bomb up any higher than Ice Lance per cast, but Ice Lance is spammable on GCD.

Also, a water elemental can keep a Kinetic Bomb up indefinitely (if it stays alive). Presumably an imp could do the job too.


Be careful using pets - this was the cause of the bug that caused Lana'thel to pull early wasting an attempt.

#11 Andeh

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 09:15 PM

Be careful using pets - this was the cause of the bug that caused Lana'thel to pull early wasting an attempt.


In addition, be wary of some things using pets. First, it is possible to have more than 1 bomb up at once, so you can't simply have 1 Warlock using an Imp and expecting to have the bombs taken care of. Second, the pets have travel time to get in range. Third, while Hunter pets can hit the bombs for a while, after they reach a certain height, they will go out of range, and the pet will switch to the next closest target.

#12 Adaren

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 09:34 PM

In 25 man we saw a max of 4 bombs up at once, and they appear to spawn randomly around the room. Myself and another hunter split the room up North/South and were in charge of keeping the orbs up. With 2 bombs you could do some damage to the current prince, but with 3 it became a full time job just to keep them up.

#13 Fnear

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 10:54 PM

In 25 man we saw a max of 4 bombs up at once, and they appear to spawn randomly around the room. Myself and another hunter split the room up North/South and were in charge of keeping the orbs up. With 2 bombs you could do some damage to the current prince, but with 3 it became a full time job just to keep them up.


I've seen 3 up at the same time in 10-man. Usually I get the first hit and boost it with ice lance spam then leave the WE on it to maintain while I handle bombs in a different sector.

I'm thinking it might make sense to have four quadrants and a ranged DPS in each to handle whatever bombs show up in their quadrant. But in 10-man that's 3 tanks, 3 healers, 4 ranged DPS.... Maybe just 2 quadrants in 10-man.

#14 Shockandawe

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 11:08 PM

We got them to 1% as best tonight, teh only reason we didnt have a kill was because Keleseth meeled our warlock which one shotted him on about 20%, so when Keleseth got empowered it wiped us. Does anyone know the reason for Keleseth to just run up to the range tank and meele?
We had this happen on other attempts too. Sometimes it was in the middle of the fight and sometimes in the start. To avoid him going strait for the ranged tank in the begining we used Blessing of Protection on him so he wouldnt be meeled. It seemed to work fine, but we still had teh incident were Keleseth would just stop casting and decide to run to the ranged tank and meele him.
Anyone else experienced this?

#15 Juno

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 11:28 PM

The tuning on the 10man version seems way off. There were so many kinetic bombs spawning that in such a big room with so few people and depending on group makeup where you might not have much ranged at all it just seemed pretty unfeasible. Sometimes there could be up to 3 orbs in different locations in the room. The damage seemed really big too. We wiped for 2 hours about and it was really hard to get any headway with how much damage went off. We tried 1 warlock tank, few tries we had a prot pala substituting but the melee hits and keeping nuclei on him was pretty hard. And then 2 other tanks and 3 healers, so 3 tanks and 3 healers, which left us with 1 ranged dps or 2 if the warlock wasn't tanking. We didn't try any 2 tank tactic due to the sheer melee damage, but that's definitely something we'd try next time.

#16 Lokthra

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 01:52 AM

We got them to 1% as best tonight, teh only reason we didnt have a kill was because Keleseth meeled our warlock which one shotted him on about 20%, so when Keleseth got empowered it wiped us. Does anyone know the reason for Keleseth to just run up to the range tank and meele?
We had this happen on other attempts too. Sometimes it was in the middle of the fight and sometimes in the start. To avoid him going strait for the ranged tank in the begining we used Blessing of Protection on him so he wouldnt be meeled. It seemed to work fine, but we still had teh incident were Keleseth would just stop casting and decide to run to the ranged tank and meele him.
Anyone else experienced this?



We had something similar happen in 10 man. One time quickly after the pull, our shadowpriest was hit by 2 shadow bolts and then a melee. The other was while the spriest (our ranged tank) was moving to pick up nuclei. The priest stopped after getting the nucleus, but Keleseth did not stop moving, instead running up and critting him for 70k.
I would venture a guess that it is all about movement, as both of our melee gibs occurred on occasions where Keleseth should have stopped moving, but did not. One possibility to fix this would be to have people assigned to pick up the nuclei and bring them to the ranged tank, who will then attack it once to get aggro. This removes all movement for Keleseth except the pull, and possibly a flame orb. Can't say I have tried it yet, but probably will when we get a chance.

#17 Iluminati

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 05:30 AM

Caster mobs melee-ing is not a new phenomenon. If you are in melee range while the boss is not casting, there is a good chance they will melee one time before starting their next spell. This used to happen on Eredar twins as well. Just never be in melee range, ever.

Using a discipline priest and a holy paladin, we successfully used a two tank strat for 10 man. Our prot pally picked up Keleseth and Nuclei while our prot warrior picked up the other two. With perfect/very good execution (good movement on shock nova, no kinetic bomb explosions) it was doable. Tanks spiked quite severely on occasion usually following a shock blast forcing healers to move, etc. or when nuclei were not co-operating. Honestly I would not recommend a this unless your tanks are in very good gear (ours were in all 251+) and your healers are spot on.

#18 LiteSabre

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 05:32 AM

If they absolutely have to, melee can hit the kinetic bomb and force it back into the air by jumping and spamming skills/white hits.

The nuclei seem to latch onto the last person to hit them with a high aggro pulse that makes it pretty much impossible to tear aggro off with healing. Unfortunately this also means that any stray aoe can pull them off the Keleseth tank with equal ease. We had good results with our lock tank staying in a relatively confined area and building aggro, and having one of our mages run around and grab nucleus aggro with ice lance and kite them back so our lock could pick them up without having to potentially move into Keleseth's melee range. Time will tell if hard mode dps demands make this unfeasible.

#19 Bullshot

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 08:08 AM

There were certain occasions in our attempts last night when a Kinetic Bomb would despawn after one minute but still explode and knock everyone back. We have currently chalked it down to it having a dot on it at the time of despawn which led to the explosion in mid-air. Anyone else run into this phenomenon or have ideas about why it happens?

#20 Kuku

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 09:19 AM

Honestly, you're bringing three tanks for many of the fights in here, you should use them all on this fight. Ranged tanking just leads to gibs and wipes.

I tanked Keleseth with my paladin today. After generating some initial threat, I spent a considerable amount of time collecting Dark Nuclei and spamming Hammer of Wrath on Keleseth.

If a dark nucleus is not attached (targeting) another player, any offensive action should get it on you. For that purpose, I used Hand of Reckoning. The Nuclei were immune to it, but they aggro'd me nonetheless.

If a dark nucleus is currently attached to another player, you must damage it. I used exorcism and avenger's shield to great effect. Melee range abilities also worked, obviously.

After generating initial threat, it becomes a game of picking up new nuclei. If you have a comfortable amount of nuclei on you (3), you should continue generating threat during non-invocation periods. Again, Hammer of Wrath is excellent for this purpose, but every tank has little tricks to help them with various components of tanking Keleseth.

Nuclei will often aggro onto other players, likely due to AOE. They sometimes aggro onto healers, which may or may not be related to the current health of the nucleus. I will not speculate further. Regardless, you must either grab them back or collect new nuclei. Collecting new nuclei is preferable as they tend to stick to you a lot longer.


Ranged tanking works, but I would strongly suggest not doing so.




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