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#21 Zynth

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 11:26 AM

Honestly, you're bringing three tanks...



I think it would depend on what kind of tanks your guild has to fill the slots. Or rather I should say, if you don't have a Prot Paladin, it may not be worth the effort to tank Keleseth, not to say it wouldn't be possible. A Paladin already has a large arsenal of abilities as the previous post has highlighted, the key fact of which, is that they can be used at range.

A warrior would be damn near impossible to efficiently tank with out running the risk of a (melee + emp. lance + anything else) combo. The damage is already very spiky across the board, adding regular melee swings would not be recommended. In addition warriors have the worst ranged capabilities.

Druids fair slightly better than warriors with savage defense to reduce the melee portion of incoming damage and feral faerie fire to tag nuceli. It could work, but whether or not it's more efficient to do so is yet to be determined.

DKs are probably the only other traditional tank that are equipped to handle it. Melee/Dot in-between casts, DnD, and DC to tag nuceli. A DK probably wouldn't even need to be tank spec'd.

The key factors in choosing a traditional tank for Keleseth will be who your raid has available and the individual skill level of the persons in question.

#22 Inaiwae

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 12:34 PM

I can confirm that on 10man we had 3 kinetic bombs up at a time.

#23 Jayde

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 01:41 PM

Caster mobs melee-ing is not a new phenomenon. If you are in melee range while the boss is not casting, there is a good chance they will melee one time before starting their next spell. This used to happen on Eredar twins as well. Just never be in melee range, ever.


Actually, the issue seems to be a bit inverse of this.

The issue Shock was describing was that of when the Warlock got knocked back, he was out of range for the Shadow Lances--so naturally the boss started running toward him. The problem was the boss is not stop, he just continued running up to him and smacked him in the face with an 80k crit. :P

It does seem a bit iffy is there is no surefire way to prevent this, as the Warlock could end up being knocked back at any time by a randomly targeted Shock Blast.

I'd be inclined to try with 3 'normal' tanks instead unless there is some more reliable way to prevent him meleeing, since a melee vs. cloth is pretty much an instant death.

#24 Haakhon

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 01:55 PM

The tuning on the 10man version seems way off. There were so many kinetic bombs spawning that in such a big room with so few people and depending on group makeup where you might not have much ranged at all it just seemed pretty unfeasible. Sometimes there could be up to 3 orbs in different locations in the room. The damage seemed really big too. We wiped for 2 hours about and it was really hard to get any headway with how much damage went off. We tried 1 warlock tank, few tries we had a prot pala substituting but the melee hits and keeping nuclei on him was pretty hard. And then 2 other tanks and 3 healers, so 3 tanks and 3 healers, which left us with 1 ranged dps or 2 if the warlock wasn't tanking. We didn't try any 2 tank tactic due to the sheer melee damage, but that's definitely something we'd try next time.


This fight is very well tuned for 10 man. We are a 10 man only guild and we did it without any big problem. The first night we did try the Blood Princes is to learn the mechanic and see what happen we did about 8-9 try and the next day we did kill them.

What we learn form those try is the Keleseth tank die every pull for nothing and we ask him to go buy the PvP set gear gemmed with Stamina and at the end our Shadow priest got like 33k raid buff so we solve on big problem. Secondly we position Valanar on the east side of the room and Taldaram near the entrance. We did that positionning so the healer can stand near the middle to reach everyone for healing but more important is that the Keleseth tank can move everywhere to grab the nucleid without worry.

We did the 3 tank ( 2 melee Warr/Paly and 1 ranged Shadow Priest), 3 healer 1 on the ranged tank a Druid, Paly on the 2 melee tank with a beacon and the other one was focussing on the raid dmg and 3 dps for the boss and for the Kenetic bomb we assign one ranged dps to focus all the time and it was a Frost mage with is pet and if a third bomd did appear and was near the door we ask the other ranged dps or a tank to push it in the air.

As you can see on the image below we didnt have big dps on the boss only 3 and fight was about 6m long.


http://img260.images.../princedead.jpg

This fight is not about dps is a fight that you need to get a good positionning and coordination that all.
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#25 Redcape

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 02:06 PM

I would concur with the 10 man version being challenging, but not overtuned. My guild is 10 man strict and we beat it after about 8 pulls or so. We had a few big challenges:

1. Our DK tank had no AP reduction debuff. When his target was getting meleed by a Ret paladin it was no problem, but once the Ret swapped away that boss started swinging for 18-20k and just ended up blowing up the DK. We fixed this by tanking both melee bosses on top of each other so we could share the demo roar/Vindication debuffs and keep them under control.

2. Valanar positioning was challenging for the nuclei tank (shadowpriest). We had to make sure Valanar was in a spot where the melee had a consistent route to get away while not blocking off half the zone when he cast Empowered Shock Vortex. The strategy that ended up working best was to park Valanar about 15 yards from a wall so the melee had just enough room to run to the wall, split up and not hit each other.

3. Kinetic Orbs were a real challenge, particularly when there were 3. After the 3 tanks and healers there just aren't a lot of bodies left to go around so we had one person covering the whole room. The Kinetic Orb hunter had a brutal time trying to stay out of Shock Vortexes and still get to every Kinetic Orb in time. In 25s this seems like it would be much less of a problem since you can have a number of ranged handling Orbs in a particular chunk of the room and still dpsing a lot.

Taldaram's Sparks cone seems like it would be best dealt with by putting him in the middle of the room. This way his cone should be hitting 1/6 of the raid or so, whereas when he is tanked in a corner it will often hit almost everyone.
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#26 Lanthon

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 02:14 PM

After tanking this encounter in 25 last night and reading the posts here, the abilities and strategies are more clear. I have therefore updated the OP. A normal tank is preferable on Keleseth, mainly due to the nature of the dark nuclei shadow reduction buff. By the way, I'd appreciate it if a math-type would check my numbers in the OP. A normal tank has no issues gathering nuclei and even meleeing Keleseth for threat (a cooldown is advised here, however).

Ironically, this fight seems easier in 25 man, due to the flexibility in healing and the ease of handling Kinetic Bomb.

#27 ciopo

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 02:30 PM

Prince Keleseth will cast a stronger version of his shadow bolt. By the time these start hitting, the ranged tank should have at least 3-4 dark nuclei on him. Because the shadow damage reduction is multiplicative, and not additive, the ranged tank should try to keep 4 nuclei on him. There is very little benefit to having more than 4, though more should be added before current nuclei die.

1 Nuclei: 35% shadow reduction
2 Nuclei: 47.25%
3 Nuclei: 51.55%
4 Nuclei: 52.05%


Wouldn't it be a combined reduction of 1-(0.65^N), where N is the number of nuclei?

1 Nuclei: 35% reduction
2 Nuclei: 58% reduction approximated
3 Nuclei: 73% reduction approximated
4 Nuclei: 82% reduction approximated

If, as you suggest, 4 nuclei was only 52% damage reduction, the empowered shadow lance would do around 45-50k damage, which is inconsistent with the damage our warlock was taking.

#28 Cartesian

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 02:33 PM

Something's really wonky with your math regarding the Nuclei damage reduction.

1 Nuclei - tank takes 65% damage
2 Nuclei - tank takes (0.65^2)*100% = 42.25% damage
3 Nuclei - tank takes (0.65^3)*100% = 25.46% damage
4 Nuclei - tank takes (0.65^4)*100% = 17.85% damage
5 Nuclei - tank takes (0.65^5)*100% = 11.60% damage
I'm not sure if it's possible to have more than 5 due to their short lifespans.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that the fight prefers 3 tanks, after all the mechanics are largely the same in 10man where it's unlikely you have 3 tanks and pretty much have to use a dps to tank Keleseth. I feel that the benefit of the larger health pool of a traditional tank is pretty much neutralized by generally weaker ranged abilities for nuclei pulling and the larger amounts of damage he takes from having to go to melee for threat generation.

#29 Vanadi

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 02:44 PM

Searing totems are quite effective in keeping the Kinetic Bombs flying if they aren't near a boss. The duration of a searing totem is just as long as the Kinetic Bomb lasts. Shadowpriest's are quite effective as tanks on this fight as they can dispersion when Keleseth empowerers to buy the healers a bit more time.
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#30 Lilbitters

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 02:55 PM

We found the best method in 10 man to be:

1 tank holding Valanar and Taldram in a corner (we used the door up to Lana'thel on the right)
1 DPS holding Keleseth near the middle of the room (obviously though he'd move to pick up Nuclei)

We had our second tank spec DPS and used 3 healers (resto Druid, resto Shaman, Disc Priest).

Had 1 hunter cover all the Kinetic Orbs, it was relatively easy and some boss DPS time was still definitely manageable.


Our kill was just under 3 minutes and was drastically easier than when we tried 3 tanks because it allowed the 2 healers to focus on the 2 tanks and the druid could toss around Rejuv on the raid when needed.

Wall positioning also worked well because having the mobs stacked allowed faster target switching.

#31 Harwin

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 03:24 PM

In 25 man we saw a max of 4 bombs up at once, and they appear to spawn randomly around the room. Myself and another hunter split the room up North/South and were in charge of keeping the orbs up. With 2 bombs you could do some damage to the current prince, but with 3 it became a full time job just to keep them up.


I'm surprised you saw 4. Across both pulls where we had them under control (2nd to last pull + kill) it was reliably 3. And it was pretty much guaranteed that as soon as one despawned, the next one spawned.

I know this because we had 3 ranged w/ pets on them (including me) and we would each mark the bomb we were keeping up - whenever mine vanished I'd immediately start looking for the next one - which would appear a few seconds later.

They started bunching up a bit presumably due to his other abilities moving the timer - but it seemed very reliable that a new one spawned shortly after the previous one despawned.

#32 ciopo

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 03:56 PM

Searing totems are quite effective in keeping the Kinetic Bombs flying if they aren't near a boss. The duration of a searing totem is just as long as the Kinetic Bomb lasts. Shadowpriest's are quite effective as tanks on this fight as they can dispersion when Keleseth empowerers to buy the healers a bit more time.


Searing totems are dangerous in the sense they can't be controlled.

If they decide that nuclei are more worth being attacked than the kinetic bomb you're back to square one with the kinetic bomb not taken care of AND an extra annoyance for the Keleseth tank.

#33 Lanthon

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 04:18 PM

Thank you ciopo and Cartesian for fixing my math. I've updated the OP. Also, Redcape's thoughts on using demo shout/roar/Vindication is very important. In 25 last night, it seemed the AP debuff reduced their melee swing damage by 3-5k damage.

#34 Kuku

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 04:46 PM

I think it would depend on what kind of tanks your guild has to fill the slots. Or rather I should say, if you don't have a Prot Paladin, it may not be worth the effort to tank Keleseth, not to say it wouldn't be possible. A Paladin already has a large arsenal of abilities as the previous post has highlighted, the key fact of which, is that they can be used at range.

A warrior would be damn near impossible to efficiently tank with out running the risk of a (melee + emp. lance + anything else) combo. The damage is already very spiky across the board, adding regular melee swings would not be recommended. In addition warriors have the worst ranged capabilities.

Druids fair slightly better than warriors with savage defense to reduce the melee portion of incoming damage and feral faerie fire to tag nuceli. It could work, but whether or not it's more efficient to do so is yet to be determined.

DKs are probably the only other traditional tank that are equipped to handle it. Melee/Dot in-between casts, DnD, and DC to tag nuceli. A DK probably wouldn't even need to be tank spec'd.

The key factors in choosing a traditional tank for Keleseth will be who your raid has available and the individual skill level of the persons in question.


I'm not sure how a warrior would have any problem surviving the melee swings. Furthermore, you only get meleed if you are in melee range, which is something you should not be doing during the empowered phase (since you are constantly collecting new nuclei).

Also, warriors are a highly mobile tanking class with potential to use intercepts and intervenes to cover distance. Add in the ranged weapon and they should be quite adept at picking up nuclei.

I will agree, however, that a DK is well suited to the job. Regardless, this is not a typical tanking job and you really do need to consider more than you usually would when deciding who can handle it. A warrior, with all the things I have mentioned (intervene, intercept, ranged weapon, and a few other things), should be just as capable as a paladin in this role.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that the fight prefers 3 tanks, after all the mechanics are largely the same in 10man where it's unlikely you have 3 tanks and pretty much have to use a dps to tank Keleseth. I feel that the benefit of the larger health pool of a traditional tank is pretty much neutralized by generally weaker ranged abilities for nuclei pulling and the larger amounts of damage he takes from having to go to melee for threat generation.


You still don't want to ranged tank it on 10-man. Just have one of your tanks tanking both melee mobs while the other tank handles Keleseth.

This, by the way, is also viable on 25-man. You shouldn't ever have to, but you can.

#35 Tinwhisker

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 04:56 PM

In our 25man alt run, I did the first couple attempts as a range tank on my SPriest. But due to the insta-gib of the melee when he'd follow me but not stop, we settled on having a pally tank take care of him due to their ability to grab orbs from at least some distance and survive the occasional melee. It worked out really, really well.

On a side-note, the fight is a lot more fun if the whole raid puts up their "Twilight Vanquisher" titles and glares/emos at Edward, er Taldaram.

#36 Edana

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 05:16 PM

A couple observations from our kill last night (25-man):

We started with having a warlock tank Keleseth, but were having problems with survivability, especially from random melee swings due to movement. We switched to me tanking him, and had no issues with aggro or incoming damage. His melee hits are pretty significant though, clocking in around 25k with no demo shout up. The one time I died to him was due to allowing too many of my nuclei to die without getting more during his empower. It seems beneficial to have someone designated to bring nuclei to the tank, especially during the empower so that he can be planted so the melee don't need to move while dpsing him. Having hunters MD Keleseth to his tank on cooldown can help immensely on threat, especially given that kill shot is available for a large portion of the fight with the prince at 1 hp.

Looking through our logs, I can find no instance of a pure AE ability even hitting the nuclei, the only ae-like abilities that I can see hitting them are Heart Strike, Cleave, and Chain Lightning. I have no way of verifying if those were used initially targeting the nuclei, or if it was the secondary hits going to them. Given that I run a frost tank spec and use HB quite often, if they were affected by AE I should be seeing quite a few hits from that at least. This should mean that there are no worries about dps stripping nuclei from the tank from incidental abilities. (I am pretty sure the chain lightning was during one of our earlier attempts after our warlock had died. The Heart Strikes and Cleaves, however, seem to cluster mostly during the empowered phases, so it's possible they can still hit the nuclei as secondary targets. Since you don't really want to stand in melee range during the empowered phase anyway though, you should be able to mitigate this risk relatively easily.)

The final portion of the op also says that "shadow lance can only receive 52% reduction through Dark Nuclei", which is not true, as I have several instances of 7.5k empowered hits with no absorbs (it does not appear to be partially resistable), that would equate to a minimum of ~91% reduction. Even taking frost presence reductions into account, the reduction is still significantly over 52%.
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#37 xmod2

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 05:20 PM

Just a note, besides knocking the orbs up through the ceiling and aggroing Blood Queen (which wastes an attempt), we had a situation where a boomkin with the seagull staff had his Valkyr end up smiting Blood Queen (which also blew an attempt).

We believe it procced on an orb and then when the orb ended, the Valkyr switched targets to Blood Queen. Just a heads up to people assigning ranged with to the orbs.

#38 Cloudgatherer

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 06:09 PM

I'm still not sold on 1 tank for both physical princes in 10 man, then again if it is a pally tank, sure why not...

Last night was the first time many of our raiders saw the fight, and we killed it on 25. Several wipes were due to kinetic bombs, one of them apparently detonated on the ceiling according to one of our hunters. So while we did not agro the Blood Queen, we did find new and interesting ways to wipe.

Even the Tankspot video commented on how Empowered Vortex -> Empowered Flame = wipe, but there is a simple solution to this problem which we tried last night: no one goes within 30 yards of Valanar. It vastly simplifies the fight if you stick Valanar in the corner and only have ranged/healers over there, let the melee spread out or keep up dps debuffs on the other princes. With no known enrage timer, we just turned it into a control fight around orbs and the vortex spawns, blew heroism when the fire prince had invocation of blood.

As far as Keleseth tanking, I did that. I simply ran up to him and wailed on him at the start, better chance of avoiding his melee strike at the beginning vs. eating his shadow bolts, then I just ran around the room collecting nuclei and dropped DnD/IT on Keleseth from time to time. The raid would inform me when I got targeted with Empowered Fire Orb, and I'd just stop moving and pop AMS to take care of that.

#39 Cobs

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 08:11 PM

For those conventional tanks that have tanked Keleseth can you confirm or deny which of your abilities worked to pull nuclei onto you? It was mentioned that strict AE abilities were not (which would suggest DnD and consecrate shouldn't) but there are a bunch of quasi AE abilities that could e.g. thunderclap, cleave, shockwave, hammer of righteousness, avengers shield, swipe, demo roar/shout (shouldn't i imagine) among others.

The idea being if some of the easier to maintain AE abilities worked you could have a stationary keleseth tank have a ranged dps or healer shuttle nuclei into the area and wait for the AE to go off and the nuclei attaches to the tank. The best example would be a pally keeping consecrate up in the same place and having 1 ranged pick up nuclei and run them into it. This would work as well for other abilities listed.

My gut tells me that abilities that DO work will be the same ones that do full damage to bloodbeasts and faction champs that arent strict AE spells.

#40 Edana

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 08:59 PM

For those conventional tanks that have tanked Keleseth can you confirm or deny which of your abilities worked to pull nuclei onto you? It was mentioned that strict AE abilities were not (which would suggest DnD and consecrate shouldn't) but there are a bunch of quasi AE abilities that could e.g. thunderclap, cleave, shockwave, hammer of righteousness, avengers shield, swipe, demo roar/shout (shouldn't i imagine) among others.

The idea being if some of the easier to maintain AE abilities worked you could have a stationary keleseth tank have a ranged dps or healer shuttle nuclei into the area and wait for the AE to go off and the nuclei attaches to the tank. The best example would be a pally keeping consecrate up in the same place and having 1 ranged pick up nuclei and run them into it. This would work as well for other abilities listed.

My gut tells me that abilities that DO work will be the same ones that do full damage to bloodbeasts and faction champs that arent strict AE spells.


Here's the full list of debuffs that affected the dark nucleus in the 8 pulls we did (hopefully tables will be readable enough so that these don't end up as ridiculously long lists):

[table]Misery|Frost Fever|Curse of Agony|Judgement of Light
Flame Shock|Shadow Mastery|Mind Flay|Corruption
Holy Vengeance|Vindication|Vampiric Touch|Mangle (Cat)
Devouring Plague|Explosive Shot[/table]

Here's all the damage sources vs. the nuclei:

[table]Arcane Barrage|Arcane Missiles|Auto Shot|Chain Lightning|Cleave
Corruption|Curse of Agony|Death Coil|Devouring Plague|Explosive Shot
Fire Blast|Flame Shock|Frost Fever|Heart Strike|Holy Vengeance
Icy Touch|Improved Devouring Plague|Judgement|Lava Burst|Mangle (Cat)
Melee|Mind Flay|Pillar of Flame|Quick Shot|Rune Strike
Shadow Bolt|Shoot|Steady Shot|Vampiric Touch[/table]

From these, it looks pretty safe to conclude that Demo Shout/Roar, Howling Blast, Consecrate, Divine Storm and Holy Wrath don't affect the nuclei. (All of these were used fairly liberally during our pulls. The odds of every nuclei being oor of every instance of their use seems improbable at best.) The only outliers seem to be HS, Cleave and CL. I would definitely be interested in others' experiences with those abilities especially.

I was generally using Icy Touch to get orbs on me, and we had a shadow priest shuttling the farther ones to me (one tick of mind flay or a wand hit is all it takes to tag them). Death Coil would also be an acceptable choice for transferring the orbs. I just went with IT because the dot means it's less likely that someone will accidentally take them from me and the total damage is about the same, with an assistant shuttling orbs their longevity is rarely an issue.
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