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ICC Crimson Hall-Blood Princes


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#41 TimWischmeier

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 09:33 PM

The only outliers seem to be HS, Cleave and CL.


If I am not mistakes, those are not outliers, because they are actually multi-target-abilities. In contrast to AE-abilities, multi-target abilities often work where AE does not (faction champions, blood beasts).

#42 Tinwhisker

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 09:35 PM

The only outliers seem to be HS, Cleave and CL. I would definitely be interested in others' experiences with those abilities especially.


With Chain Lightning it appears that each jump of it can tag a nucleus and pull it as we saw last night. This happened when the tank got too close to Kel in the alt run and CL jumped to the orbs.

#43 Zynth

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 10:01 PM

For those conventional tanks that have tanked Keleseth can you confirm or deny which of your abilities worked to pull nuclei onto you? It was mentioned that strict AE abilities were not (which would suggest DnD and consecrate shouldn't) but there are a bunch of quasi AE abilities that could e.g. thunderclap, cleave, shockwave, hammer of righteousness, avengers shield, swipe, demo roar/shout (shouldn't i imagine) among others.


I do recall on a wipe where I tried to steal our warlocks nuclei, I ran over to them, dropped shockwave and followed up with jump/thunderclap. I didn't hit a single thing. Either they were too high, I experienced some odd lag/desync at that exact moment, or they cant be hit normal AEs.

#44 Kaejin

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 11:20 PM

If I am not mistakes, those are not outliers, because they are actually multi-target-abilities. In contrast to AE-abilities, multi-target abilities often work where AE does not (faction champions, blood beasts).


Are you sure? Is this a recent change?

All through 3.2, Heart Strike would suffer from the Champion's Aegis effect making Blood a nightmare to try and play as on Champs, especially since cleaves can break CC as well. I haven't been Blood since 3.3 started, so I wouldn't know if they did something to change that or not. However, I am skeptical.

#45 Jagiya

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 11:34 PM

Re: Zynth
It would have been the latter - I recall in situations like Oculus and Mt. Hyjal where there were mobs flying very high above, Shockwave/Thunder Clap were still able to hit them as long as they were within range. Similarly, I was able to FoK the Gargoyles in Hyjal a few days ago even though they were mere specks in the sky above.

#46 maddfez

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 04:47 PM

Not sure if this represents an actual hotfix or just random chance, but on last night's 25 man kill I tanked Keleseth (as a prot warrior) and received zero melee hits during the encounter. That would suggest to me that they may have removed his ability to melee, as I was most definitely in melee range on a regular basis.

log for reference
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Seems like advocating Darwinism would be the best solution.


The achievement would be much easier if it wasn't as hard.


#47 Ashika

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 08:37 PM

Just wanted to update players on the hotfixes that have been applied recently to Icecrown Citadel...

Blood Prince Council

- Prince Keleseth will no longer melee players. So if you get knocked into Keleseth or happen to move by him, he won't swipe in between his casts and kill a non-tank.

- The first Shadow Resonance should appear earlier in the fight, which will allow the Keleseth tank to have more orbs on him or her if Keleseth is empowered second instead of third. We didn't want which Blood Prince was empowered second to be a major element of the difficulty in the fight.

- We reduced the melee damage for the Princes by 10% for the 10 player difficulty. They were doing less damage than the 25 player before the hotfix, but this change lowers the damage further.

- Empowered Flames will now run out of power after shooting fewer firebolts in the 10 player difficulty. We did not change the initial impact damage.


Source

This is a confirmed hotfix. It pretty much removes the option to use a ranged tank, since aggro generation shouldn't be any problem now for the regular tanking classes, which was the only real benifit of having a ranged tanking class. Well, that, and maybe the ability to gather orbs more efficiently although in my opinion that's more dependant on the player than the class.

Edit: You didn't really need a ranged tanking class in the first place.

#48 Kuku

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 08:56 PM

Source

This is a confirmed hotfix. It pretty much removes the option to use a ranged tank, since aggro generation shouldn't be any problem now for the regular tanking classes, which was the only real benifit of having a ranged tanking class. Well, that, and maybe the ability to gather orbs more efficiently although in my opinion that's more dependant on the player than the class.

Edit: You didn't really need a ranged tanking class in the first place.


I'm really not sure where you reach the conclusion that this removes the option of using a ranged tank. If anything, this is an improvement for ranged tanks. Previously, ranged tanks had to worry about melee hits and survival issues if Keleseth was the second empowered mob. Both of these issues have been removed.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm a firm believer that no one should use a ranged tank on this fight. It's still a much higher risk than using a proper tank

I also don't see how you figure that this helps with aggro generation in any way for proper tanks. I was able to generate more than enough threat to have Keleseth stick to me while I spent the entire empowered phase and most of the other phases grabbing new nuclei. Threat was never a concern for proper tanks, though I could certainly see it being a concern for ranged tanks.

#49 Lanthon

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 09:25 PM

Thanks for posting this hotfix quote, Ashika. I agree that melee tanking and ranged tanking of Keleseth are both improved by this change, but that it makes more sense to melee tank him. Another result of this change is that having 1 tank grab both Valanar and Taladrim is more feasible in 10 man, bringing this fight in line with most other ICC 10 encounters where 2 tanks are mandated.

#50 Ashika

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 09:59 PM

The melee hits prevented regular tanks by actually standing in melee range in order to get the most out of their aggro generating abilities. Sure you could take the extra damage like a man, but that would only strain your healers (which on the 10 man version of the fight isn't really that desirable).

Like you said: there's no reason to use a ranged tank. Even when it has become easier to tank with a ranged class now then before. Sure, the option to use one is still there (and my phrasing was probably off, indicating that you couldn't), but why would you bother in the first place? Most likely you'll be bringing 3 tanks to the instance anyway when doing the 25 man version, and the 10 man version allows one of your tanks to tank 2 Princes at the same time.

Edit: Yes, you could probably try to use 2 tanks on the 25 man version, but I can't really comment on that since I just run 10 mans with my guild along with some 25 mans PUGs that usually don't make it past Saurfang.

#51 Ensipid

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 11:40 PM

Source

This is a confirmed hotfix. It pretty much removes the option to use a ranged tank, since aggro generation shouldn't be any problem now for the regular tanking classes, which was the only real benifit of having a ranged tanking class. Well, that, and maybe the ability to gather orbs more efficiently although in my opinion that's more dependant on the player than the class.

Edit: You didn't really need a ranged tanking class in the first place.


I don't see how that removes the possibility of a ranged tank. To be honest it makes it easier. Although any melees are usually due to the ranged tank moving to close to him.

In regards to mitigation, a meta speced warlock can get up to 41 % reduced spell damage and still provide 400 + spell power to the raid.

The fact that he starts at 1 hp allowing the warlock to spam execute abilities on the pull ensures a huge threat lead that you can ignore for the rest of the fight and concentrate on orbs.

However I'm curious how this will pan out on heroic, when I'm quite sure a larger health pool would be needed.

#52 Plea

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 07:14 AM

Has anyone tried intentionally allowing kinetic orbs land as a part of their strategy? I think we spent an entire night trying to find the perfect moment to let them land, and might have succeeded a few times. Not advocating anything of the sort, though.

#53 Lanthon

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 06:34 PM

What is unclear to me is whether they "bounce" or despawn upon landing. Sometimes when they land I've experienced a ping pong effect where I get knocked around multiple times, but this could be due to getting knocked close to Valanar. If they do explode and despawn when they land, and you're set on healing, I think it'd be worthwhile to let them land in 10. In 25 dps is pretty spread out and losing 1-2 dps on orbs is not that big of a deal.

#54 Jayde

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 07:29 PM

I have to agree with those saying the hotfix for melee hits helps ranged takes, not harms them.

We had zero problems using a Warlock tank, but had multiple single-digit wipes due to him running up to the Warlock and smashing him in the face for 60k. Without the risk of melee hits, ranged tanking should be pretty easy now.

We will likely go back to using a Warlock instead of a melee OT, as it seems to make the positioning easier in general and the tank can freely move around the room as needed.

#55 Allara

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 07:34 PM

I tanked Keleseth on 10 man last night as a survival hunter with Hawk Eye (41 yard range). It was extremely easy to autoshot every Nucleus in the room with minimal movement, and my health never dipped very low. In fact, once I'd gained a bit of a threat lead on Keleseth, I was able to spend most of my time DPSing the other bosses and even helping with Kenetic Bombs. The hotfix really made range tanking trivial -- the only thing you need to consider now is who can gather the Nuclei the easiest.

#56 Hungtar

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Posted 24 January 2010 - 01:06 AM

I tanked Keleseth on 10 man last night as a survival hunter with Hawk Eye (41 yard range). It was extremely easy to autoshot every Nucleus in the room with minimal movement, and my health never dipped very low. In fact, once I'd gained a bit of a threat lead on Keleseth, I was able to spend most of my time DPSing the other bosses and even helping with Kenetic Bombs. The hotfix really made range tanking trivial -- the only thing you need to consider now is who can gather the Nuclei the easiest.


We used other casters to tank Kaleseth so i didn't have a chance to test this, but have you tried using your pet to "pull" out of range Nuclei towards you? If that was possible it would even further reduce the required movement and allow for more dps time.

#57 milanxt

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Posted 24 January 2010 - 06:09 AM

The tuning on the 10man version seems way off. There were so many kinetic bombs spawning that in such a big room with so few people and depending on group makeup where you might not have much ranged at all it just seemed pretty unfeasible.

With myself being the only ranged assigned to kinetic orbs in our 10man, i found that while three orbs are active at once if i could send the oldest orb as high as possible when the third appeared then i could effectively ignore it. Over nine wipes and a kill the oldest orb never got anywhere near reaching the floor using that system. This was before any hotfix went live but it seemed to work well for me, only close call's were my own fault for getting greedy on dps time.

#58 mofidik

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Posted 24 January 2010 - 04:34 PM

To quote the great thinker John Cleese; "And now for something completely different."

I posted this on the holy paladin forums as it seemed most suited there but got very little feedback (none), so I figured I'd try here. On one of our 25man attempts we had a holy paladin who bubbled something for safety reasons and then targeted by an empowered fire orb, followed by blowing up all the melee. Has anyone else noticed the fire orb requiring a none-immune (possibly in a certain range, we weren't able to verify whether said paladin was potentionally too far away) target?

#59 Ja7us

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Posted 24 January 2010 - 06:33 PM

That actually doesn't sound like new behavior - a previous example of a boss doing just that would be Twins' conflag. If a mob has a spell that it targets at a specific person and that person goes immune (vanish, divine shield, etc) during the cast, it will hit a different target when the spell finishes. Generally this only occurs if the target was legal when the spell began and then activated the immunity during the cast time.

#60 Kuku

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 12:57 AM

That actually doesn't sound like new behavior - a previous example of a boss doing just that would be Twins' conflag. If a mob has a spell that it targets at a specific person and that person goes immune (vanish, divine shield, etc) during the cast, it will hit a different target when the spell finishes. Generally this only occurs if the target was legal when the spell began and then activated the immunity during the cast time.


The empowered fire orb doesn't have a cast time, as far as I know.




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