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Feral DPS Attack Cycles


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#21 Meddler

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 08:27 PM

Isn't shred better than mangle if you have the talent that improves shred? Why not shred -> rip cycle with enough mangles mixed in so that rip gets the bonus for its whole duration.

Oh, and I assume none of the bear or cat attacks are normalized?

Last time I ran a few numbers/checked other people's assumptions Mangle is ever so slightly better DPE than shred at reasonable AP levels assuming both are fully talented and have the best currently known idols. That's not accounting for the debuff or the difference in combo point generation. Both of these are also unfortunately well ahead of rake unless the target has an extremely high amount of armour.

Nothing normalised at present, no surprise given the pre set weapon speed which can be designed around.

Edit: Sharpening stones still work in feral forms? I was under the impression that was changed a while back when they removed hunters ranged attacks benefiting from sharpening stones on melee weapons - take it this is not the case?

#22 Zyla

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 08:35 PM

to be honest, I haven't used one since the swap, so I can't speak to its retention of usefulness.

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#23 snape

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 08:40 PM

Rake is still very good for me - the fixed damage is still well above the damage I get out of a 5 pt FB (this is my alt druid mind you - although I do have about 800 AP and I turned 60 yesterday). This is assuming that you get the full duration of Rake in, of course. As your crit improves though, 5 pt FB should be better than Rake I <think>.

#24 Torel

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 08:53 PM

With your profile, I would suggest the following:

1. Make sure you have a 3/3 natural shifter spec, 5/5 in the tier 1 +15% FB talent, and the FB book from UBRS.
2. Have lots of greater mana pots on you.
3. Use the rune of metamorphisis unless you have both DFT and KotS
4. Practice powershifting after combos so that you reliably see your energy going from 0 to 60 after a FB or shred.
5. Make sure you have at least 5% hit to avoid frustration in using power-shift/shred.

As far as sequence, given your crit, I would go for 4 or 5 CP from shreds based on if you get a crit on the 4th point. FB immedeatelly upon the required energy gain, dont bother letting energy build: the conversion ratio is poor. Don't use tiger's fury - at your atp levels it is a definate DPS decrease. Some suggest wolfshead helm as superior for this, but based on number crunching on a long fight you are probably slightly better off with SW, genesis, guise, or furors depending on what is available.

The 4 CP versus 5 cp option you may want to experiment with. I have gone to using 4 given similar gear as yours, due to missed opportunity when you get a crit with 4 cp up.

Use the rune fairly early in the fight so that it will be up agian. When the rune is activated, begin a shred/shift/shred sequence and do FB's when your combo points are at 4 or 5. After that, do shifts at much longer intervals, mainly after a FB. Use druid bar to watch your mana. Use a pot after every single cooldown. Obviously, innervate the healers or a mage - you won't get much out of it.

The group composition and buffs are critical. You obviously want BS up at all times. If alliance, make sure that might stays on the entire fight - it makes an obvious difference. You need to make sure wisdom and such are up also. I have not actually tested this directly to make sure it applies (it just occured to me), but if mageblood affects feral then obviously use that also.

As a target to shoot for, I suggest about 550 DPS given your gear level. As a warning, high latency will kill this method dead as a doornail. If that is the case, don't bother trying to powershift and just go all-out AP/crit/hit for maximum shred damage.

edit: Shred versus rip. At very high crit/ap values the sustained damage is very similar. FB can actually do slightly more damage and dosen't take up a critical debuff slot. The fully buffed FB is a better option for sustained raid DPS on a armour-debuffed mob given the options.

edit: I meant major mana pots obviously. I use greater for almost everything actually, but I am poor.

#25 Meddler

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 08:59 PM

Rake is still very good for me - the fixed damage is still well above the damage I get out of a 5 pt FB (this is my alt druid mind you - although I do have about 800 AP and I turned 60 yesterday). This is assuming that you get the full duration of Rake in, of course. As your crit improves though, 5 pt FB should be better than Rake I <think>.

Think you mean Rip there - which along with FB does now scale with AP and if debuff slots were not an issue will for most gear sets be more efficient than FB. Rake's the combo point generating direct damage/small DoT that alas no one bothers using much for good reason since it doesn't take very high AP levels for it to become inefficient.

#26 krucifix85

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 10:24 PM

I'd like to just re-iterate a few good points in this thread.

Option 1a: Close with Bite, you have 2/2 Blood Frenzy

if(numberCP < 4) Shred;
else FerociousBite;

--

Option 2a: Close with both, 2/2 Blood Frenzy

if(numberCP < 4) shred;
else if(number CP

4) FerociousBite;
else if(number CP
5) Rip;

Those 2 are the choices I'd take.
The first makes common sense to me, but it should be highlighted. Don't "waste" CP's. 4CP -> Finisher, -> Crit Shred, is alot better than 4CP -> Crit Shred -> Finisher.
Not sure at what AP levels a 5CP Bite > 5CP Rip, but that's for your own calculations. (Also, I'm unsure on the AP Scaling of both spells, anyone help me on that?)

Use the rune fairly early in the fight so that it will be up agian. When the rune is activated, begin a shred/shift/shred sequence and do FB's when your combo points are at 4 or 5. After that, do shifts at much longer intervals, mainly after a FB. Use druid bar to watch your mana. Use a pot after every single cooldown.

The Rune is an insane item, especially with the caster white attacks in between (normally hit for more than a cat form swing, as well). It's basically Cat form's Adrenaline Rush, on a 1 minute (?) shorter C/D. But if you have bad latency it won't be worth it. (Try it out next BWL run on Ebo or Nef, see if you can make it work well)

Shifting after an FB is very important. You will find a DPS increase if you do that, due to a "free" 20 or 40 energy.

Other than that, it's basically the normal, what you'd expect information:
Shred > *.
Ensure OoC is up at all times.
Don't use TF. (This whole post is aimed at druids with the same gear as OP)

So:
{Shred until you are 4 or 5cp
FB
Shapeshift}
repeat

with Rune Activated:
{{Shred
Shapeshift}
repeat until 4 or 5cp
FB
Shapeshift}
repeat

==

One thing i'd like to see if it was worth it is a little weapon found in Gnomeragan.
It's a 2h mace, ~15str, and has an "On Use:" of "Increase your attack speed by 50% for 30 seconds". From arall reports it has 3 chges before it runs out, has 0 cooldown, and is NOT unique.
Thoughts?
Edit: I guess the buff would only be active if you have the weapon equipped. So it wouldn't be worth it, losing the AP from a feral mace, for 50% more white dps.

edit:
http://www.wowhead.c...zLVhoZE0MsfbdtV
Pure DPS Spec, agree?

#27 Meddler

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 10:36 PM

Playing around with Tangedyn's cat calculator, which I've generally found to be very good, I've always got higher sustained dps levels from 5 point FBs than 4 points so I wouldn't necessarily proclaim 4 points was the way to go. While you do avoid wasting combo points on a crit you're also reducing the energy efficiency of the finisher in question.

On another note in terms of maximising dps - make sure that you're not using any more energy than necessary when using FB. The conversion of extra energy to damage is an atrociously inefficient one, far better to use that energy for anything else if you have the option - if you have enough energy to do something else and then bite do so, doesn't matter that it will assumedly waste combo points because it will still deliver better energy efficiency than FB's conversion.

#28 krucifix85

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 10:40 PM

Interesting call their Meddler, I thought a while ago I read that for the most efficient FB finisher usage, it went 3CP -> 4CP -> 5CP, in that order.

I was under the impression that while you get smaller values, it's more energy efficient to use the lower numbers. Has this changed with AP scaling FB now?

I'll see if I can find where I got that info from.

edit:Tangedyn's PHP Calc definitely indicates that FB-5 > FB-4 for DPS. I'll keep looking tho.

#29 Meddler

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 10:50 PM

I do recall seeing some claims along those lines a couple of months back too so would be most interested if you can track anything useful down. Issue reallyy depends how much faith you want to put in said calculator - just spent a little while playing around with absurd levels of crit and/or AP but can't duplicate any situation that favours a 4 point over a 5 point though the gap is admittedly narrow.

Has also just occured to me that the more frequently you're using a finisher the more often you're exposing yourself to the risk of it missing and therefore losing all the energy from it, making the 5 combo point versions yet more efficient on average. +hit gear can work to negate this as an issue of course.

Edit: Have also been trying to track down the AP scaling on FB/Rip since this has a substantial effect on which to use under ideal circumstances based on crit rate/AP. Seem to recall initial tests showed a different scaling rate for each of them but only link I can find on the Blizzard Euro forums claims 0.25 damage per AP for both which would indeed eventually favour FB over rip due to Natural weapons/feral aggression/possibility to crit. Anyone got some confirmed or at least evidence supported figures to hand?

Edit2: The amount of AP contribution to finishers also depended on the number of combo points being used as well from memory, will try and track that down too.

#30 Zyla

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 11:38 PM

This is why i use the Unending Life Set- Even if you miss, you don't lose any energy, you just hit it again!

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#31 Melthar

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 01:49 AM

-If you don't have improved shred and don't have a lot of attack power, but have the cat idol and Ferocity + Savage fury, use Claw and shred only on OOC procs (if applicable).

Even with high AP, (around 2.1-2.2k without any consumables in my case) without improved shred, claw > shred. The extra combo points make up for any slight efficencies gained with non improved shred v claw.


For those looking at Tangedyn's calculator, another good tool to play with is "Druid Stats" by "Dracmoore" I believe he posted a link on EJ a while back (and has reposted below). This uses similar calcs to Tangedyn's page, but takes glancing blows and similar into account.

FB scales at 0.15damage per AP, Rip at 0.24damage/AP (both x1.1 for natural weapons) From recollection I think it worked out to be somewhere over 50% crit before FB became better than rip on average.

In live, I rarely have a problem with rip being knocked off early, even if hunters are being stupid and spamming stings rip tends to stay around for a while.

Time any +AP trinkets (earthstrike, jom, etc) to coincide with any finishers, as they tend to scale better with AP than base skills. (shred with NW and a 40% crit rate would only be 0.2475 damage/AP vs .264 damage/AP for rip with NW)

Edit: correct spelling of Drac's name.

#32 Meddler

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 02:13 AM

FB scales at 0.15damage per AP, Rip at 0.24damage/AP (both x1.1 for natural weapons) From recollection I think it worked out to be somewhere over 50% crit before FB became better than rip on average.

That does match my recollection just after the patch came out of the tests being done on the test realms at the time. Feral agression and the amount of AC mitigation your target have will also tip the breaking point crit wise one way or the way on top of that plus the Mangle debuff should shift the balance substantially in Rip's favour come the expansion/content patch.

#33 krucifix85

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 02:27 AM

For the basic comparison of RIP vs FB:

Using the OP stats I got:
10% mitigation:
FB - Avg 1686.784943
RIP - 1545.72
FB on average (with the OP's gear) will hit for more.

at 15% mitigation:
FB - 1593.074669
RIP - 1545.72
FB still hits for more.

My calcs included the 15% FB talent. Natural Weapons. 5 extra energy being eaten on every FB.
Uses 0.24 as the AP scaler for RIP and 0.15 for FB.

Now you must also remember, that FB eats all your energy, RIP doesn't. That's not taken into account here, as my calcs only showed the pure figure's for which a 5CP finisher would hit.

Also, the Cat DPS Calculator ( http://tangedyn.275mb.com/cat-dps.php ) indicates that the OP will do more DPS using FB, than Rip.

Basically, i'm not sure where you got that 50% figure from Melthar, but it doesn't seem to add up.

#34 Meddler

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 03:01 AM

Using the OP stats I got:
10% mitigation:
FB - Avg 1686.784943


at 15% mitigation:
FB - 1593.074669


My calcs included the 15% FB talent. Natural Weapons. 5 extra energy being eaten on every FB.

Could I get some details on how you're calculating those values based off the OP values? Getting slightly different ones which is bothering me using the approach of:

FB
((AP*0.15 + FB base average)*Feral Agression*Natural Weapons

=(2123*0.15 + 817)*1.15*1.1
=1135*1.15*1.1
=1436 average pre crit on zero mitigation targets, so 1957 average assuming a 36.25% crit rate as specified. 1761 then on average incorporatin crit on a target with 10% AC mitigation.

Edit: Just realised I haven't got the 5 extra energy being eaten by FB in here which would make up some, but not all, of the difference.

Rip by contrast I get a similar though still slightly different value
(AP*0.24 + Rip base)*Natural Weapons
=(2123*0.24 +942)*1.1
=1597

Regarding the 50% crit figure quoted I'm assuming that was as a reference to the relationship of 0.15 and 0.24 disregarding the Feral agression bonus and the base damage both abilities have. At extremely high AP levels where that base damage that is able to crit in the case of FB is a insignificant proportion of the total damage I would expect 50% crit to be the break even point with the extra 15% FB damage talent, under present conditions this definitely isn't an issue though on low AC targets.

Edit: On the subject of 4 vrs 5 combo point FB - call me daft but just realised that the FB-4/FB-5 options on the dps calculator may actually refer to the rank of Ferocious Bite not the number of combo points which does open that issue up again if so.

Assuming that is what's actually represented there then http://tangedyn.pbwi... Fight Patterns is the best thing I've been able to find, based off the older Cat Simulator though which from memory wasn't quite as accurate (don't know details of why). Does still favour FB5 slightly especially once the risk of losing energy on a miss/converting extra energy more often is taken into account.

#35 krucifix85

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 03:26 AM

Sorry, I put the talents of NW and FA in before I did the AP scaling. (I tacked the AP scaling on afterwards, so the order was wrong).

Your figure's are correct, which tip the scales further in FB's favour at the OP gear level.

(~20% Mitigation, both Finishers deal the same damage, anything less, is in FB's favour)

#36 Melthar

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 04:38 AM

The 50% figure was probably my own calculations, which does not include the 15% to FB talents.

Checking against the cat sim, this looks to the case, with 1DPS difference at 50% crit/2200AP/5hit on 10% DR..

So without FA, rip's your best bet. with FA, FB takes over.

#37 Drac

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 07:14 AM

Theres a 1 sec GC on shifting. Whats fun is that if you can swap in a 2h, you can make it obey your 1 sec attack speed if you time it correctly when you shift out. As soon as you shift out you could swing a 3.80 instantly. I almost wonder if you could macro in a gear swap so i could swing, say a tuf when i shift out after the bite.

An interesting thought, but I found that when shifting back to cat, you wont start attacking again until the delay of your 2 hand weapon passes. So for instance, you shift out, swing TUF, shift back to cat, then you have to wait 3.8 seconds before you start auto attacking again, may not be worth the weapon swap.

Like everyone is mentioning, 5 shreds then FB is the optimal cycle, I don’t use rip because its not that much higher, and its not worth the debuff slot to me. FB will pass it in DPS when you get enough crit as well.

Im not sure if Blizzard intended for powershifting to increase DPS, but if you use it at least once after every combo, a Wolfshead helm will boost your DPS much more than southwind. The trick is, how much shifting can you do a fight before going oom? Fully raid buffed, using rune, and popping mana potions etc you can shift after every 3-4 combo points and probably last all of the patchwerk fight, maybe even shifting more frequently than that. Once you get the hang of powershifting you can try to time the shifts between energy ticks so you lose no energy, if you want to push your DPS to higher levels you’ll want to get as many shifts in as possible…..anyways…

If you cant tell, I like powershifting, I have spent a lot of time modeling it and studying Cat DPS, in fact Tangedyn got the idea on how to model blood frenzy off my formula, Tang then vastly simplified the horrid equation I used to model it, thanks to him/her? with the new simplified equation it was much easier to make changes to shifting DPS. If anyone is interested I compiled it all into a visual basic program that I have posted here before, its been updated a lot since then though, it basically lets you chose the gear/buff/talent/enchant/dps cycle (including powershifting) set-up you want and shows you what your DPS would be, among many other things.

If people want to see the code to edit I may be able to upload the source.

Download: http://www.savefile....projects/888616

#38 Mu

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 07:20 AM

Powershifting is but a pale shadow of what it once was...swiftshifting 60% reduction, wolfshead helm and no furor delays were pretty nice in the pre-1.8 days. Probably not worth even bothering with it now though. Natural shifter is hard to fit in a PVE feral build too.

I'd like to DPS on patchwerk, just to see what I'm capable of, despite the fact that I'd probably get wrecked even with damn near close to the best feral gear in the game (our mages and rogues are absurd). But we've had healer attendance issues lately so even though im pure feralol build right now I'd be stuck healing.

#39 GamingManiac

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 07:28 AM

We've thrown around the idea that if any DPS app can't beat Mu on patchwerk (or me for that matter, although my gear's nowhere as complete as Mu's), that app gets denied. More of a joke than a serious thing, Mu could and would beat our warlocks and maybe some lazy hunters so it's not necesssarily fair. :)

Ah well. Not like I'd ever get to DPS Patchwerk anytime soon. Lack of shamans lately + chain heal strat = ftl. We still one-shot them, but we need every shaman we got on pumping out those heals. All that enhancement gear sitting in my bags make me weep.

#40 Torel

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 07:47 AM

Now you must also remember, that FB eats all your energy, RIP doesn't. That's not taken into account here, as my calcs only showed the pure figure's for which a 5CP finisher would hit.

This is actually a plus when using FB for powershifting. You want to utilize 100% of your present energy, shift/shift, be back at 60 energy (or 80 if using wolfshead) within the 2-second global cooldown. Any residual energy is wasted. You can do this with rip also, you end up with a forced longer cycle as you wait for energy to drop to zero or something less than 5 due to shred/rip expendatures.

Has anyone actually done some calcs on 4-point versus 5-point FB recently assuming raid-buffed crit numbers? 36-39% crit is fairly standard for a fully buffed feral druid. You are approaching 2/5 probability of loosing a combo point if you shred agian on a 4-point stack. That equates to (ROUGHLY!!!) 2/5*300 damage loose over a long duration. Given that, it actually seems rather close either way. Hmm...

Here is some practical experience though with this strat: You really want to manage your mana. This means similar principles as managing the 5-second rule when healing. Go for long regen cycles when low to maximize your out-of-5secRule-time. In that respect, the 5-point FB strat may end up being overall more solid.

Powershifting is no-joke in terms of added DPS. It is like a mana-based adrenaline rush. You can expect to get between 50 and 90 extra sustained DPS from that tactic on a long fight depending on the strategy you employ and how efficient you are. In terms of short term burst DPS, it is incredible and can boost your output by much more than that. It is also a fantastic way to utilize gear like genesis with respect to converting mana to damage in what is a not-too inefficent manner.

Here is the catch though - it is very very timing sensitive. If you are not doing the 0-60 energy thing reliably each time you are not realizing the potential. It is really only useable when you can set up in a static position and get into a rythym with respect to the timings.




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