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Feral DPS Attack Cycles


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#41 Drac

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 08:03 AM

Has anyone actually done some calcs on 4-point versus 5-point FB recently assuming raid-buffed crit numbers? 36-39% crit is fairly standard for a fully buffed feral druid. You are approaching 2/5 probability of loosing a combo point if you shred agian on a 4-point stack. That equates to (ROUGHLY!!!) 2/5*300 damage loose over a long duration. Given that, it actually seems rather close either way. Hmm...

Sadly only 4-point rip, 5-point rip, and the 2 different ranks of Ferocious bite at 5 points...see the link I posted earliar. Heres some numbers based off of ideal feral gear (atiesh etc), buffed to obscene levels on alliance side with onyxia buff off that calculator:

2779 AP
45.8% crit
5% to hit
and using Rune of Meta

vs

Lvl 63 mob with
8.6% miss
8.6% dodge
10% armor reduction

Shred -> 5 point rip: 677.11
Shred -> 4 point rip: 677.97
Shred -> 5 point rip -> shift: 736-807.7
Shred -> 4 point rip -> shift: 753.99-849.35 dps (note dps is inflated because you shift more frequently with 4 points after a combo)
Shred -> 5 point FB (rank 5): 689.26
Shred -> 5 point FB (rank 5) -> shift: 751.56-819.25

Edit: These calculations include Omen procs, so are a little bit higher than what Tang's model would show

#42 darthgrimm

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 09:14 AM

THe whole : Is a feral druid a viable tank for HS dmg was a joke seeing that we had about 20 of those threads on these forums...

Some ppl didnt get it... ^^

#43 Boevis

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 02:17 PM

Rip will get knocked off on Patchwerk, let the Warlocks have their debuffs.

If you guys keep JoW on the mob, I'd say go with Wolfshead Helm, otherwise you're going to be spending so much time in Cat regenning mana that Southwind/Furors/PvP Helm beat out Wolfshead.

I've always been a fan of the 4 point finisher for both energy efficiency and maximizing combo points. With over 33% Crit, you'll average 4 combo points from 3 Shreds, and have 16 energy in remainder after the 3rd shred, making it ideal to FB after the next tic. The energy-Damage conversion with FB is pathetic, and I prefer wasting as little energy on it as possible.

When powershifting, tying a weaponswap macro to a TUF with Crusader and taking the free swing will give you more DPS than not doing it. Getting a hit for 826-955 with a chance to proc for +100 Str is well worth losing 2 auto attacks in catform (you already lose 1.5 + lag seconds switching back to catform, so the time cost of TUF is only <2.3 seconds.)

#44 Guest_alfredo_*

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 02:31 PM

If you guys keep JoW on the mob, I'd say go with Wolfshead Helm

Since a druid in cat form doesn't have a mana bar, JoW doesn't proc. :(

#45 krucifix85

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 09:51 PM

If you guys keep JoW on the mob, I'd say go with Wolfshead Helm

Since a druid in cat form doesn't have a mana bar, JoW doesn't proc. :(

On this point, i'd also like to note that BoW and Mage Blood Potion's (the zg craftable pot, that regens mana) don't work in feral forms either.

The best (and only?) way to improve your regen, would be to get the ZG Zanza (+50stam, +50spir) and a Gordok Green Grog, oh and the Argent Dawn Water (I doubt the BL spirit buff would stack with the ZG Zanza, and you'd get the Str / Agi one, anyway).

Basically, Spirit will enhance our feral regen, while mfs will not.
Well, this used to be the case when I roughly tested it a long time ago, if it's been changed, i'd be happy to be wrong.

edit:
Fantastic Calc Drac. I was using the old DSv1.0 yesterday for my testings. Tangedyn doesn't have your updated calc linked anywhere.
The amount of Burst DPS possible, is quite astounding. The number's are really amazing (Around 1000 burst DPS with decent, attainable gear).
Now to get a Rune of Metamorphisis for my alt... ><

#46 Meddler

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 10:34 PM

Does anyone have any experience with powershifting under a slight degree of lag? Due to my location (NZ) I'm typically looking at around 400ms or so and haven't bothered extensively testing such an approach personally on the assumption that the losses due to difficulties keeping the timing accurate enough to be efficient would be high enough to make it better to just stick to just a standard attack pattern.

Haven't had much luck the few times I've had opportunity/inclination to try powershifting under appropriate conditions - wondering whether anyone else under similar latency has had more luck/similar conclusions?

#47 krucifix85

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 10:55 PM

Next BWL try out Nef / Ebonroc (ask your tanks not to taunt the heal off each other, to extend the fight)

That is ofcourse if QED still do BWL for the little gems in there.

@Drac: Are you able to add to your Calc, a 3 and 4cp FB finisher? (for both r4,5)

#48 Torel

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Posted 02 November 2006 - 02:45 PM

Basically, Spirit will enhance our feral regen, while mfs will not.
Well, this used to be the case when I roughly tested it a long time ago, if it's been changed, i'd be happy to be wrong.

I am 100% sure that this used to be the case. There were some changes to the way mana regen was applied in one of the last 3 patches and my conclusion at the time via some testing was that mana/5 did seem to now have an effect.

HOWEVER, I probably need to carefully recheck this, and I encourage others to do the same. When I log on I'll do some test with and without my pure mana/5 items and report what I find.

#49 Lumine

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Posted 05 November 2006 - 09:24 AM

Ok, reguarding the whole "Power shifting" thing, I recently obtained Field Marshal and my guild lets me DPS in raids every now and then so that my grind didn't go 100% to waste since I already had mostly T2. Anyhow, I was wonder whether it would be better to use things such as my Gloves of Enforcement and maybe the AB shoulders over the FM set for the extra hit and crit, or would it be better to stick with the FM set for the extra mana for the shifting? I can easily pull top 10 depending on the fight and I've gotten in the top third on rasuvious before (My guild isn't greatly geared).

I'm not used to DPSing in raids because in my previous guild, you were frowned upon and laughed at so I'm just looking for some pointers in which gear to use IE swap out some dps gear for mana regen gear to keep shifting what ever, you get the point.

#50 blindworld

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Posted 05 November 2006 - 09:48 AM

With ferocious bite, each extra point of energy (with rank 5) = 2.7 damage before mitigation, which if compared to shred, (225% + 180), even without the 225% is very poor dpe. If you managed to get the extra 48 energy for whatever reason, that's still only 129.6 damage. Even if you had 100 energy when you FB, the FB bonus (65*2.7) wouldn't equal the flat 180 gain from shred.

If you end up with 83 energy after applying your cycle # of points, through unlucky strings of misses or whatever, it seems it'd be more beneficial to throw a 6th shred quick to get more use of the extra energy, and then couple it with the FB right after.

I'm not quite sure how to put it into any kind of formula though, 83 seems definate since you know you'll instantly have the energy for both attacks. 63 seems like it would depend on your energy tick timer, and I'm not quite sure how to create a forumla for it. If you end up between 75-83, it might even be more beneficial to claw->FB instead of the flat FB.

Plus I don't have a clue as to how AP factors into FB now. I haven't had a reason to look that deeply into feral since the change.

I know its rare, but those unlucky strings of misses do occur, and this might be a way to save it a bit.

#51 Boevis

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Posted 05 November 2006 - 09:52 PM

From the standpoint of an AQ guild, getting +9 Hit on excelent items isn't difficult at all, and we only need +6. Misses shouldn't be happening on standard bosses.

I remember hearing something like 14 AP = +1 Damage on finishers. Doesn't seem unreasonable, the current 2.5k = 178 damage * 10% NW = +196 damage for rip * 1.15 (FA) = +225 damage for FB.

#52 blindworld

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 01:46 AM

An omen of clarity proc on the last shred can have the same effect.

#53 Cluey

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 01:12 PM

From the standpoint of an AQ guild, getting +9 Hit on excelent items isn't difficult at all, and we only need +6. Misses shouldn't be happening on standard bosses.

I remember hearing something like 14 AP = +1 Damage on finishers. Doesn't seem unreasonable, the current 2.5k = 178 damage * 10% NW = +196 damage for rip * 1.15 (FA) = +225 damage for FB.

Actually to never miss as a druid against 63's you need 9% to miss.
I used to run MC as a feral druid and tested this quite extensively. It changed around the 1.10 patch, before that 6% was enough.
Initially I topped the damage as people were too timid and pulling threat got you lots of bad attention from the organisers, as a result nobody pushed it :(
After a few weeks the competition got stronger and the clear times came down, it was good :)

I used to do ZG and RAQ feral as well and did very well on damage, I respecced into a healbot for BWL/TAQ and haven't got to do DPS in a raid for a long time now.
The competition certainly wasn't first class, at least I assume it wasn't seeing as how belittled feral DPS is everywhere and now I have moved onto a more serious group I can see the potential of rogues but as a healbot again I have no idea how well I could compare.

I always went with shreds and rip on bosses which bled, trash was FB's although sometimes there would be no time for a finisher. We could use with a finisher which gave us some way of transferring combo points like S&D does.
If I got an OOC proc with reasonable energy I would use TF for three shreds with it up, not 100% on that being worth it but my damage was quite good compared to those I was running with.

#54 Maynard

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 03:51 PM

What's the exact maths behind Tiger's Fury being ineffective? I've got two druids, but admittedly little raid experience with either, and I was under the impression that you could do the following. I don't have the hardcore math skills of others so feel free to critique my theorycraft:

100 energy, hit Tiger's Fury
Tick 70 energy, tick immediately afterwards for 90 energy - if timed right.

This gives you 90 energy and slightly under 6 seconds of TF, so 130 energy all up. Enough for 2 shreds during TF, and 6 auto-attacks.

That's 6*40=240 damage from autoattacks, and 2.25*2*40=180 damage. So all up, you get 420 damage for 30 energy. 14 damage per energy (d.p.e.)

For Imp Shred, it would have to deal 14*48 = 672 damage to be equal to TF. Subtract the 180 flat modifier and you have 492 damage, fudge another 200 damage for the value of combo points for FB/Rip, divide that by the 2.25 modifier and you have ~129 autoattacks.

If (and that's a big 'if') my maths is correct, does that mean under ideal circumstances, a druid doing more than 129 unmitigated white DPS should never use TF over shred?

...And logging in on my 59 Druid, he's doing nearly that much white DPS even at his gear level. I think I understand the maths now. It's interesting though that, when he hits 60, a TF->Shred cycle may be marginally better.

#55 Meddler

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 01:04 AM

Unless you're in pure resto gear and trying to dps for some reason it's seldom worth considering Tiger Fury any time other than before a Ravage (minor exceptions when running towards a target and already on full energy or similar situations). Given it doesn't scale in the slightest the better your gear the bigger the gap between it and shred/Mangle soon.

#56 Boevis

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 01:54 AM

Catform is limited by Energy, TF costs energy and Doesn't scale. Early Endgame, it's effective, but by the time you've got DFT, HoBF (or MoUL), and other BWL/AQ20 gear, it's just not worth the energy.

Please, consider the following:
TF adds +40 damage for 6 seconds, I'll assume you have NW.
At a 1.0 Attack Speed this means it's adding (40*6*(1+crit%)*1.1) White Damage
If you wait until you have 66+ Energy before hitting TF, you can land 2 Shreds in your Time Limit. 2*(40*2.25*(1+crit%)*1.1)
If you have 30% Crit chance this means TF adds 343 White damage, and 257 Shred damage = 600 Damage = 20 Damage per Energy. If OOC procs and you get 3 Shreds in, TF increases to 24.3 DPE

At 48 Energy cost, Shred has to do an average of 960 damage to match TF's DPE. At 2000 AP, Shred has an average damage of ((((2000/14)+50)*2.25)+180)*1.1*1.3 = 878 damage (or 18.3 DPE). However, Shred also provides a combo point for your eventual Finisher, thus you need to increase it's DPE by 1/5 of your finishing moves DPE (With 2000 AP, FB is 40 DPE) So Shred is actually 26.3 DPE because of the combo point it adds.

Even with an OOC Proc, Shred wins out with a high AP.

(Im unable to check, but I assumed cat's average damage is 50 before the effects of AP, I am very likely wrong)

#57 Zyla

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 02:09 AM

i think its 61dps boevis, but i cant back that up with a citation at the moment.

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#58 Melthar

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 06:11 AM

55ish before NW so Zyla's pretty much spot on. :)

#59 Lord BEEF

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 11:56 PM

I'm really curious now to see what DPS we're capable of with the most recent change.

I'd love to see a calculator that shows three attack cycles:

1) Mangle until 5 cp, rip (Solo dps)

2) Mangle, shred until 5 cp, rip, then mangle (or maybe mangle then rip, not sure which would be better)

3) Shred to 5 cp and rip, assuming mangle debuff is constantly up from another druid

Essentially I'm curious to see the difference between how much dps a cat can do solo, standard raid, and raid where a bear is tanking.
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#60 yossarin

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 08:02 AM

I read somewhere that druids do not benefit from +hit gear, yet in the thread you guys assume it can be a significant help.

Second thing, once we are on druid dps topic, does any1 know if you can somehow reduce the glancing blows frequency?
Rogues/warriors get their +swords points, but druids cant really use anything similar, can they?




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