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Feral DPS Attack Cycles


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#81 Meddler

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 10:59 PM

I'd actually love to be able to pick up Feral Agression for the bonus to Demoralising Roar as well - it's a pretty hefty reduction in incoming damage for those times when you don't have a warrior to apply DS. Unfortunately as you say it's the usual deal of too much good stuff, particularly with Feline Swiftness now being an essential part of a bear focused build.

#82 krucifix85

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 11:51 PM

Most importantly, Ferocious bite empties your energy bar. This is a big, big, big, no-no in a long cat cycle. Every last energy point is precious and should if at all possible be spent on manglebuffed shreds.

Please read the previous posts in this thread. While I acknowledge draining your energy bar isn't great, when you are power shifting after each finisher, it makes very little difference in the end.

#83 Melthar

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 12:01 AM

2500 AP, 30% Crit, +10% NW (does this get applied to finishers? I forget)
5pt FB right now is ~1460 damage pre armor
5pt Rip right now is ~1230 damage and ignores armor
Rip is currently better vs 15+% DR mobs
Throw in Mangle and 5pt Rip ~1600 a definate improvement over FB

I don't know where you're getting those rip figures from unless you're using rank 5 rip for some reason.

Currently in live, 1419AP, Rip = 235/tick for 1410 damage. (this is with NW)
1699AP, rip = 247/tick with one or two ticks of 248 for about 1484 damage
or about 0.264 damage per AP.

Which matches the .24 before NW scaling quoted before.
Going up to 2500AP, gives you about 1695 damage at 283 a tick. (for 56 dpe)

#84 Boevis

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 02:45 AM

Krucifix - I included the talent, but as Melthar pointed out, I fail at knowing the AP-Damage conversion for our finishers. Why it's .24:1 (6/25) I don't know, that hardly makes any sense, but whatever.

2500 AP, 30% Crit, NW, FA
Rip = 1696, 282/tic
Mangled Rip = 2205, 367/tic (wow)
FB = 2113-2195 before armor

#85 Melthar

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 04:54 AM

Almost Boevis.. Except FB doesn't scale at 0.24, scales at closer to 0.15 before NW. (I believe 0.24 and 0.15 are the same rates at which rupture and evis scale, so this actually works in our favour since a large proportion of our "weapon damage" comes from AP instead, so our finishers actually scale with weapons whereas evis/rupture don't)

But with rank 5 FB, NW, FA, at 2.5k AP looking at 1470-1546 Damage range for 35 energy FBs before crits as far as I can tell.

#86 FinishHer

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 05:28 PM

I was searching Feral dps threads and this is the closest I managed to find for what I was looking for..

Basically I'm curious about raid DPS in feral, we can assume optimal gear or not. What kind of cycle produces the best dps in a raid situation? Also curious about how much difference there is between current gear available and BC gear for ferals, because currently I can only get about 1050-1100 AP self buffed and frankly a 0/41/10 build feels awfully weak to me as I tried to run around and grind to see what leveling would be like. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. :o
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#87 Lavode

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 05:49 PM

There isn't really anything much you can do wrong when grinding as deep feral. Sneak up on stuff and pounce or ravage it as your taste dictates, then spam mangle at it, rip at 5 points if whatever you are fighting is still at > 50% hp, otherwise bite it.
1000 ap isn't much tough, I run 1500 selfbuffed, 1700 with earthstrike.
tank kit clocks in at around 1250 ap in cat

1000 really should hurt things tough. Just spam mangle at it.

#88 Lord BEEF

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 06:13 PM

Someone posted that they got 3700 AP 31% crit in Kharazan with raid buffs but not potions. If not bullcrap that's pretty incredible.
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#89 Evert

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 07:22 PM

hmm, at 1500 AP selfbuffed I seem very very over powered in pvp. And I can grind stuff I wasnt able to before as 30/21 or full resto (namely those ghost bastards on that island off of Hillsbrad.

Also I would imagine that the cycle that you would use in a raid situation is whatever keeps mangle up while allowing the most shreds, than for the duration of the rip? Or if you have a mangle druid tanking.. Have him keep mangle up and spam shred?
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#90 ildon

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 07:31 PM

Is power shifting still viable in 2.0/at 70? It seems really clunky and the result of an oversight, and if I were a designer, while I'd recognize that it was a clever and skillful usage of game mechanics, I'd honestly want to either break it or make something else more attractive to dissuade people from using it.

Through new abilities and talents, does it appear Blizzard is going this route at all? Or are they just sort of ignoring it? The feral druid in my guild does not power shift, and he is still comptetitive with our lower-end rogues. When you consider power shifting, do you consider losing imp LotP on your party mates at all? Or do you think it's insignificant?

Edit: Just saw this:

Powershifting is but a pale shadow of what it once was...swiftshifting 60% reduction, wolfshead helm and no furor delays were pretty nice in the pre-1.8 days. Probably not worth even bothering with it now though. Natural shifter is hard to fit in a PVE feral build too.

I'd like to DPS on patchwerk, just to see what I'm capable of, despite the fact that I'd probably get wrecked even with damn near close to the best feral gear in the game (our mages and rogues are absurd). But we've had healer attendance issues lately so even though im pure feralol build right now I'd be stuck healing.

Is this still true?
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#91 Nitz

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 08:20 PM

Is power shifting still viable in 2.0/at 70? It seems really clunky and the result of an oversight, and if I were a designer, while I'd recognize that it was a clever and skillful usage of game mechanics, I'd honestly want to either break it or make something else more attractive to dissuade people from using it.

Well, I'm still using it quite frequently, so I guess it's not totally broken. :)

#92 Tyvi

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 09:05 PM

Is power shifting still viable in 2.0/at 70? It seems really clunky and the result of an oversight, and if I were a designer, while I'd recognize that it was a clever and skillful usage of game mechanics, I'd honestly want to either break it or make something else more attractive to dissuade people from using it. Through new abilities and talents, does it appear Blizzard is going this route at all? Or are they just sort of ignoring it?

I do not see a reason to "nerf" Powershifting at all. Shifting costs get higher as you level and in a full feral kit without Natural Shapeshifter you can't pull off Powershifting for a long time before going OOM. Rune of Metamorphosis has been normalized to reduce shifting costs by a flat 500 mana instead of removing the mana cost as well. Also, Ferals that Powershift have to adjust their gear accordingly and spec Natural Shapeshifter for maximum efficiency.
Oddly enough Feral T4 and T5 is actually providing more Int, so instead of nerfing it Blizzard seems to be actually encouraging this behaviour (or they are completely oblivious to the side effects of giving Feral T4/T5 the utility to emergency heal better with itemized Int but I really doubt this).

The feral druid in my guild does not power shift, and he is still comptetitive with our lower-end rogues. When you consider power shifting, do you consider losing imp LotP on your party mates at all? Or do you think it's insignificant?

Said Feral Druid will probably not see a big DPS increase with the gear he uses to be competetive with your lower-end Rogues. My guess is that he could probably fit in 5-6 shifts a 40 energy per mana bar whic h is nice but not game breaking.

EDIT: Lavode, you forgot to include your talent build in your CTProfiles so your Cat AP ingame and on the profile differ quite a bit. And eh, anyone else noticed CTProfiles going totally bollocks? I got no clue why it is giving (Night Elf?) Druids a 10ish MP5 in their Feral profile with zero caster gear equipped.

#93 ildon

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 10:29 PM

Ctprofiles stats got very broken when they switched it to 2.0. It's slowly getting better.

Like I said, from a design standpoint, power shifting just seems "clunky". It's not intuitive/logical at all, really, that switching out of and back into cat form would *increase* your DPS. It just seems like the type of thing Blizzard would adjust other aspects until it was no longer optimal. I guess if the mana is really that limiting, that's the "fix".

It's not a big deal. Just sort of an odd musing I had on my lunch break.

Btw, your feral gear is almost identical to my guildmate's, heh.
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#94 Anias

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Posted 01 January 2007 - 10:34 PM

Power shifting is still very much usable, and in fact with the limitted consumable nonsense from blizzard it is likely required to keep up with the joneses (since it lets you use mana potions instead of teas et al)

You can macro it to be, somewhat, less painful with /cancelaura
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#95 Boevis

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 12:35 AM

Assuming optimal situation with Pots and Group members, I see no reason why an optimal geared druid can't break 700 DPS on Patchwerk, especially on Horde (Unleashed Rage)

#96 Lavode

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 12:39 AM

Of course it is. Those are the only choices worth using, near enough. There are upgrades possible, but.. not very many.and I am mostly focused on bear. I am incidentially not a fan of poweshifting. My group looses the aura and I loose the option of throwing heals / resses and even innervates (shifting out and leaving myself with no mana to shift back is the first tabu of the feral druid) around if I push it. (It is possible to do some emergency healing, even in that gear, if you have your pot and rune cooldowns unused.)

I could have sworn I did include talents last time I updated that.. Going to have to redo them, I suppose.

#97 Vosk

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 12:47 AM

Someone posted that they got 3700 AP 31% crit in Kharazan with raid buffs but not potions. If not bullcrap that's pretty incredible.

That seems a little high for no potions, but I think it'll be possible.

I ended up at 3200 with the best gear I could find. A few karazhan epics, mostly blues from level 70ish instances/quests. ~30% crit as well. Was slightly amusing to see how much my damage jumped when I went from bleed immune trash to bleed vulnerable boss. Spamming mangle sure does get pretty boring on those endless ghost packs though.
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#98 Exewut

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 02:59 AM

I was searching Feral dps threads and this is the closest I managed to find for what I was looking for..

Basically I'm curious about raid DPS in feral, we can assume optimal gear or not. What kind of cycle produces the best dps in a raid situation? Also curious about how much difference there is between current gear available and BC gear for ferals, because currently I can only get about 1050-1100 AP self buffed and frankly a 0/41/10 build feels awfully weak to me as I tried to run around and grind to see what leveling would be like. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. :o

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[e] how do I make a link to 1 post in a topic somewhere? Instead of only linking to the page number?
[e2] Thanks shalas!

#99 Melthar

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 03:13 AM

I was searching Feral dps threads and this is the closest I managed to find for what I was looking for..

Basically I'm curious about raid DPS in feral, we can assume optimal gear or not. What kind of cycle produces the best dps in a raid situation? Also curious about how much difference there is between current gear available and BC gear for ferals, because currently I can only get about 1050-1100 AP self buffed and frankly a 0/41/10 build feels awfully weak to me as I tried to run around and grind to see what leveling would be like. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. :o

Currently the optimum cycle is basically mangle to 5, then rip.
At 70 however it's hard to come up with an optimal cycle when you throw blood frenzy and OoC into the mix. These will make your combo point generation within a given time period vary wildly, but the main rule is to make sure your shreds are getting the mangle buff. Losing the mangle debuff for 1 shred will hurt far more than losing it for a tick or two of rip.. If you can get another druid to keep mangle up however (either a bear or cat) then you're set.

#100 Shalas

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 04:09 AM

[e] how do I make a link to 1 post in a topic somewhere? Instead of only linking to the page number?

The posted time/date is a link to the post.




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