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Surviving the Pre-TBC Guild Depression


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#21 Vwtifuljoe

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 08:43 AM

If i werent in the place i am now, i would be all for farming content and not caring about progression.

my guild is working on saph atm, one of two guilds on our server to be attempting him and one of four guild to have made any serious progression (read: beyond anub and raz) in naxx. these same 4 guilds are also the only guilds killing cthun. needless to say, we dont have many guilds in the extreme endgame raiding scene.

what my server does have is a number of guilds who can farm BWL and get up to the Twin Emps in AQ. if i were not in my current guild, i would be all for farming content, getting the best of what i can get, then pvping or farming gold. I see alot of ppl standing around IF with tier 3 bracers and belt, but nothing more than that. and they will never get anything beyond it either.

my guild is cutting edge, for our server. i do stand around IF and can pick out all the hunters in Strikers cause they're my guildmates, with exceptions for a few players. i am super happy with where im at, gear wise, progression wise, and guild wise. what i dont get is seeing guilds who have yet to clear the trash to the Twin Emps talk about progressing in Naxx. Simply put, the time frame just isnt there to make any significant progression. January, maybe Febuary if the xpan gets delayed, and everyone is going to be in the Outlands, never again to set foot in BWL, AQ, or Naxx.

im not saying "TBC is coming out, your gear will be useless, stop all progression". but i do advocate some sense of being realisitc. for that guild that just killed the Twin Emps, just focus on Cthun. you may get him down before TBC, and with luck, Ouro too. Focus your energies where they will make the greatest impact. for some, that may be killing KT. or Cthun. or Nef. or hell, even Rag.

in short - figure out what you, and by extension your guild, want before TBC

on a side note - i do see more and more ppl who have quit the game come back and want to get BoP items, ranging from ZG rep items all the way to the Claymore of Unholy Might. *shrug*

#22 Guest_Aloxy_*

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 09:27 AM

We kinda managed to survive longer then 2-3 other guilds on our server so we could recruit some of their old core players and are actually stronger now then before. But its a constant battle for survival. This is nothing new tho, guild leading for me has been mostly fighting attrition since day one. It's alot easier now when we are a bit higher up on the foodchain. When the january news came I could see three options: Let the raiding slowly die / heavy recruiting / stop raiding. I really dont like option 1 and leaned towards 3 for a while, but got some motivation from other players and we recruited.

#23 Tel

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 10:00 AM

Our guild hit a bit of a crisis earlier, but we seem to be actively past it now and progressing again. Basically our solution was a harsh one, but seems to have been effective.

Target the players that are saying 'well i cba to raid, theres no point till expansion' and remove them. Replace with people wanting 'to kill KT before expansion'. We went from struggling with attendance for gothik, to making significant progress on 4HM albeit with 3 new mage trialists, 2 priest, 1 druid, 1 rogue, 2 warriors, etc :)

We're lucky in that we're one of few guilds that are holding it together on our server. A couple of major raid guilds just collapsed due to this depression and we're cashing in a little on that.

#24 jilanea

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 10:35 AM

We're on early Aq40 as a guild, but what we did to improve out attendance was to set our sights higher rather than lower and really push. In our guild at least people didn't want to just sit round beating up the same boring things with 30 people online we told our guild we were going to finish AQ40 and they responded. We had to change a few members but nothing drastic.

#25 Hamlet

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 01:32 PM

Our guild leader has stopped the attrition by declaring openly, that those that "fade" out now, will certainly be the first to fall prey to the 25 man downsizing later on. Certainly not the nicest way to go about this issue, but undoubtley effective. Those who will stay through pre TBC depression will form a stable core for future TBC content.

I think you basically have to do this. It's really not all that different from any other point in a guild's progression--you need to maintain a full raid team. People who go on extended breaks have to get replaced, so coming back in isn't necessarily easy. In general, your core group to start any zone is the enthusiastic group of people who helped you work through the last one. Just don't let people assume Naxx->TBC would somehow be any different.

#26 Hamlet

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 01:33 PM

we have daily group hugs.

That reminds me, for activities to improve guild cohesion, I highly recommend:

http://www.isketch.net

with the WoW word list and a Vent channel.

This got us through January-May when our server crashed every single day at raid time.


For current guild cohesion, we just make fun of each other nonstop, and nobody is in beta so we have nothing else to do.

iSketch doesn't preclude making fun of people. You just have to look out for the opportunities for true gems:
http://sigilguild.ne.../warlockdps.JPG

#27 Hamlet

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 01:58 PM

Something I've been seeing recently which seems related to this: a sudden appearance of cross-server apps to our guild. As of a few weeks ago, we'd never seen one at all, now we've had a few in the past few days. Is this happening to other guilds who wouldn't have guessed themselves to be well-known enough to stand out to a person who's choosing amongst the entire serverwide crop of guilds?

#28 Bubba

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 02:04 PM

Something I've been seeing recently which seems related to this: a sudden appearance of cross-server apps to our guild. As of a few weeks ago, we'd never seen one at all, now we've had a few in the past few days. Is this happening to other guilds who wouldn't have guessed themselves to be well-known enough to stand out to a person who's choosing amongst the entire serverwide crop of guilds?

Yup. Not sure how exactly guilds pop up on the radar, but we've seen a rise in transfer apps recently as well.

As for the whole pre-TBC malaise, I think it's slightly self-propagating. I don't think that many guilds would be all depressed if there werent 6,430 threads like this one prescribing doom and gloom for the next couple of months.

#29 Maskirovka

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 02:47 PM

Nice post Elog, I agree with your conclusions. There's kind of a watershed effect happening. Certain guilds and certain people are falling one way or the other and it's pretty interesting to see.

This tore up our guild weeks ago. Our guild was a bunch of small groups playing together...we never had our own identity, really. I was kind of blind to it before things started to unravel, but it became quite plain later. Lots of people transferred to play with friends, or left temporarily to raid with other guilds till TBC is out.

I see it as a blessing. It means we get to see who actually feels like the guild is home and who was just there for the raids and items. Who will want to come back for TBC? Who is on their alt still playing with the guild except for raid time? Who's gonna ask the guild bank for shadow pots to use with some other guild on Loatheb...and how will they ask? Interesting stuff for sure...seeing it all play out.

Personally, I've always liked raiding for the challenge and all, but the laughs I had while raiding and the nights where I couldn't wipe the smile off my face were always the reason keeping me coming back. I always took screenshots of guild/raid chat or w/e to post on our site (http://www.manic-guild.com)...this is the stuff I'll always love to remember about this game the most, not killing bosses. Point is, a lot of the people who left never enjoyed raiding for the same reasons...they couldn't see past "omg progression gogo" and see all the great people in the guild trying to have fun together. I'm not sorry to see them go.

Sure it sucks to not raid after doing it nightly for soooooo long, but for me this game is always fun with the right people, wether it's lvling, raiding, pvp, or whatever. My 47 gnome warlock can't wait to go get juiced in AV trying to conflag people at 51. Would I ever have lvl'd it by myself? Not in a million years, but it's been incredibly fun because of who I'm doing it with.

So that's the blessing in disguise. No raiding for a while, but ending up with a much tighter and more like-minded group for the xpac. I'll take that trade any day.

#30 Glass

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 03:07 PM

I don't buy the whole "the people that stay now are an indication of who will be valuable in tbc". TBC will change everything, the way the game is played, the incentives, the manpower, the reward system, everything. People sticking it out now or leaving will have little if anything to do with what happens when people start hitting the 68-70 timeframe.

Remember being in that family guild for your first 40 or so levels? Yeah it had a huge impact on the current end game didn't it? Same thing with tbc. The game is going to start over. The "end game" guilds of today are not going to be the end game guilds of post-tbc, even if they retain the same guild name.

#31 Drauk

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 03:13 PM

I don't buy the whole "the people that stay now are an indication of who will be valuable in tbc". TBC will change everything, the way the game is played, the incentives, the manpower, the reward system, everything. People sticking it out now or leaving will have little if anything to do with what happens when people start hitting the 68-70 timeframe.

There is some baseline qualities that makes good guild member. Caring for other guildies and the guild as a whole is one of them.
When you see that somebody just don't give a damn about the guild or people with whom he has played for 1.5 years - you don't want to see this kind of people in your guild. No matter what kinda of raid game awaits us.

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#32 Torel

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 03:17 PM

This tore up our guild weeks ago. Our guild was a bunch of small groups playing together...we never had our own identity, really. I was kind of blind to it before things started to unravel, but it became quite plain later. Lots of people transferred to play with friends, or left temporarily to raid with other guilds till TBC is out.

We have seen the exact same issue. We were a rebuild guild from the server woes of several months ago. We ended up with a very competent group that was blazing through content - with absolutely no core identity. Lots of transfers from lots of locations. Therefore, between a performance slump, pre-BC woes, and some growing pains, we went into a self-defeating downspin of attendance which led to serious morale problems.

The point: Make sure that you develop a guild culture. Make sure you have most of your people there for skill/content progression and not only loot. Do your best to assemble a group that actually likes each other. You can glue any group together for a while. If you have incredible leadership, they can pull the group through lots of stuff through pure energy. However, the only surefire way to make a guild last is through having the people connect and build a liking for each other. Not everyone has to like each other, but you must have a critical mass.

#33 Glass

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 03:38 PM

There is some baseline qualities that makes good guild member. Caring for other guildies and the guild as a whole is one of them.
When you see that somebody just don't give a damn about the guild or people with whom he has played for 1.5 years - you don't want to see this kind of people in your guild. No matter what kinda of raid game awaits us.

I don't know. I have a hard time blaming people that have 100% attendance over a year of raiding getting frustrated with 32 people showing up on raid night repeatedly, cutting thier losses and taking a break. These people are the ones that broke thier backs to get through the content that is now on farm status and I think they probably deserve a break from it, especially when the people that need gear aren't interested in raiding because the xpac is too close.

The people that broke thier backs on the old content are going to do it in tbc, they just won't be doing it with 20+ people that are interested in one thing.


The problem are not the few people that "don't give a damn". You're better off without them. The problem is where the people that "don't give a damn" leave the people that do want to continue. At this point recruiting and training new people means you are going to pretty much break even as far as progression goes. It's a catch 22 that you really can't blame anyone for.

Had there not been so much info about the itemization so early we may not have this problem. But the reality (whether we like it or not) is that alot of the raiding public is in it for the gear, which there's just way too much info about betawise. It may not be the majority of raiders in it just for gear, but the number that are, unfortunately, are more than enough to cause a big dent in many guild's progression.

#34 Maskirovka

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 03:39 PM

However, the only surefire way to make a guild last is through having the people connect and build a liking for each other. Not everyone has to like each other...

Yea this is what I was trying to say without knowing it. It's also possibly the most difficult thing to do...ever. Mostly IMO it happens by luck, having those couple of people that somehow glue people together without really doing it on purpose. You know the ones...if they get burned out or are down, everyone else notices and feels down, too. In our situation, these people got burned out and everyone could feel it. Even though nobody quit trying, there was just this air of "i give up" and it spread around quickly.

I have a ton to say about these issues, but it's just a post I don't feel like writing...not that I have time to do it anyway. Basically, you can see what happens if this type of thing happens to your guild, but no matter how much I explain or write, none of it will really matter except that advice at the top of this post. Connecting your members to each other, giving them an identity, and making them feel at home has to be #1. Even if that home has a bit of peeling paint and some water damage in the basement, and that asshole big brother who has the room you really want is stealing your toys, you can still find a way to have fun times as a family in it, right? Otherwise, you'll never really have anything...you'll just be a bunch of random people who killed some stuff together one time.

#35 Bekah

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 03:59 PM

Something I've been seeing recently which seems related to this: a sudden appearance of cross-server apps to our guild. As of a few weeks ago, we'd never seen one at all, now we've had a few in the past few days. Is this happening to other guilds who wouldn't have guessed themselves to be well-known enough to stand out to a person who's choosing amongst the entire server wide crop of guilds?

We've had an influx of cross server apps.... coming home.

Oh we've always had a trickle of cross server apps (Our recruitment folks are good at fetching them and cross server blood has kept us alive) but in the last week we've had a ton new apps all who are coming back to Skywall after rerolling alliance on another server after the horde top guild crashed and burned 9 months ago.... now their alliance guild on another server crashed out and we've got a handful of them looking to come back to skywall- alliance style. We've also picked up one of our warriors who left server right after server transfers opened looking for something new and better... and didn't find what he was looking for. It's kinda wierd to be truthful, but not alltogether bad (we were drying up on apps for a short bit and now have a windfall)

Cross server apps seem to find us though... I never know exactly how or why they pick Skywall, but our officers occasionally joke that eventually we'll have brought enough new blood to Skywall to create our own rival guild. I suspect some of them find us through places like this, some of them find us on RnD, some of them find us through word of mouth. An officer had a friend who wanted to transfer, gave him our name... he told his warrior friend about us. He came as well.

Where you find one cross server app- you usually find 2-3 others willing to follow along.
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#36 Valarauko

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 04:32 PM

It don't matter. I'll be all around in the Outlands - I'll be everywhere. Wherever you can look - wherever there's a roll, so pubbie people can loot, I'll be there. Wherever there's a mob beatin' up a tank, I'll be there. I'll be in the way priests Fear when they're mad. I'll be in the way orcs laugh when they're bored and they know the pull is ready, and when the people are lootin' the stuff they kill and PvPin' in the gear they loot - I'll be there, too.

I lol'd muchly.

On a more serious note, perhaps this is my chance to bring up a question that's been on my mind for awhile. Surely there are some players like me, that spread their raiding efforts across several characters, who have a good attitude and mindset, who know every raid encounter in the game with the exception of the last few bosses in Naxx, and who theorycraft like it's going out of style. We may not have the best gear, we may not even have anything past t2, but that doesn't mean we don't know our s@#$. We're more or less blocked from recruitment in the Naxx+ guilds at this point because of the simple equation gear = experience + knowledge + dedication. But that equation isn't -always- true.

Maybe this is the point in time where some of us can get chances to find solid guild homes for TBC and further down the line. "Vanilla WoW" loot is at its lowest importance ever due to the incoming level 61 and above gear. Have we reached a moment where the quality of the person behind the screen is significantly more important than the (current) quality of the character?

No, this isn't intended to be a 'recruit me plz gief epix' post. I'm just interested in opinions, as I'm somewhat deciding whether to play WoW at all pre-TBC dependent on whether or not it looks like I have a shot in a guild that has C'thun and below on farm. There's just no real point in farming MC and BWL with people who are still learning them when I've seen those encounters a thousand and one times. Not to be mean, it's just not a productive or enjoyable use of my available raiding time.

Thoughts / comments / beatdowns?

#37 Oaken

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 05:50 PM

That being said, it does seem like guilds that don't have a chance at getting KT down pre-expansion are taking it easy until the expansion. This isn't necessarily a bad thing for every guild, especially given how much burnout AQ40 caused. There's less loot drama too, since nobody cares about this level 60 Tier 3 junk anymore. ;)

I think the delay has actually given some guilds a brief respite on being able to finish Naxxramas. That, coupled with patch 1.13 which will give us the new 41 point talent trees gives me renewed hope that my guild can actually get Kel'Thuzud down before the expansion. On the previous schedule it just wasn't going to happen. But toss another 5% health on your tanks and give them devastate, up your mage dps with the new talent trees, etc., etc. and Naxxaramas is going to get a lot easier. So we're ploughing ahead as before, with maybe a renewed lease on life pre-xp.

#38 Valarauko

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 05:57 PM

And I guess as a follow-up on my earlier question: despite all the concern about people dropping off from high end raiding guilds through burnout or discouragement due to incoming TBC, are there -really- any Naxx guilds that are hurting for raiders at this point? Where they hit a progression night and they have 35, 38 raiders on, and they're really needing new blood?

Somehow I doubt that it's very common.

#39 Bekah

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 06:00 PM

And I guess as a follow-up on my earlier question: despite all the concern about people dropping off from high end raiding guilds through burnout or discouragement due to incoming TBC, are there -really- any Naxx guilds that are hurting for raiders at this point? Where they hit a progression night and they have 35, 38 raiders on, and they're really needing new blood?

Somehow I doubt that it's very common.

Yes. Yes it happens, and I think it's more common than some would like to believe.
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#40 Taikero

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 06:02 PM

And I guess as a follow-up on my earlier question: despite all the concern about people dropping off from high end raiding guilds through burnout or discouragement due to incoming TBC, are there -really- any Naxx guilds that are hurting for raiders at this point? Where they hit a progression night and they have 35, 38 raiders on, and they're really needing new blood?

Somehow I doubt that it's very common.

It happens to us probably once a week, except we only get 30 on, sometimes even less.

Yes, we're small for a Naxx guild.




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