Jump to content


Photo

Surviving the Pre-TBC Guild Depression


  • Please log in to reply
56 replies to this topic

#41 Hamlet

Hamlet

    Mike Tyson

  • • Guide Author
  • 11,540 posts

Posted 01 November 2006 - 06:04 PM

And I guess as a follow-up on my earlier question: despite all the concern about people dropping off from high end raiding guilds through burnout or discouragement due to incoming TBC, are there -really- any Naxx guilds that are hurting for raiders at this point? Where they hit a progression night and they have 35, 38 raiders on, and they're really needing new blood?

Somehow I doubt that it's very common.

From what I gather, it's all over the place.

#42 Artaxz

Artaxz

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 144 posts

Posted 01 November 2006 - 06:06 PM

It has been happening to us as well. 60+ on T, Thu (the clear 9 bosses nights), while we have 45? on for the new/hard content days.

However, I believe much of this was due to the anticipated BC date of late Nov. With the announcement of a Jan release, we did have a more solid raid to take out Loatheb on Sun. A small sample to be sure, but I am once again hopeful for a cleared Naxx before BC release.

#43 Valarauko

Valarauko

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 36 posts

Posted 01 November 2006 - 06:10 PM

So...

Anyone looking for a raider? I have a few 60's lying around, and (call me strange) tbh I don't really care what class I play in a raiding situation. I've played main tank, dps, support, and healer in most encounters through Nef. Past that on specific classes, but I'm comfortable with everything but Warlock. I've leveled a lock but never raided with him.

Again, if this is the wrong place to be even asking this question, tell me to hush... I wouldn't be asking at all if it weren't for the apparent dearth of capable and knowledgeable players in some of these guilds that I've respected and looked up to for a long time.

#44 Maskirovka

Maskirovka

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 105 posts

Posted 01 November 2006 - 06:20 PM

Tough one, there are a lot of points to be made about that here. I don't want to derail this, but it seems to fit.

I think for most guilds, there will be a lot more people asked to play more than one character on a regular basis. Keeping your guild smallish for 25 mans will mean some nights suffer from attendance in a certain class if people are continued to be restricted to one char only. Also, if blizz continues to make fights where coordination and strategy matter more than the gear, that flexibility will be that much more important.

I've always believed people who are skilled at multiple classes tend to be the best players. Sure there are exceptions, but the fact that my main is a mage and I have a warrior alt who's tanked most of BWL means I have a really good feel for threat, positioning, kiting, etc...but I've never played a healer.

As someone who has led raids in the past and will probably do it in TBC, I'll be rolling a healer just to gain that different perspective. Having played a mage for 2 years, even now just rolling a warlock alt has changed my perception of how they do damage drastically.

Experience with many classes would help a strategist or raid leader a ton, but to answer your question, I'd personally value you as a skilled player of multiple classes. Though, staying loyal to your class, perfecting your skills with it, and maxing out your gear also helps raids a lot. As a leader, you have to value people who are amazingly good at doing their thing, you just have to know what they're capable of so you can assign tasks well. Playing multiple classes can give you that ability.

You said it yourself though, spreading your efforts across several chars means none of them have the gear to satisfy recruiters. but bleh, i've seen ppl in T2 outdps AQ/Naxx geared people on a regular basis. I can be #1 over maexxna's fang rogues on my alt warrior. So yeah, the player matters more than the gear sometimes, but not in all situations. I'd recruit someone like you, as long as you weren't trying to raid with 3-4 chars >.>

What does that have to do with this thread? IMO it means these are the people you want to keep around (or recruit more of) if your guild is falling apart because they'll give you the flexibility you need in TBC.

#45 Bury

Bury

    Super Macho Man

  • Allied Members
  • 7,595 posts

Posted 01 November 2006 - 06:29 PM

And I guess as a follow-up on my earlier question: despite all the concern about people dropping off from high end raiding guilds through burnout or discouragement due to incoming TBC, are there -really- any Naxx guilds that are hurting for raiders at this point? Where they hit a progression night and they have 35, 38 raiders on, and they're really needing new blood?

Somehow I doubt that it's very common.

Yes. My guild cancelled Naxx 3 days out of 6 days last week, and when we did do hard content, we had to bring friends/unguilded/new people to Ouro, C'Thun, and Naxx. We killed C'Thun with 5 people who had never seen the fight, one druid who had never trained riding skill and didn't have a mount. We killed Patchwerk with two rogues, one of which had never seen the fight and had one piece of Bloodfang. We have cancelled at least one raid each week for the last three weeks.

We have been server-first on a release day server since molten core, and we are actively recruiting:
http://dp.hybridferr...ewforum.php?f=7 (9 Naxx bosses down gogo)

I know the second-highest guild (Black Phoenix) had attendance shortages over the weekend, and a fairly static raid group that a lot of my friends are in (Late Night Raiders) is having attendance problems that it hasn't experienced in a year. Every raid group that I know of personally is having attendance problems.

That's my perspective :)

#46 Bury

Bury

    Super Macho Man

  • Allied Members
  • 7,595 posts

Posted 01 November 2006 - 06:34 PM

I think for most guilds, there will be a lot more people asked to play more than one character on a regular basis. Keeping your guild smallish for 25 mans will mean some nights suffer from attendance in a certain class if people are continued to be restricted to one char only. Also, if blizz continues to make fights where coordination and strategy matter more than the gear, that flexibility will be that much more important.

I've always believed people who are skilled at multiple classes tend to be the best players. Sure there are exceptions, but the fact that my main is a mage and I have a warrior alt who's tanked most of BWL means I have a really good feel for threat, positioning, kiting, etc...but I've never played a healer.

I see where you are coming from, and I have a feeling that many guilds will have to rethink their alt policy. For example, my guild never brings alts to progression raids, period. Yet we've called a raid due to lack of hunters to tranq Gluth, and my hunter is in 7/8 Dragonstalker.

Having said that, diluting loot that you receive amongst 2+ alts can and will retard your progress on "gear check" fights. In beta, we haven't seen a single raid, so anything that we say about future raid encounters is rather speculative.

#47 Judia

Judia

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 300 posts

Posted 01 November 2006 - 06:42 PM

And I guess as a follow-up on my earlier question: despite all the concern about people dropping off from high end raiding guilds through burnout or discouragement due to incoming TBC, are there -really- any Naxx guilds that are hurting for raiders at this point? Where they hit a progression night and they have 35, 38 raiders on, and they're really needing new blood?

Somehow I doubt that it's very common.

We had 35 people on for Gluth last week, this week we didnt even manage to clear patchwerk.
We raid 4 nights a week, clearing AQ40 (sans-Viscidous) and Spiderwing, Noth and Razuveous. And have killed Patchwerk/Grobbulous 4 times. Id say we are a fairly solid "mid-tier" raid group, and we are hurting to get more than 35 people on for AQ, or a full 40 for Naxx, even on the spider wing which is "farm". We had several hours of raid time spare this week with nothing to kill because we only had 10 healers about and patchwerk didnt look realistic.

Of the 3 guids above us, one is on KT, one imploded and its core joined the third who were about to implode but now managed to progress with 10-15 new players which made up the core of the guild which fell to pieces. Oh and we havent had any serious applicants of appropriate gear level for about 3 months bar 2/3 people we managed to pick up from the guild that imploded.

Basically everything said about TBC burnout is true on our server, and alot of the guilds are folding together to find those 40 people who are willign to play out the last 2 months.
To err is human

#48 Maskirovka

Maskirovka

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 105 posts

Posted 01 November 2006 - 06:43 PM

Well, we can hope that there will be fewer gear check fights. I understand why they're there, but they suck. They've already said they're planning to phase out resist fights...so we can just hope they stick to that. The game would be a lot more fun overall and have a higher retention rate on raiders if people could play with multiple classes so things don't get so monotonous over time. Redesigning encounters is good for business and for raiders.

Having yearly expansions will also help this somewhat if they continue to raise the level cap and have similar jumps in gear quality every 10 levels so people can start over if they want without "wasting" all their gear.

#49 Valarauko

Valarauko

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 36 posts

Posted 01 November 2006 - 06:44 PM

Well then, to be quite blunt, and to avoid a Kaubel-flex-smashing due to thread derail ™...

If what I've said so far in this thread seems of interest to you, pm me.

Thus shall end my attempt at self-advertisement for the day.

<3 to the EJ community, back to lurking for me.


edit: Still no pm's. I are sad panda. This are sad thread.

#50 TL-Seria

TL-Seria

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 316 posts

Posted 01 November 2006 - 06:47 PM

It's pretty strange, last week was the 5th week of 4h trying but we don't have any problems yet.

I think this hit the guilds hardest that only have half a dozen bosses down in Naxx when the items were linked that basically showed that either you have full T3 or your stuff doesn't matter in BC anymore. Since these guilds had a rather low %age of their equp on T3 level, many figured that it might not be worth it to go on.
Those that were deeper into Naxx probably had most members think that they could get Full T3 before TBC, hence they'd be set itemwise for the expansion.

#51 Bury

Bury

    Super Macho Man

  • Allied Members
  • 7,595 posts

Posted 01 November 2006 - 06:54 PM

Well, we can hope that there will be fewer gear check fights. I understand why they're there, but they suck. They've already said they're planning to phase out resist fights...so we can just hope they stick to that. The game would be a lot more fun overall and have a higher retention rate on raiders if people could play with multiple classes so things don't get so monotonous over time. Redesigning encounters is good for business and for raiders.

Having yearly expansions will also help this somewhat if they continue to raise the level cap and have similar jumps in gear quality every 10 levels so people can start over if they want without "wasting" all their gear.

If there are no more resist fights, then the guy who itemizes boe greens in TBC is out of touch with future instance content. There are some absolutely excellent resist drops "of XXX Protection" that basically replace old non-epic resist items.

#52 xkmonkey

xkmonkey

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 94 posts

Posted 01 November 2006 - 07:00 PM

I would say that farming nights are sometimes more difficult to fill out the raid than are nights on new content for us. It's not a terrible attitude to have for a lot of people, but unfortunately not having the best people around to farm old bosses means we get less time on new content.

#53 discofiend

discofiend

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 138 posts

Posted 01 November 2006 - 07:01 PM

A lot of this is an issue with two things, in my opinion - AQ/Naxx design, and Raid IDs/Lockouts. Note that I'm writing this with respect to the mid-tier guilds who dont have more than 9 or 10 bosses down in Naxx and quite possibly aren't killing c'thun/ouro yet (or lolviscidus). They're falling apart the fastest on my server. They've farmed BWL and it's boring, and they know they wont be killing kel or even 4h before expansion. The fun is seeping out of the game for many people, including myself. Besides the obvious "we've done pretty much everything already" reason, here's my take on the source of fun-drain.


AQ/Naxx design:
Boss fights are fairly well thought out, but they have some issues that make them a real chore.

In AQ, farming for huhu NR gear sucked. Now you can buy a lot of the gear, but that costs $$$ which = more farming. This is exacerbated by the horrendous cash drops from bosses. It takes a while before you make money in AQ, and the post-huhu trash is ridiculously monotonous. It may be easy, but it's boring. Add insult to injury when it's on free for all loot and you have 2 people making 13 gold per clear in grey drops and 0 gold for the healers who cant get to the corpses, and there's a recipe for resenting the whole bloody place. Also, prepatch run back to c'thun... well, we all know what that was like.

In Naxx, necessary farming and consumables logistics only got worse. So many fights are enrage timed that extra farming (or spending gold) for dps items, or mana regen pots, or flasks, or resist pots really takes a lot of the fun out. I'm sure the people responsible for passing out dozens of flasks and stoneshield pots think that's really fun. It's also really fun for the rest of the raid to stand around and wait for last minute distributions. Or the people who have to run ZG to get the buff if you do that pre-loatheb. Or the people who have to manage Zandalar coins if you use those pots. And let me tell you how much i love scarlett monestary atm. Again, the number of bosses means that you're going to take a long time before you start making money on naxx in a per week basis, and that's just repair costs. any consumable costs are additional time sinks you need to spend farming for.

One thing they did really nice in MC (cant believe i'm about to complement an MC design decision) is to have the mats for a lot of the fire gear (lava core, firey core, corehound leather, dark iron, essence of fire) obtained along the way. About the only thing i farmed for was elemental fire while learning rag.

Raid Timers/IDs:
Some of the most fun I've had recently is going with some of my old friends who are now with another guild on their MC runs. I can only do this because our guild doesnt run MC anymore. I think it's pretty horrible game design to effectively trap you into the same people every single week, or even within a week. Let me have my "raid ID" exist as a temporary thing, and when i want to clear it and join a diff raid ID, LET ME DO IT. Just dont let me loot a boss after the first kill for the week. Let me go hang out with my friends on random BWL/MC/AQ runs when they need a hand or (gasp) just want the company.

I've heard "BC is going to be a great excuse for me to go casual" from people up and down my friends list. People seem to want to have fun again, and after the chore that raiding's become (rather, farming for raiding in addition to certain wonderful encounters themselves like cthun trash and heigan guantlet and 5 packs of the exact same stuff before patch), I think i'd like to start having fun again too. Right now raiding is a way to spend time with friends i've made over the past couple years. Before it was both that and also fun on its own. Hopefully it can move back to the latter.

#54 Kalroth

Kalroth

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 835 posts

Posted 01 November 2006 - 07:36 PM

And I guess as a follow-up on my earlier question: despite all the concern about people dropping off from high end raiding guilds through burnout or discouragement due to incoming TBC, are there -really- any Naxx guilds that are hurting for raiders at this point? Where they hit a progression night and they have 35, 38 raiders on, and they're really needing new blood?

Somehow I doubt that it's very common.

*raises his hand*

This is exactly what we're experiencing at the moment. We've gone from having a regular 42-46 people online on raid nights to 34-36 for the last week and just barely reaching 40 for the last month. I highly doubt it's a coincidence considering the recent official TBC release date.

We've been around since EU retail launch last year and we've had downtime before, but those has always been seasonal; mainly christmas and summer holidays.

#55 Calantus

Calantus

    Custom User Title

  • Members
  • 804 posts

Posted 01 November 2006 - 07:37 PM

I had an experience like that yesterday. I logged onto an old character to talk to someone and I get a raid invite from my old guild. They did it just to talk to me for a bit, but I saw them in Naxx and decided I'd get attuned and come along for kicks and giggles. It's the kind of thing I'd never done before, play in an instance twice in the same reset. It was pretty fun to play with them again and to do some of the same encounters I'd been doing on my warlock but from a priest's perspective. Unfortunately for our healers, I also gained new perspective on how some of the encounters are actually much easier to heal than they make out. Oops. :P

Frankly it's made me reconsider some of my earlier stances in regards to alts and maybe even wonder if the idea of mains and alts should become antiquated. There's been many times where I've thought to myself "if only my priest was on this server" (xfers aren't open here yet) when we're short on priests or the ones online are suffering from brain freeze that night, or when some smartass new priest decided he knows better than a warlock how to heal despite having no clue. Same thing for my brother's geared up warrior when one of the main tanks isn't on. I'm thinking that a player with 2-3 classes up his sleave could be pretty valuable, especially if blizzard continues with token systems as they make gearing up so much easier.

#56 Irshish

Irshish

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 20 posts

Posted 01 November 2006 - 08:24 PM

Note that I'm writing this with respect to the mid-tier guilds who dont have more than 9 or 10 bosses down in Naxx and quite possibly aren't killing c'thun/ouro yet (or lolviscidus). They're falling apart the fastest on my server. They've farmed BWL and it's boring, and they know they wont be killing kel or even 4h before expansion. The fun is seeping out of the game for many people, including myself.

I guess my raid is an oddball or it also might be different for us because we aren't hitting consumable dependent fights. (Horde side Sargeras.) The xpac coming out has lit a fire under our butts. I was worried that we would fall apart after we killed Nef (about a month ago) since TBC was coming soon. Instead people have gotten excited about seeing as much as we can before the xpac comes out. I've seen more dedication out of a number of people than in the history of our raid. More than just the usual hardcore people are asking to rearrange the schedule for more progression time. I am suprised and excited. We've also have always had attendence problems on progression time and those are starting to be our fullest raid days.

Being a raid well behind (and an alliance of guilds at that) we've always had problems recruiting, but recently we've picked up people here and there who just want to see bosses past MC/start-of-BWL lately. And I continue to ask Class Leaders and Vets to recruit more people like that to fluff the ranks incase we do start to see attendence drop off because of TBC expections.

Maybe it won't last, but thought I'd throw out a positive story as opposed to the doom and gloom.

#57 Maskirovka

Maskirovka

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 105 posts

Posted 01 November 2006 - 08:53 PM

I don't think there can be "oddball" raids. It's all about who's in the guilds, their connections to other people, etc. I don't think you can label any guild based on how far they've progressed and make any predictions about them regarding this subject.

My guild ran out of steam at Thaddius with heigan down at the end of Sept. C'thun died in June, Ouro in July shortly after Naxx came out. We weren't top progress, but we certainly weren't doing bad at all. I'm confident we would've gotten KT down by January with np at all if we had kept going. We barely got any attempts on Thaddius, Gluth died only a week or two before people started bleeding away. There was a "grass is greener" mentality, and 2's and 3's, little grps of friends started jumping ship to other servers/guilds/etc for it, some temporarily (once it was clear we were screwed), some for good.

These situations are way too complex to start labeling guilds based on progression...it can happen to anyone.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users