Jump to content


Photo

The Survival Hunter in 3.3


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
56 replies to this topic

#21 Toshamaru

Toshamaru

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 5 posts

Posted 04 February 2010 - 08:37 AM

Personally, I would find dropping aimed shot to be a huge DPS loss, especially since you are moving in pretty much all of the fights in ICC particularly. I suppose in the first 4 bosses there is minimal moving overall in the fight, but you'd really have to try hard not to move much at all. Having that extra instant is so so so handy I find, especially in fights like professor putricide! Also good for a nice quick MD, couple of instants and the tank has a good amount of threat to go on; though this is most certainly an afterthought.


dropping aimed shot for focused fire is clever i think. you loose the 6% damage advantage when using multi, but what you gain seems more powerful - 1% for anything. the only thing i would change in this spec: go for max TotH instead of resourcefulness. everytime i use the onlinecalculation it seems to be a dps-loss over other things, an in a raid situation i often delay BA because ES is (nearly) ready and so minimum 2secs are wasted.

#22 Rivkah

Rivkah

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 839 posts

Posted 04 February 2010 - 09:01 AM

The point of the 6/14/51 spec is generally to reallocate the points in thrill of the hunt that are generally excess (since 1-2 pts give pretty good return) into dps talents. It's meant for raiders that have full raid buffs with high JoW uptimes where mana is not a serious concern. If you are investing 3 points in thrill of the hunt I expect you'd find more dps gain going for hunting party, at least at high gear levels where you get fairly good dps gain per talent point.

With regards to resourcefulness, the first point is usually worth a noticable amount of dps (since you don't run into the LnL cooldown overlap issues very much with 1 pt). The other two are worth less but it's really a judgement call. Every point in resourcefulness will amount to some dps gain since at least some of your black arrows will go off earlier, whereas thrill of the hunt will only gain you dps if you're finding yourself running low on mana. So you really just need to weigh your investment based on your personal raid experience. This is why the specs listed are only sample specs, there is a lot of legitimate variation in survival specs and you have to judge for yourself which talents fit your situation best.

#23 Esoth

Esoth

    Bald Bull

  • • Guide Author
  • 2,437 posts

Posted 04 February 2010 - 07:15 PM

The fact that the SS glyph is more favorable than the ES glyph at higher gear levels really isn't about the crit cap, it is about gear stats as a whole scaling. The question is basically, when does increasing my steady shot damage by 10% outweigh increasing my chance to crit with explosive shot by 4%? It should be obvious these two options would not progress exactly the same as each other. Total steady shot damage is here going to be increased by crit, AP, and ArP (and maybe even haste, depending). The value of an explosive shot crit over a non-crit is really only going to change based on AP (including that which you get from agility).

With gear from early in this expansion I think we all saw that explosive shot had a much higher starting point so that glyph was favorable. But with all of your stats increasing that situation changes. It would also be a disingenuous to try to justify one of these glyphs as being better than another based on a single stat, be it crit or ArP. Those certainly play a factor, but there are several variables involved here.



On a different topic, I've found that volley continues to be strong, if not stronger than MM, with a SV build. There are two obvious reasons why this would be the case, despite not having the barrage talent like a MM hunter would. First, SV simply has higher crit and AP. Secondly, expose weakness procs from volley damage.

#24 DoomSpirit

DoomSpirit

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 26 posts

Posted 06 February 2010 - 08:12 PM

Accuracy is also useful on two-hands weapons.

#25 MizarAlcor

MizarAlcor

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 167 posts

Posted 09 February 2010 - 05:18 PM

For all specs of hunter you shouldn't really value haste over crit, AP, or Armpen. Those three stats will give you more dps than haste would, since it only affects autoshot and SS. Stacking haste affects, however, provides more of a return then using them seperatly. IE save Beserking, rapidfire, and haste pot for when BL is popped. Although SS will be well below the GCD, it is still better because you get off more autoshots. I like to sit at 1.60-1.62second cast of SS before raid buffs myself. With a ret/boomkin that will drop it to roughly 1.58second cast, and with roughly 45%-50% uptime on IaotH, you're right near the 1.50 mark.


If I remember correctly, a calculation was done a while back showing that stacking RF and Bloodlust will actually provide a marginal increase over triggering them separately. Basically, the calculation showed that the additional frequency gain of autoshots outweigh the benefit gained from ensuring that steady shots will always be on GCD during the duration of the haste effects (RF and BL). Of course, the drawback to this situation is that you're basically putting all your eggs into one basket. If there occurs a situation which forces you to detract from ideal standstill situation during the haste procs (have to move out of fire, change targets, vile gas, etc), the RF-BL stacking will be hurt more significantly than triggering them separately.

And for gearing purposes, as mentioned before, haste takes the lowest priority among all our DPS-contributing stats. BiS equip sets tend to include the least amount of haste possible (even the lichking's Xbow's stat was changed from giving haste to ArP), and some top hunters can even manage with 0 haste rating.

#26 Maevemmy

Maevemmy

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 4 posts

Posted 10 February 2010 - 03:34 PM

I don't know that this is already posted but shouldn't you always have 3/3 points in trap mastery now (3.3.2) becuase of the deathbringer fight. Since whenever I raid ICC pug or guild hunters are always on blood beast duty and the improved duration of frost trap is nice to help kite the beasts

#27 MizarAlcor

MizarAlcor

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 167 posts

Posted 10 February 2010 - 04:21 PM

The base duration for frost trap is 30 seconds, extendable with the talent for up to 39 seconds. If the spawned blood beasts aren't dead by 30 seconds (ranged DPS aren't switching, etc), another 9 seconds won't really help much. That is why MM hunters can uphold the Beasts duty as effectively as SV hunters, except probably lack of snap aggro on more than one beast (first beast can be snapped by Distracting SHot) gained through LnL proc.

EDIT : As pointed out by Kraxis below, correcting the error on additional trap duration (3 to 9 seconds).

#28 KraxisSingular

KraxisSingular

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 1,085 posts

Posted 10 February 2010 - 05:40 PM

Trap Mastery grants 30% duration buff, not just 10%. However I agree that 30 seconds should be enough. The only issue I have found is the beasts leaving the trap area. For that I also drop a Snake Trap, thus I know the beast I focus will be slowed for as long as I need it to (while helping the other ranged with their beasts).

#29 Maevemmy

Maevemmy

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 4 posts

Posted 10 February 2010 - 05:47 PM

So then trap mastery is not as important as putting points into improved stings if someone has the t9 2piece bounus?

#30 Rivkah

Rivkah

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 839 posts

Posted 10 February 2010 - 06:13 PM

There is never a debate about trap mastery versus improved stings. Due to the way the survival talents are configured, you need the 3 points from trap mastery to get to the next tier of talents. The only other useful talent you can take is hawk eye, which is situational. Trap mastery isn't worth a lot of dps however, so if you do find a use for hawk eye (on some fights like princes, dreamwalker and putricide it can be useful) it's not a big problem to take it over trap mastery. According to my math one extra explosive shot fired on a 5 minute fight is enough to make up the dps lost from trap mastery.

#31 Maevemmy

Maevemmy

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 4 posts

Posted 10 February 2010 - 06:38 PM

But if I were to put points into improved stings then isn't there another tier that I have to go down? I would just check but I go a little slow on my itouch

#32 Saltyone

Saltyone

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 25 posts

Posted 10 February 2010 - 07:39 PM

Regarding where to move those 3/3 Imp Stings talents when dropping 2xT9 for 4xT10:

3/5 IAotH is a solid alternative for SV, as the increased shot frequency improves the uptime of 2xT10 proc and the foregone 30% buff to SrS damage is not as pronounced when SrS crits are not possible. Auto-Shots are our #2 damage dealer, buffed by ArP and Haste on our gear and it enables the Glyph of the Hawk if you are one who believes Glyph of Explosive Shot is losing value at higher crit levels or that Steady Shot is not used as often in raid combat as it is in simulations.

Other places to move 3 Imp. Stings talents to:
- Resourcefulness – Reduces CD of Black Arrow by 2 seconds per talent, marginally increasing LnL procs and BA DoT damage, but only if you really use it on CD.
- Expose Weakness 2/3 is enough for ~95% uptime. Many hunters dropped to 1/3 with 2xT9 allowing SrS to crit. Check the spreadsheet per talent to see what that 1/3->2/3 delta is worth.
- Hunting Party – 1% agi per point which is still considerable with raid buffs and procs like Death’s Verdict, Vrykul from DBW

If you're going for 4xT10, it's worth using a mouseover serpent sting macro and getting better at multi-dotting in place of some steady shots, as each active sting scales the proc rate of the bonus by 5%. Glyphed SrS is 7 ticks, and the 5% proc rate means you may get a proc over the duration of 3 Serpent Stings on a single target. Your mileage may vary when fishing for procs, but even without T9 or Imp Stings, a glyphed SrS has a higher DPET than Steady Shot if it runs its full duration, from a raw DPS point of view.

#33 MizarAlcor

MizarAlcor

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 167 posts

Posted 10 February 2010 - 11:00 PM

Trap Mastery grants 30% duration buff, not just 10%. However I agree that 30 seconds should be enough. The only issue I have found is the beasts leaving the trap area. For that I also drop a Snake Trap, thus I know the beast I focus will be slowed for as long as I need it to (while helping the other ranged with their beasts).


Thanks for pointing out the error, Felandra. I tend to refrain from putting down snake trap during Saurfang's fight though. It was confirmed in one of the hunter threads that beasts hitting snakes may provide Saurfang with additional BP. This might not happen every time though (usually only when the beasts are rooted instead of snared), but due to occasional glitches that can occur when an NPC is forced to aggro someone at ranged position (hitting the nearest melee target instead, Putricide's volatile ooze case, etc.), I prefer to take the safer way.


Regarding where to move those 3/3 Imp Stings talents when dropping 2xT9 for 4xT10 ...

To add to Saltyone's suggestion, there is also another alternative : the rising 6/14/51 build. Just like the other 2 hunter specs, Focused Fire - Spell - World of Warcraft is actually a very powerful talent and scales very good with gear. However, for Surv especially, the price to obtain it is a little steep, so take this spec only when you don't have to provide replenishment yourself and you are absolutely sure that you won't have any mana problems (due to low ToTH, Multishot is more mana-expensive than Aimed).

#34 KraxisSingular

KraxisSingular

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 1,085 posts

Posted 10 February 2010 - 11:42 PM

To add to Saltyone's suggestion, there is also another alternative : the rising 6/14/51 build. Just like the other 2 hunter specs, Focused Fire - Spell - World of Warcraft is actually a very powerful talent and scales very good with gear. However, for Surv especially, the price to obtain it is a little steep, so take this spec only when you don't have to provide replenishment yourself and you are absolutely sure that you won't have any mana problems (due to low ToTH, Multishot is more mana-expensive than Aimed).


That build isn't exactly rising, it has long been a contender for top Surv DPS, I remember all the way back in early Ulduar it being nodded at (with a Raptor pet).
But that spec is indeed sacrificing a lot. I view it as MM's little brother. It can't match the best MM specs, but it has exactly the same requirements. That is, low mobility requirement, perfect JoW uptime, and no target switching. And it utterly sucks for 10man where MM at least sometimes work (shorter fights means that RR might just be enough).

But of course, every man to himself. I just don't think the rather limited DPS gains are worth the losses in other areas.

#35 Juneko

Juneko

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 33 posts

Posted 13 February 2010 - 06:23 PM

Something I have been trying to decide on is when it is best to use rapid fire and call of the wild. The easiest thing to do is hit it during heroism, but heroism is only a 30% boost to our pet and auto shots with rapid fire up. An alternative is hitting it in kill shot range, giving you 3 kill shots with a huge increase in ap.

#36 sefren

sefren

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 17 posts

Posted 14 February 2010 - 04:12 AM

A good time to pop CDs it at the very beginning of the fight right as all of your trinkets (DBW and DV in my case) have their procs up. Waiting for hero is a great time also but doesn't necessarily give a great line up with the icds on trinkets which in my opinion are greater than hero. Also, if using DV/DBW as in my case their procs don't overlap often throughout the fight as they do in the beginning so you rarely get that perfect alignment but in the first few secs of a fight.

#37 KraxisSingular

KraxisSingular

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 1,085 posts

Posted 14 February 2010 - 10:28 PM

A good time to pop CDs it at the very beginning of the fight right as all of your trinkets (DBW and DV in my case) have their procs up. Waiting for hero is a great time also but doesn't necessarily give a great line up with the icds on trinkets which in my opinion are greater than hero. Also, if using DV/DBW as in my case their procs don't overlap often throughout the fight as they do in the beginning so you rarely get that perfect alignment but in the first few secs of a fight.


Quite agree. I have DC/DV and Greatness, both of those obviously proc almost at once. Coupled with Rapid Fire and CotW the power is rather considerable. Also, fights like Putri tends to get dragged on long enough for the abilities to come off CD again (at an important time no less). And fights like Saurfang really points towards an early pop with ranged dealing with adds, and the fact that it is considerably better to get to his soft enrage with low blood power.

#38 Kriki4

Kriki4

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 13 March 2010 - 04:28 PM

I would also like to ask if Glyph of Aimed Shot is usable instead of Glyph of Explosive Shot. I personally think that if your cooldown on Aimed Shot is less it will imrpove your dps more than 4% crit in Exp Shot which is already specced to crit alot

#39 Rivkah

Rivkah

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 839 posts

Posted 13 March 2010 - 07:18 PM

I would also like to ask if Glyph of Aimed Shot is usable instead of Glyph of Explosive Shot. I personally think that if your cooldown on Aimed Shot is less it will imrpove your dps more than 4% crit in Exp Shot which is already specced to crit alot


I'm not able to get aimed shot to spreadsheet competitively with other glyphs (steady, serpent, kill shot) even at very high ArPen levels. It's possible there may be some cases you could find where it could come out superior but I'm not sure what the conditions for it would be. I think the issue is that in any situation where aimed shot would gain enough ground from ArPen on gear the value of serpent goes up due to the saved GCDs for steady, and obviously steady and kill shot both gain a lot from ArPen. Aimed will also never be first priority on the shot list either which means it often will lose the value of a reduced cooldown. So although it might be better than explosive shot at some gear levels, there are other glyphs that will perform better than it.

#40 MizarAlcor

MizarAlcor

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 167 posts

Posted 14 March 2010 - 08:28 AM

I'm not able to get aimed shot to spreadsheet competitively with other glyphs (steady, serpent, kill shot) even at very high ArPen levels. It's possible there may be some cases you could find where it could come out superior but I'm not sure what the conditions for it would be. I think the issue is that in any situation where aimed shot would gain enough ground from ArPen on gear the value of serpent goes up due to the saved GCDs for steady, and obviously steady and kill shot both gain a lot from ArPen. Aimed will also never be first priority on the shot list either which means it often will lose the value of a reduced cooldown. So although it might be better than explosive shot at some gear levels, there are other glyphs that will perform better than it.


Adding to what Rivkah has said, even for MM, either one of the CD-reducing glyphs (Glyph of CS and Glyph of AiS) will only show its performance on par with the other glyph choices only when the respective shot is put on top of the shot priority system. To compare with SV, there will be no situation or ArP level in which Aimed Shot will take priority over Explosive Shot (and Blizzard won't really allow it to happen either, I presume), and as such the CD reducing effect of Glyph of AiS won't be effective. It's probably going to allow you to slip one more Aimed Shot over a 6-min fight, a benefit that can be easily surpassed by another aforementioned glyph choices as SV.

This is similar to what happened with Resourcefulness talent, where taking 3/3 Resourcefulness generally turns out to be a minor DPS increase compared to going from 0/3 to 1/3 to 2/3 Resourcefulness, and as such the talent point is generally better to be utilized elsewhere (not always the case though). This is caused by the fact that reducing the CD of BA, which is usually lower in the priority system, won't necessarily allow you to shoot out many more BAs as expected once you go lower than a certain CD duration, due to cooldown clash with other higher-priority shots.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users