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The Survival Hunter in 3.3


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#41 badboy2409

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 08:31 AM

I'm playing around with the 6/14/51 spec and don't mind it except for teh fact that it doesn't have Aimed shot. I tried playing with it and dont see any movement I can make to do this without totally messing up the spec it seems. Am I forced into using Multi Shot in this spec or has someone else found a way?

#42 MizarAlcor

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 10:35 AM

I'm playing around with the 6/14/51 spec and don't mind it except for teh fact that it doesn't have Aimed shot. I tried playing with it and dont see any movement I can make to do this without totally messing up the spec it seems. Am I forced into using Multi Shot in this spec or has someone else found a way?


Well, as you can see, there is no other way to spec it and still be able to get Aimed Shot. The 51 pt in Survival is mandatory.

For the remaining 20 points, of course you can always try to shift around a little bit to get Aimed Shot, but no matter what it will almost always end up lower in theoretical standstill DPS than the spec with Focused Fire (and therefore, no Aimed Shot). In fact, Focused Fire is the main reason why 6/14/51 exists, and among all the 6 points invested into BM, the point invested in Focused Fire will be the one that will give you the largest DPS per point. On the other hand, you can't try get 2/2 Focused Fire either due to how 1/2 GfTT, Mortal Shots, and Careful Aim are all crucial talents.

Actually, losing Aimed Shot in 6/14/51 is not a really bad deal. It is a theoretical BiS DPS talent build designed on spreadsheet, and as such it is based on ideal standstill fight. With this kind of fights, the benefit of Aimed over Multi is diminished slightly, and also the role of Steady and Auto shots are magnified, and as such the benefit of Imp. Iaoth talent is also elevated. With proper positioning and excellent mastery of fight mechanics, you shouldn't have many difference between Aimed and Multi's usage on a given fight.

It's just however, when you reach the gear level where 6/14/51 gives you better DPS than the other cookie-cutter SV spec, 0/15/56, the MM spec 7/57/7 will almost surely give you a better theoretical DPS return if all you care is about theoretical highest DPS.

#43 Celawe

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 10:24 PM

I don't find that trap mastery was very beneficial, especially over the loss of aimed shot. I've been finding at higher and higher gear levels, survival has been trumping mm hunters, especially on high mobility fights, this often times comes down to the frequency of instant cast shots, and missing aimed shot would hender this.

#44 KraxisSingular

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 10:44 PM

I don't find that trap mastery was very beneficial, especially over the loss of aimed shot. I've been finding at higher and higher gear levels, survival has been trumping mm hunters, especially on high mobility fights, this often times comes down to the frequency of instant cast shots, and missing aimed shot would hender this.


You don't specify the specs, so I have to assume you are responding to the 6/14/51 spec? In that case, Trap Mastery isn't taken over Aimed Shot, it is taken to get you to the next tier. The same holds true of most other Survival builds. If you have already taken Hawk Eye in tier 1, the question is not Aimed Shot vs Trap Mastery, it is Trap Mastery vs Hawk Eye. Trap Mastery should in the vast mojority of cases be the place to get your Hawk Eye points for Survival.

And yes, Survival is somewhat stronger on high mobility fights since a huge amount of DPS comes from instant sources (ES, Aimed, Serpent, Black Arrow), and it's pet is minimally better (and slightly more survivable) than the MM pet. I still spec to Survival on certain fights, just because I can't seem to match it as MM, or it has other advantages, like Trap Mastery on Saurfang and Dreamwalker, or mana efficiency on Dreamwalker).

But that brings me to a pet peeve I have about the 6/14/51 spec, it sacrifices pretty much everything that makes Survival strong for a pretty lousy DPS upgrade. To me it is just a poor man's MM, and in that case I would rather have the real thing, and keep Survival for what it is good for, soloing stuff, mana management and mobility.

#45 snail

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 03:31 AM

I've recently needed to re-spec to Survival at times in ICC10/25 for the benefits of replenishment. I was trying to use the spreadsheet to help create a second set of gear for that particular use when I noticed an anomaly that I'm having difficulty explaining. Perhaps this is a bug in the spreadsheet but I thought I'd post here regarding it while also posting in the spreadsheet thread.

The issue is that when I choose to NOT include Black Arrow in my shot selections on the spreadsheet I see a 4-600dps increase in DPS. This occurs regardless of how much ARP I have equipped; I suspected that my passive ~760 ARP might have been making Steady Shot a better choice than Black Arrow despite how remote that possibility seemed but it doesn't seem to be the case.

I continue to use Black Arrow in game as I do believe its a bug with the spreadsheet, however I thought I'd ask here just to cover any weird possibilities.

Has anyone else come across this anomaly?

#46 Nandei

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 05:45 AM

snail: I tried the same thing with Zeherah's online version of the spreadsheet. It showed a decrease of about 700 dps when I removed Black Arrow from my rotation, but also gave a warning: Warning: Division by zero in /home/cdaveb/femaledwarf/services/update_stats.php on line 3407.

Sounds like there might be a bug in the code, division by zero certainly does not sound good. I cannot use Shandara's sheet at the moment (am at work), so cannot test with that one. I do not know how much of the code is same anymore, but I would think it is likely they both could have a bug in BA calculations.

#47 Rivkah

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 06:56 AM

In the future if you find an issue like that on my site please send me feedback on the site so I can fix it. It was a side effect of a change I made the other day to add support for explosive trap, it just wasn't dealing properly with no LnL shot specified but it's fixed now. It definitely lowers the dps for me when I disable black arrow.

I'm not really sure why Shandara's sheet would be reporting the dps as higher without unless it's somehow giving credit for LnL procs from BA even when you don't have BA but it does sound like a bug.

#48 snail

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 02:04 PM

I ran the rotation tests in Shandara's spreadsheet and it produces the same calculation without creating any LnL procs. Unless someone in the spreadsheet thread (or this one) confirms its a bug I'll be running a couple of test runs on a target dummy this weekend.

#49 fnoflyfish

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 05:23 PM

Regarding ArP and Trinkets and the advantage of Glyphing SS vs ES.

My ArP atm is ~28%, and when NES proc, it jumps to about 77% (if I recall correctly).

Would this be enough to really make a difference in glyphing SS vs ES? (and yes realizing that NES is on the 45 sec internal CD).

#50 mako

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 06:06 PM

It's not *just* having more arp that makes the glyph switch ideal. When you're at high levels of crit, you could probably crit-cap explosive shot with MT and a trinket proc.
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#51 UnstableFluxx

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 07:33 PM

It's not *just* having more arp that makes the glyph switch ideal. When you're at high levels of crit, you could probably crit-cap explosive shot with MT and a trinket proc.


But judging from the amount of static armpen he has, I'd say he isn't really near crit-cap either. Once you get up to BiS 251/264 gear you should generally have anywhere from 45% to 55% static armpen as a SV hunter. At those gear levels it is usually better to glyph SS instead of ES. At lower gear levels (232-245) it is usually better to glyph ES because of the relatively 'low' level of crit you get from that gear (as opposed to ICC gear). The increased crit from the glyph will benefit your dps more than the increased damage of SS, since ES is our big damage ability. I recommend you play around with hunter spreadsheet or online dps calculator to best determine when you should swap over from ES to SS glyph flyfish.

#52 UnstableFluxx

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 07:17 PM

So I've got a dilemma. As I near 80% static 25m buffed crit I'm worried that I'll soon be over the crit cap when abilities/trinkets proc. This will defiantly be more of a concern as I acquire more 277 gear. The only way I've really been able to think of combating this has been to get gear with more armpen and less crit or just no crit all together, but I don't really like the idea of trying for gear with no crit. So my question is: Does anyone know of another way to try and reduce the diminishing returns of crit? I know the cap is 104.5% but at times even now I've seen myself pushing 95% crit with some procs.

#53 Guest_alienangel_*

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 07:50 PM

So I've got a dilemma. As I near 80% static 25m buffed crit I'm worried that I'll soon be over the crit cap when abilities/trinkets proc. This will defiantly be more of a concern as I acquire more 277 gear. The only way I've really been able to think of combating this has been to get gear with more armpen and less crit or just no crit all together, but I don't really like the idea of trying for gear with no crit. So my question is: Does anyone know of another way to try and reduce the diminishing returns of crit? I know the cap is 104.5% but at times even now I've seen myself pushing 95% crit with some procs.


Well, your goal is still to do as much damage as possible, whether that entails sometimes exceeding the crit cap on some shots or not. Even if some upgrades push you over cap during procs, they are likely still upgrades.

As for gearing to combat that, you don't really have much choice in gear, all 3 specs aim for fairly similar gear, because the alternatives are poor - too much hit, or haste, or not 277 or not providing a good set bonus - this leads to the above situation of an upgrade still being the best choice even when over a crit softcap. As you gear up the problem will sort itself out though, since you'll end up gemming arp instead of agi, which will reduce your crit by 8-10%. Looking at your current gear, you'd potentially gain DPS in your MM spec by gemming arp, and after doing that, assuming you don't have a duplicate set of gear around for SV, your crit would have fallen and you'd likely have so much passive arp that arp would be near equal or better per point than agi - especially if you replaced your arp-less 2hander for one of the arp weapons and gained another 100 or so arp from there. Even if you're not at the point of gemming arp as SV yet, you're already acquiring 277 loot so will be there soon.

#54 UnstableFluxx

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 08:06 PM

Well, your goal is still to do as much damage as possible, whether that entails sometimes exceeding the crit cap on some shots or not. Even if some upgrades push you over cap during procs, they are likely still upgrades.

As for gearing to combat that, you don't really have much choice in gear, all 3 specs aim for fairly similar gear, because the alternatives are poor - too much hit, or haste, or not 277 or not providing a good set bonus - this leads to the above situation of an upgrade still being the best choice even when over a crit softcap. As you gear up the problem will sort itself out though, since you'll end up gemming arp instead of agi, which will reduce your crit by 8-10%. Looking at your current gear, you'd potentially gain DPS in your MM spec by gemming arp, and after doing that, assuming you don't have a duplicate set of gear around for SV, your crit would have fallen and you'd likely have so much passive arp that arp would be near equal or better per point than agi - especially if you replaced your arp-less 2hander for one of the arp weapons and gained another 100 or so arp from there. Even if you're not at the point of gemming arp as SV yet, you're already acquiring 277 loot so will be there soon.



I was thinking about gemming ArmPen in the future as SV but wasn't really sure if it was viable. I'll need to fool around with the spreadsheet when I get a chance to see what my gearing/gems/enchants will be like once I get to mostly 277 BiS. And I know, I'm currently only about 2.5% away from the hard armpen cap in my MM gear if I regemmed, but I enjoy SV more :)

If any other SV hunters have encountered or have at least theory crafted with armpen as SV, send me a pm as I would like to pick your brain if you're up for it :D

#55 Peldin

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 07:07 PM

If it's any help, I'm near the arp cap since I primarily play MM in raids. However, on the spreadsheet I made a SV spec with my current gear. I wanted to see how much more dps I would gain by switching all my arp gems to agi and I was surprised to see that the spreadsheet showed me LOSING 7 dps when I replace an arp gem with an agi one.

#56 Tooran

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 08:58 PM

BM-hunters also see a theoretical dps increase on higher levels of arm.pen, by regemming from AP to Arm.Pen, though that might be more obvious considering the shots they're using.

However, I wouldn't reccomend doing it, nor the survival hunters. A DPS-increase of 7 ON A THEORETICAL BASIS is just no enough to cover up for the fact that Arm.Pen will not benefit you much when you are moving (firing ES and maybe AS), which you do quite a lot in ICC.

#57 pichuca

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 07:47 AM

If it's any help, I'm near the arp cap since I primarily play MM in raids. However, on the spreadsheet I made a SV spec with my current gear. I wanted to see how much more dps I would gain by switching all my arp gems to agi and I was surprised to see that the spreadsheet showed me LOSING 7 dps when I replace an arp gem with an agi one.


The stat values change point-to-point each time you modify something. I´ll try to explain. While most of stats are "linear" and they´re value doesn´t change a lot while you gear up, arpen scales exponentially. Well, the same goes when you start moving from arpen to AGI, it will lose value point to point. 1º Gem X-5, 2º X-4, 3º X-2... 10º x+10 and so on.

Anyway, I wouldn´t been surprised if after changing every gem the DPS is +-5% from arpen to agi since you may have loads of passive arpen and the spreadsheet doesn´t take movement into consideration, so autoshot and steady gain value




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