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Kelthuzad Phase 3


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#1 Plea

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 09:20 AM

Having some problems with the spawns.

I cannot see a way to control them 100% safely. Tank, shackle, both; everything comes to an end when the tank/priest is mind controlled and we lose control on the combat. We're reaching phase 3 at almost every attempt, with 35+ people most of the time, but that looks extremely hard to have full control on them. We wiped at 1% just because 2 tanks in a row got frost blast and 3 ads two shotted every next healer, healing 3k ticks from that icecube was pretty hard it seems. Another wipe was because mind controlling the tank of 2 ads. All these overall look too random.

Are we supposed to kill Kelthuzad before it kills us like at ouro, or does anyone have a solid tactic for the ads? I'm used to having a secondary tank, or any secondary method for things like mind controls or frost blasts; here I felt hopeless. After spending 3 days on horsemen I dont really think we can down him this week, but we can at least hope for the best.

#2 Quigon

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 09:23 AM

Like most posts like this, you answered your own questions.

#3 Plea

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 09:30 AM

I'm afraid I couldnt, he'd be dead otherwise. We're kinda stuck in a deadend, that's what leads me here.

#4 Samelina

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 09:49 AM

You don't want any DPS on the adds. Tank / Shackle them.

#5 Regis

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 09:54 AM

Tank and shackle them. The adds are ofcourse a problem, that's why they're there. But try your best with shackling and tanking them. All your warriors should be dressed in tanking gear, perhaps the dps warriors in hybrid gear. Also, you need to keep cool when p3 hits and keep your positioning so you only get 1, max 2 frost blast encasings.

#6 Nurru

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 09:59 AM

Are we supposed to kill Kelthuzad before it kills us like at ouro

Did you actually even try this?

#7 Plea

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 10:02 AM

No, but we can't avoid falling one by one either. So sooner or later it's coming to that.

#8 Nurru

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 10:04 AM

My point is, before asking "Should we do this?" how about trying it?

#9 Sticks

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 10:11 AM

Really unsure how on earth your bug tanks got mced. Did you just not have anyone dpsing kel? Really, once you have all the adds under control, phase 3 is no different to phase 2 for us. The only problem for us is the 10 seconds after they first spawn but after that, its pretty much smooth sailing if they haven't already caused too much damage.

#10 Plea

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 10:20 AM

I didnt actually mean exactly fast as ouro, or any hard nuking like that. :)

As said, we're wiping slowly when it hits. It seems to be heavily dependant on luck, which I dont want to believe. If that's what we should accept in the first hand, dealing with luck I mean, that would answer that question.

#11 Spike

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 10:27 AM

I wouldn't compare Kel'Thuzad to Ouro: on a perfect Kel'Thuzad kill you're going to have your whole raid alive, whereas our Ouro kills are with barely 10 people up. We treated phase 3 sort of like huhuran's enrage : we stop dps at 42% and wait for the MC, once he's done that we go all out. About the adds: We shackled 3 and offtanked 2; priests said you somehow can't shackle all of them. Apparently the remaining ass are immune to shackle so you're always going to have to offtank 2.
We managed to keep the fight completely under control, we had no deaths from the guardians and only lost a few melee due to frost blasts around 10% since they were getting antsy and ignored the move in/out warnings.

#12 Sticks

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 10:38 AM

Yes, 3 is the max you can shackle. Memory is a little hazy as we haven't tried shackling more for a number of weeks but I'm pretty sure all current shackles get dispelled if you try and shackle more, rather than just one breaking/extras being immune. If the tanked bugs don't change target too often, then won't hit for very much at all. Our bug tanks don't actually do anything at all in phase 2 anyway, so really phase 3 is almost exactly the same, with just a little more healing required. This is of course assuming you can get the bugs under control easily/quickly. If you can't, well.. things can get very ugly very quickly.

#13 Cryect

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 05:28 PM

Make sure priests aren't trying to shackle one a tank is trying to tank since they just keep on growing in size if you do that.

healing 3k ticks from that icecube was pretty hard it seems.

Heh then have them have less life if it makes that more manageble. More HP actually makes KT harder for people besides MT's.

But, we have 2 tanks tanking them all with a couple shackles up also and normally things go quite clean. Also if tanks getting Frost Blasted or MC is an issue in this phase then move them more than 100 yds away from KT (might require moving KT but consider it). Are you also waiting for MC to go off before going down to 40%? You should be able to kill KT before he gets off another MC if you wait for one at the low 40's.
I need to do something useless.

#14 Elendril

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 05:34 PM

I wouldn't compare Kel'Thuzad to Ouro: on a perfect Kel'Thuzad kill you're going to have your whole raid alive, whereas our Ouro kills are with barely 10 people up

eh? ouro is perfectly killable with 0 deaths. kel is the same way.

but yeah, DPS kel, control guardians, collect purplz. blood tap and AOE dispels makes it ultimately non-sustainable, but you have time. make sure people have their cooldowns ready to blow when you hit 40 to make it go faster - i always time it so i have rapid fire/kots ready for stage 3.

#15 Plea

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 06:35 PM

Heh then have them have less life if it makes that more manageble. More HP actually makes KT harder for people besides MT's.

But, we have 2 tanks tanking them all with a couple shackles up also and normally things go quite clean. Also if tanks getting Frost Blasted or MC is an issue in this phase then move them more than 100 yds away from KT (might require moving KT but consider it). Are you also waiting for MC to go off before going down to 40%? You should be able to kill KT before he gets off another MC if you wait for one at the low 40's.

We saw that in the hard way too, having more hp isnt really that good at kelthuzad; especially while tanking 2 ads a frostblast is almost impossible to counter if you have 12k hp.

About mc, didnt think it was totally threat based(is it?) since the priests and hunters etc were getting it; apart from the tank it seemed random. I hope you meant the offtanks wont get mc? Or was it just to get less mind controls during p3?

#16 Sticks

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 06:47 PM

We usually wait for an mc before going below 40%. This reduces the total number of MCs you are going to take sub 40% and more importantly makes certain you won't get an MC just as the adds spawn which can get very messy with the amount of stuff going on. The bug tanks should never get MCed unless they have been dpsing just prior to tanking.

#17 Masq

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 09:26 AM

I was just curious, on average how many offtanks do guilds use? As many as they could get?

We've been trying with 5-6 warriors, but we always run out. Has anyone had any luck doing it P3 with less than five warriors?

#18 Sycn

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 10:01 AM

When you say offtanks are you referring to those that take care of bugs or total number of warriors minus the MT? In all our kills we had 7, 4 on KT and assigned 3 warriors to sit around waiting for bugs. First 3 are shackled by assigned priests(backups assigned to each priest just in case) and given a raid icon, the 3 warriors sort out the other two.

#19 Sticks

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 10:01 AM

We usually bring 6 warriors (sometimes a 7th but he generally stands around doing jack waiting for someone to die). However, only 4 of them ever tank - 2 on kel, 2 waiting till phase 3 then tanking a bug each. The other 2 are in dps gear on pummel duty along with 2 rogues. I'm sure we could swap those 2 warriors for 2 extra rogues with no issue. So yeah, 4 is the minimum number you need if you have enough rogues, at least with the strat we use.

#20 Guest_aarkh_*

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 10:19 AM

Really unsure how on earth your bug tanks got mced. Did you just not have anyone dpsing kel?

Hmm, we've had offtanks get MCd in P3 and we go all out on him then, so I don't see how the MC targets beside the MT can have anything to do with threat.

As others have said, waiting for an MC pre 40% and then burning him down works, I would not, however, count on killing him before you have another MC in phase 3. He will still have 1.12 million HP or so, and the earliest an MC can come is in 60 seconds, which would require you to do 18.6k raid DPS (assuming you start going full out from the second MC hits, which isn't true) to kill him in time. Obviously, the MC can take longer also, but you hardly are guaranteed to kill him within one MC in P3. Therefore you should be prepared for a tankswitch there.




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