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What should we expect in damage from our raid hunters?


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#21 diotox

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 10:27 PM

I wouldn't worry about the ammo, I'd go double check all their weapons. Judging by the sound of your guild's progression I would assume all the hunters have at least rhok delar by now, but make sure. It's entirely within the realm of possibility that you guys have gotten horrid luck on leaf drops (unlikely, but we've seen it happen), and chromaggus can go months without coughing up a crossbow. I could also easily see someone being a complete slacker on doing the demon quests even if they did have a leaf. Basically, do a "hurricane patrol" and make sure you don't have anyone using that stupid bow. After that you can discuss shot cycles and what dps strategy they are using. Remember, a lot of people even in raid guilds aren't really min-maxers and will do the bare minimum to get by. Sometimes this is a conscious decision on their part, other times they are just ignorant and would improve their play but they don't realize their play is bad in the first place.

#22 Dwargue

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 10:30 PM

Where there is a much larger problem it's not a good idea to pay attention to something as small and insignifigant as ammo until the larger problem is worked out.

i must conceed to this. With all the work from rogues like Kalman that have been posted here, as well as linked on the rogue forums, any rogue who wanted to maximize their damage can easily find the spreadsheets, spend 5 minutes to plug in the gear, and at least get a baseline for performance gains/losses.

alas, even at the naxx level, the guild i was in had people who still thought there was a hard-cap on +hit, who refused to believe that ACLG was godly, who refused to use SnD instead of Evis... these were the same people that really liked their matching T2 outfit though.. >_>

i suspect the same thing w/ hunters. Even though there's extensive writeups and simulations on damage cycles based on wpns, most hunters probably haven't made use of those resources.

#23 Nurru

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 10:39 PM

While we're turning this thread into a useless pile I'd like to recommend you move off an RP server if you want your hunters to do good dps.

#24 Emie

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 10:45 PM

While we're turning this thread into a useless pile I'd like to recommend you move off an RP server if you want your hunters to do good dps.

No
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#25 Judia

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 10:47 PM

From a group that always runs with 5 of each class, and therefore needs hutners and locks to pull their weight, I would say that on a boss fight hunter dps is directly proportional to the amount of time spent standing still.

On a fight like bug trio, skeram, or Sartura your damage meter should looks something like
Mages
Hutners/locks
Melee dps

On a fight where everyon is static like fankriss it should look more like:
Mages/Roges
Hunters/Locks/Warriors

If someone is low, consider their gear, their consumables, and what they are doing. If you cant find the problem then start looking at their dps cycle. Hunters should be able to beat warlocks on anyfight that does not give a natural break in which they can lifetap, C'thun is a good example of a fight where smart warlocks can lifetap at times when their dps in unaffected.

I find the best way to handle dps issues it to tell the person at the bottom of the meter to ask the person at the top for tips, rather than to be too agressive in handling them.
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#26 McInaction

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 10:50 PM

I just had a scary thought.

Do they have an auto shot timer mod? like sorren's hunter timers or zhunter mod?

It's pretty much impossible to maintain a good rotation if you can't see your autoshot time.

But we need more info, what weapons are they using first of all?

Secondly, are they potting, do they use mana pots or do they fd/drink?

How is their gear? mix of t1/t2?

Are they even trying to manage a rotation, or just going by cooldowns?

If you need a shot macro to hold your hand then you are probably on the wrong forums.


#27 Emie

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 10:50 PM

An interesting setup you have there. We normally divide our groups a bit more evenly especially OT's and their healers. I'm just curious as to how you assign healers. 4 of your groups have no healers.
Do you actually assign healing groups for your healers or is it just all X-Healing?

Our healing lead typically assigns dedicated healing to the MT and any OTs or other specific people if its important for a fight. Other healers are getting assigned out to heal various parts of the raid as needed and just doing free for all healing on those groups. A good example is we have a couple free for all healers assigned to our ranged DPS on Firemaw. They have certain classes to keep an eye on but no one specific. There is no reason they need to be in the same group to heal their assigned group unless your healing strategy involves AoE healing. We do use AoE healing in some situations. Notably Vael. In this case, our group layout changes. But that wasn't really important to this discussion so I didn't go down that route.
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#28 Emie

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 10:55 PM

I just had a scary thought.

Do they have an auto shot timer mod? like sorren's hunter timers or zhunter mod?

It's pretty much impossible to maintain a good rotation if you can't see your autoshot time.

But we need more info, what weapons are they using first of all?

Secondly, are they potting, do they use mana pots or do they fd/drink?

How is their gear? mix of t1/t2?

Are they even trying to manage a rotation, or just going by cooldowns?

These are really good questions and certainly Im not able to answer them all with out going back and finding out first.

The timer mods, I dont know... good stuff though. I'll have to bring it up.
Pots,... I dont think so. At least not too much. I do think a few of them FD/Drink though.
Gear is a mix of T1/T2. Keep in mind we only farmed MC for 9 weeks and then 6 weeks in BWL with just our first Nef kill this last Sunday. So no one is 'decked out' at all. But no one is wearing utter crap either.
Rotations.... I dont know.. I will have to find out.
As to what the weapons they are using. I believe they all have their leaf bows. Perhaps 1 of them doesnt but I would have to double check.

I'm certainly interested in working on the DPS with them and the ideas you bring up is great. But I still don't know how to quantify when hunter DPS is Good, decent and lacking.
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#29 Zurai

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 10:57 PM

Pots,... I dont think so. At least not too much. I do think a few of them FD/Drink though.

FD/Drink will kill their DPS. Tell the ones that do that to stock up on Superior Mana Potions (or Combat Mana Potions if they have the rank). They're cheap and entirely negate the need to feign to drink except on the longest, hardest DPS fights (which you havn't gotten to yet).

#30 Emie

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 11:00 PM

I find the best way to handle dps issues it to tell the person at the bottom of the meter to ask the person at the top for tips, rather than to be too agressive in handling them.

This is a good idea but all of them are pretty low on the meter so asking the bottom to query the guy at the top for tips isn't much of an improvement for anyone. They are pretty attentive people from what I can tell so I don't know what the problem is.

Like I said in the OP of course I understand that some fights favor classes and so on. I'm already taking that into account with the consideration. But when its consistent across all the bosses in BWL it makes me think there is a problem.
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#31 hawkon

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 11:08 PM

Speaking from a hunters point of view, i admit we're gimped. though it's not as bad as people think. If the hunters were in my guild, i expect atleast 550+ dps on fights like patchwerk, assuming they have the gear people normally have as they progress through naxx (dragonstalker, a few pieces of cs, ashjrethul etc). atleast on fights we can use pet, we ususually score abit below rogues/mages/warriors, but not too far away. fights i expect hunters top 5, or atleast top 10 is loatheb, patchwerk, twin emps(gotta love this fight as hunter), and sartura.

If your hunters arent performing as they should i advice them to read the posts from lactose, the search button is this way ->

#32 Bruinbain

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 11:16 PM

One more silly thought. make sure they are using aimed shot and not arcane shot. lol.

We had a potential hunter recruit guest with us on a farm run the other night (BWL) and they were using arcane shot pretty much exclusively rather than aimed shot. When questioned about it later they said that the tanks they had raided with in the past, couldn't hold aggro so they would just arcane shot to not pull aggro.

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#33 Dwargue

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 11:19 PM

to be fair, if you are barely starting to farm BWL, your guild's gear level's probably not quite up to speed, and of those, the hunters are probably hurting more than the others.

are you guys doing ZG? there are some great upgrades for hunters in there if they aren't in BWL gear already.

for your situation though, i would expect the top damage spots to go to combat dagger rogues, fire mages, and maybe a few fury warriors using at least a deathbringer+BB. this "inbetwee" gear level tends to favor the 3 classes above due to game mechanics and itemization availability, until everyone else catches up to the curve.

where is the *average* hunter in relation to the *average* warlock? is there a knowlegable hunter class lead that can help them out with gear selection and appropriate spec for their gear? at some level, they'll have to switch between marksman and survival.

#34 McInaction

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 11:23 PM

Replied on your guilds forums Emie, in the thread you had stickied as important.

If you need a shot macro to hold your hand then you are probably on the wrong forums.


#35 zepi

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 11:27 PM

Rotations.... I dont know.. I will have to find out.

We're getting a extended maintenance in europe this night, and I'm assuming that is going to mean an upgrade. I wonder if it is the rumouder 1.13 patch with new hunter talents and changes. If it is, there is no reason to waste time thinking about hunters untill we actually now how they fare compared to mages, locks and meleedps.

I have a feeling that the by the time our server comes up from it's surgical coma, the time of 2-3 hunters in a raidgroup is long gone...

#36 Nurru

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 11:32 PM

1.13 is not going to be added this week. Assuming it is is nothing but foolish unless they completely disregarded their claim that 1.13 would be on the PTR.

#37 Elendril

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 11:40 PM

I just had a scary thought.

Do they have an auto shot timer mod? like sorren's hunter timers or zhunter mod?

It's pretty much impossible to maintain a good rotation if you can't see your autoshot time.

i've never used an autoshot timer. heh.

also, feigning to drink is NEVER right. never ever ever ever, unless there's not a boss you can shoot, like on ouro burrow stages or c'thun carapace stages with no tentacle up. mana oils on your weapons (two if you're dual wielding), mageblood pots, and combat/superior mana pots should sustain your mana through pretty much any fight, and on the really long ones you can use dark/demonic runes. before i had 6 piece CS i spent a lot of time farming felwood for runes. mana is a hunter's best friend.

some people say look at their ammo - i say look at their bracer enchants. ;)

#38 Zurai

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 11:46 PM

i've never used an autoshot timer. heh.

Me neither. I just stand apart from the other hunters and wait til I hear/see my autoshot go off. No extraneous mod needed.

#39 Bury

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 11:47 PM

If the hunters were in my guild, i expect atleast 550+ dps on fights like patchwerk, assuming they have the gear people normally have as they progress through naxx (dragonstalker, a few pieces of cs, ashjrethul etc). atleast on fights we can use pet, we ususually score abit below rogues/mages/warriors, but not too far away. fights i expect hunters top 5, or atleast top 10 is loatheb, patchwerk, twin emps(gotta love this fight as hunter), and sartura.

One problem that I see in using Patchwerk as a benchmark fight for hunter dps is that it doesn't play to some of the strengths of hunter dps. Not having to move between mobs (and thus being able to easily transition between mobs) and almost never having to back out and pause DPS are two I can think of off the top of my head.

Well that, and the OP is just starting AQ40.

Secondly, are they potting, do they use mana pots or do they fd/drink?

I've played a hunter to 7pc T2, and I found that buying mana pots is one of the best investments I've made as far as hunter dps. In addition, remember that hunters can generally afford to use more consumables as they don't get wiped when FD is an option. Unlike say, rogues. Twin Emps is a really good example of when hunters can stretch Mongoose/Mageblood/etc across fights to reduce their cost (and thus use more on a limited budget)

Ammo really isn't an issue, I pull good damage all the time with jaggeds, even on boss fights when I forgot to equip my thorium. (infact i only bring 5 stacks of thorium to any naxx raid because that's all I'll really need)

Why not use Ice Threaded Arrows? I stock up on them all the time on my hunter, simply because they're so cheap compared to Thorium and it's one more consumable I can use.

#40 Lucit

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 12:03 AM

Make sure you have paladins dedicated to JoL/JoW. JoW is a great boost to sustained ranged DPS, and I know a lot of the Alliance raiders I've talked to do not recognize its value.




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