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What should we expect in damage from our raid hunters?


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#41 Bender

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 12:25 AM

Since we don't have any information it's hard to say why, but if your best hunters are consitently in the low 15's, they are underperforming badly if they have equal gear with the rest of the raid. I have not consistently been below top 10 since i started raiding. There are a few bosses where I'm not in the top10, but not many.

Why not use Ice Threaded Arrows? I stock up on them all the time on my hunter, simply because they're so cheap compared to Thorium and it's one more consumable I can use.

Ice threaded are more expensive than thorium headed. If you craft thorium headed by buying the mats and giving them to an engi they are much cheaper than if you are buying the arrows straight off the AH.

2 stacks of thorium and 2 stacks of dense stone = 20 stacks of thorium headed. On my server that's about 7-10 gold for the mats. 20 stacks of ice threaded is 11,2 gold and they have 1 less dps.
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#42 Elendril

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 12:33 AM

i'm not sure why people are trying to say thorium headed arrows aren't worth it. they're 4.5 DPS above jaggeds, and that's just on autoshot. if you do 200 autoshot dps with jagged, you're doing 204.5 with thorium - that's over a 2% increase, and it benefits your specials as well. i use thoriums throughout every naxx clear.

#43 McInaction

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 12:39 AM

My quiver tends to be:
Thoriums (4-5 stacks)
Doomshot (3 stacks)
Jaggeds (Everything else)

I just don't really bother using thorium on trash (except gargoyles, I hate those gargoyles) And I also use the smart ammo feature on zhunter mod, uses jaggeds to stings and other non-damage based shots.

If you need a shot macro to hold your hand then you are probably on the wrong forums.


#44 Dwargue

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 12:42 AM

i'm not sure why people are trying to say thorium headed arrows aren't worth it. they're 4.5 DPS above jaggeds, and that's just on autoshot. if you do 200 autoshot dps with jagged, you're doing 204.5 with thorium - that's over a 2% increase, and it benefits your specials as well. i use thoriums throughout every naxx clear.

basic cost:benefit analysis.

i know of a few rogues don't use poison because "it costs too much".. .. o.O

i guess it's easy to say "f@#k it" and go with the cheap stuff when you're either on:
1. farming status
2. learning encounters where you're wiping over and over.

and if you are ok with using crappy ammo on those, it's pretty easy to justify not using expensive ammo for the inbetween situations.

this may be better for the class/personality thread, but based upon personal experience, hunters seem to be the most penny pinching class in game. i hear less complaining from healers having to farm and buy pots, than i do from hunters about how much they spend per raid on ammo.

#45 sasukekun

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 12:48 AM

i'm not sure why people are trying to say thorium headed arrows aren't worth it. they're 4.5 DPS above jaggeds, and that's just on autoshot. if you do 200 autoshot dps with jagged, you're doing 204.5 with thorium - that's over a 2% increase, and it benefits your specials as well. i use thoriums throughout every naxx clear.

I'm not a miner, randomly people will give me thorium/dense stone and i'll use thorium arrows on boss fights, but for trash clears i will use jagged arrows.

#46 Dinian

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 12:49 AM

Despite all of Elendril's muscle flexing, the man does knows his stuff and is incredibly good at maximizing the gear he has as demonstrated by his performance in Naxx. This is a zone where many of us have stumbled at while our rogue, warrior, and mage counterparts have blossomed.

However, reading through your background on the guild I think it's fair to say that you don't have any hunters that are truly serious about maximizing their dps. Otherwise, you wouldn't be here asking for help. Unless they are serious asses, there should be cross pollenation in strategy.

Start with baby steps, make sure they all:
a) understand the theory behind shot rotations and use autoshot timer mods to help them get their own rhythm down
b) understand optimal consumable utilization
c) are geared to the task

For instance, you can't do things like only give Drake Fang Talismans to rogues only and force hunters to use blue trinkets and expect them to keep up.

Long term see if any of the hunters is interested in being the DPS expert for their class and have them do research on forums like this and task them with getting their class up to speed.

It's a dead horse that keeps getting beaten on the forums re: hunter dps scaling at the high end relative to our peers. Still, given the whole package (survivability, low maintenance heals, dps, minor crowd control) a hunter at the top of his game should still be a valued addition. Hopefully they aren't all just playing on lazy cruise control because of all the gloom and doom around hunter circles.

There is no excuse for mediocrity no matter what your class. It is a good sign that your guild is making sure they are earning their fair share and working for their spots.

#47 Elendril

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 12:58 AM

i'm not sure why people are trying to say thorium headed arrows aren't worth it. they're 4.5 DPS above jaggeds, and that's just on autoshot. if you do 200 autoshot dps with jagged, you're doing 204.5 with thorium - that's over a 2% increase, and it benefits your specials as well. i use thoriums throughout every naxx clear.

I'm not a miner, randomly people will give me thorium/dense stone and i'll use thorium arrows on boss fights, but for trash clears i will use jagged arrows.

i'm not a miner either, and i can understand using jagged for trash mobs, but the implications in this thread seemed to be that they're not worth using at all, and that's just not true - they provide a meaningful DPS increase.

i'm kind of spoiled, i guess. i mentioned last week that i was running out of thorium arrows and wouldn't have time to make any before our next raid and logged in to 30+ stacks in my mail :-P

#48 Eej

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 12:58 AM

Man who the hell uses Thoriums? That shit's way too expensive, I just go with Ice Threaded Arrows. They cost less and they're only a 1 dps lower, but still a lot higher than Jagged Arrows. I used to be all cool and awesome and switch between Jagged and Ice Threaded for trash, but I got lazy after a while and I don't really spend gold on anything anyways.

Oh and of course you can give DFT to Rogues only and force Hunters to use Royal Seal of Eldre'thalas, the difference in RAP is very minimal.

i'm kind of spoiled, i guess. i mentioned last week that i was running out of thorium arrows and wouldn't have time to make any before our next raid and logged in to 30+ stacks in my mail :-P

That's because they want to have a trading card made after them, don't trust them!

#49 Zurai

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 12:59 AM

i'm not sure why people are trying to say thorium headed arrows aren't worth it. they're 4.5 DPS above jaggeds, and that's just on autoshot. if you do 200 autoshot dps with jagged, you're doing 204.5 with thorium - that's over a 2% increase, and it benefits your specials as well. i use thoriums throughout every naxx clear.

Yes, but overall they're less than 2%. With a crossbow of smiting, you get 5 shots per 10 seconds, or 1 shot per 2 seconds, for a general average high DPS of 500 (just saving time, here - I think most will accept that if a hunter is doing 500 DPS they're doing well). To that 500 DPS you're adding 15.3 damage/2 seconds = 7.65 DPS, or right around 1.5%. That's all well and good, but on my server thorium costs 40 silver per bar, and a single stack of thorium arrows will run you a gold. That's 11 times the cost of jagged arrows (12.5 if you're seargant or above).

Why on earth would I spend that much extra money on trash or bosses where total DPS isn't important, for such a tiny increase in overall damage? Seriously, 12 times the cost for a 1.5% increase in performance?

In the same vein, would you use Brilliant Mana Oils instead of Lesser Mana Oils? They're signifigantly better, paired, but they're hideously more expensive.

#50 McInaction

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 01:02 AM

Is it wrong that my two raiding trinkets are blackhands and a mindtap? =(

If you need a shot macro to hold your hand then you are probably on the wrong forums.


#51 Zurai

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 01:06 AM

Nope. They're both great trinkets for hunters (though I personally wouldn't use mindtap - I havn't had a mana problem that superior pots and demonic runes didn't fix, especially now that I've started downranking multishot).

#52 Nightarcher

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 01:07 AM

Anyone wonders if Eej actualy usese the weapon he has on his avatar?

#53 Dinian

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 01:08 AM

Oh and of course you can give DFT to Rogues only and force Hunters to use Royal Seal of Eldre'thalas, the difference in RAP is very minimal.

The difference in +hit, however, is not.

#54 McInaction

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 01:11 AM

Oh and of course you can give DFT to Rogues only and force Hunters to use Royal Seal of Eldre'thalas, the difference in RAP is very minimal.

The difference in +hit, however, is not.

The DFT debate is an entirely diffrent topic that can go back and forth, my stance has always been that it allows for flexibility in hunter gear choices. (like if I had a DFT I could use a normal scope...)

If you need a shot macro to hold your hand then you are probably on the wrong forums.


#55 Eej

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 01:15 AM

Anyone wonders if Eej actualy usese the weapon he has on his avatar?

Man, I put my CT Profile in my sig for a reason. :|

Oh and of course you can give DFT to Rogues only and force Hunters to use Royal Seal of Eldre'thalas, the difference in RAP is very minimal.

The difference in +hit, however, is not.

Hunters don't really need +hit, you get so much +hit from gear already. Say you had full Giantstalkers stepping into BWL, that's +3% hit right there, add on two ZG Enchants, another +2%, throw in a Onyxia Tooth Pendant, another 1%.

So 6% from armour + neck, which for DPS purposes means you're going to miss like 1/90 shots (or so), which isn't a big deal. If you really need 9% hit for tranq shot, get an Accurascope or 3/3 Surefooted.

Nevermind the amount of +hit you can get from rings and cloaks.

#56 McInaction

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 01:22 AM

Man, I put my CT Profile in my sig for a reason. :|

Nice bracer enchant! *snicker*

If you need a shot macro to hold your hand then you are probably on the wrong forums.


#57 Elendril

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 01:31 AM

Is it wrong that my two raiding trinkets are blackhands and a mindtap? =(

depends what zone you're raiding. :-P in naxx, yes it's wrong - seal of the dawn is far and away the best trinket you can wear there outside of slayer's crest or DFT if you need the +hit (and i'm not going to get into the DFT debate, because i've had it so many times that my head will explode). i rotate between KOTS and Jom Gabbar depending on cooldowns, but i always have my seal equipped - except in the spider wing, where i use DFT over the seal.

#58 Eej

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 01:32 AM

Man, I put my CT Profile in my sig for a reason. :|

Nice bracer enchant! *snicker*

It was a choice between enchanting for PvP or PvE, and I always pick PvP over PvE. :<

#59 Judia

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 01:35 AM

Pots,... I dont think so. At least not too much. I do think a few of them FD/Drink though.

FD/Drink will kill their DPS. Tell the ones that do that to stock up on Superior Mana Potions (or Combat Mana Potions if they have the rank). They're cheap and entirely negate the need to feign to drink except on the longest, hardest DPS fights (which you havn't gotten to yet).

You should never FD/drink unless there is nothing to dps.
Its been shown that on any fight less than several hours you get better DPS first by downranking MS to rank 1 and then downranking Aimedshot to rank 1.
To err is human

#60 Zurai

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 01:39 AM

You should never FD/drink unless there is nothing to dps.
Its been shown that on any fight less than several hours you get better DPS first by downranking MS to rank 1 and then downranking Aimedshot to rank 1.

True, but all I said is that superior pots negate the need to feign-drink except on the longest fights. I didn't say it was a good idea to feign then, just that superior pots wouldn't cut it ;) Superior pots + demonic runes + lesser mana oils + nightfin or sagefish means you don't ever have to worry about running out of mana, even as a Horde player.




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