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On the Value of Haste


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#21 kamaia

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 09:51 PM

1. DA total is capped at 10000
2. DA lasts 12s and that is refreshed each time the effect occurs
3. DA is absorbed "first", that is before Sacred Shield, PWS, AMS, etc?
4. All critical heals contribute to DA, regardless of overheal (I just tested this in game so it should be the case).
5. The combat log does not differentiate between absorbs.


I can confirm 2, 4, and 5. 1 and 3 should be determinable from the combat log and some creative parsing. I remember seeing a blue post on order saying that it's either a last-in-first-out (LIFO) or first-in-first-out (FIFO), but I can't find it now.

#22 Squeakster

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 10:23 PM

The DA proc can overheal, when you reach the 10k absorb cap and in some cases DA can even expire due to tank swaps or phase transitions.
Typically you need 3 FH crits to reach a 10k+ DA shield, with 40-50% crit this occures around 6.4-12.5% of the time and takes around 2.3s without damage on the tank. It is not much but it happens, especially under the effects of power infusion or heroism.


This is a good point about the 10k cap on DA, although in order for this to come into play while chain casting FH we would need to consider the fourth consecutive crit, not the third, because the fourth DA is the one that would be wasted. Assuming 1.2 second Flash Heals and 40% crit, the 10k cap should only come into play about 2.6% of the time and only if the tank takes no damage over the 3.6 seconds of those Flash Heals. Certainly something for us to keep in mind, but it doesn't sound like it would throw off the value of crit very much.


Hey all. I uploaded my log from ICC10 entirely as disc (spare valithria) for you all to use... for science!

Thank you for the data sir.

-----------

Thank you for your input Tasha, my comments added in bold:

Very interesting compendium about haste. Cheers! :)

Only a couple points I'd like to mention that came to my mind, and might be worth it.

- Haste vs Crit for Disc tank healing :
Haste has a slight advantage over crit because it increases your throughput in a linear way. Unlike crit rating, who is desired but less reliable. Although the DA mechanism functions a bit in the same way: your crits will help you prevent part of the next hit for the next 12 seconds, and you can stack it, but it's still proc based. I agree that in general reliable trumps sporadic when it comes to healing, but that doesn't prove haste has even a slight advantage over crit; that kind of statement is what we are trying to investigate
Also, you can say that getting more haste increases your chance to crit over a same fixed length of time (they scale with each other, kinda like for dps).This is a good point and I will edit my original post to point this out.
In short, haste is good for the same reason we heal with flash heal instead of greater heal. I guess this is like the "haste saves lives". Yeah I think we need to be more specific in this kind of argument. I agree that haste helps land the occasional heal-just-in-time, but saying it is therefore superior to other throughput increasing effects (like using GH over FH or adding crit/SP) requires a more substantive argument.

- Holy concentration uptime :
This is basicaly the same idea but for holy and regen, haste will also increase your chance to keep holy concentration up (depending on how you manage your prom/coh/filler use of course). And it scales with crit for that matter as well. So it's not a straigth mana consumption increase there.Good point again, and I will add this to my original post.

- About overhealing:
Getting high amounts of haste theoriticaly allows you better reactivity, and so you need less spamming. In reality, we hardly play with large enough amount of haste to make a huge difference in my opinion. (at a same gear level).
As a note, haste does not reduce overhealing if it allows you to heal before another healer. You might not overheal, but he will, instead of you. Same result, obviously. :) This is a really good point and something that I wrestled with too. I had initially planned to include a short section about whether haste reduces overhealing but eventually talked myself out of it before making the thread, for exactly the reasons you cite. Theoretically it should reduce overhealing (if every heal that everyone has is instant, then there is no chance of a heal landing on your target while you are still casting), but I don't think we play with enough haste for anything approaching that kind of effect to occur, like you point out. And like you say, just because your heal lands before a heal from someone else does not really mean reduced overhealing, just a shifting of the burden.

- Cycles :
I haven't done much maths about it but there "could" be some haste level values for healing cycles. I see you approach the idea, but do not bite in. And I feel it's a dangerous topic. :)
For example as holy, 14.5% haste + Raid buffs allow you to keep a tight CoH + 4 [FH/Prom/Renew] cycle (might have to adjust with lag and such), and 37.4% haste + Raid buffs will give you the CoH + 5 [FH/Prom/Renew] cycle.
With haste values in between, you have to choose between wasting a little time to wait for CoH, or cast an additional filler spell and reduce your overall CoH use.
Don't get me wrong: getting more haste is always valuable! Simply its benefit is not linear, that's why I'm interested in such values.
You can complicate things if you include PoH with serendipity, and this is mostly interesting for aura damage fights, while it loses its appeal for reactive spot healing.
As for Discipline, healing doesn't really have cycles, since tossing shields around when you can is always a good idea, and penance is not used every cd in all situations.You are right, this should be the second part of the "spells with cooldowns" section, I just wasn't sure how to address it properly. The stepwise function of haste is obvious for most DPS classes/specs, but a little trickier for healing (could say the same about many things). Your example for CoH + 4xGCD and CoH + 5xGCD is a good starting place for me to make an update to the spells with cooldowns section of my original post.



#23 Squeakster

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 11:35 PM

Thanks, I'm sure this won't be the last time I use it.

In the interest of good scientific practices the code I used is below:

...

So with all of the usual disclaimers about sample size, etc., from this parse the values I get are 32.8% overheal on regular, 45.5% overheal on crits. In playing with these numbers, I realized that my earlier formula for the effectiveness of crit has problems. To try to make sense of these numbers I'm going to use the formula below for the percent increase in effective healing from 1% crit. C is current crit percentage, a_r is the regular overheal rate, a_c is the critical overheal rate, m is a binary variable indicating the presence of the meta, and k is a regularization constant to account for haste, spellpower and basically anything else other than crit percentage.

http://elitistjerks.com/cgi-bin/mathtex.cgi?\frac{k(0.99-c)(1-a_r) + k(0.01+c)(1.5(1-a_c)+0.45)}{k(1-c)(1-a_r) + k©(1.5(1-a_c)+0.45)}-1


Using the values supplied I get 0.65%

Assuming these values are also reasonable assumptions for holy (which is a big assumption):

http://elitistjerks.com/cgi-bin/mathtex.cgi?\frac{k(0.99-c)(1-a_r) + k(0.01+c)(1.5(1-a_c))}{k(1-c)(1-a_r) + k©(1.5(1-a_c))}-1


yields 0.20%. The file I parsed also contained a holy priest for a few fights, the results there were c=.23, a_r=.42, a_c=.53 and this also yields very close to 0.2%.

There are a few things that are important to note in these calculations. First these are not pseudo-power weightings or anything like that. A value of 0.65% means adding 1% crit should increase effective healing by 0.65%. 1% increase in spellpower (~33 for the character being parsed) should increase effective healing by a little more than 0.48% (adjusted for the frequency of overheals since SP doesn't increase the amount healed on an overheal). It's "a little more" because even on an overheal, DA is increased with spellpower.

I would like to do the spellpower calculation more carefully and work in the effect of the , but I'm going to hold off in case someone finds a mistake in all of this. This suggests that 1 point of crit rating is worth about 1 point of spellpower for disc and 0.3 spellpower for holy.

I think this form of analysis has a lot of potential though. Examining parses and trying to guess what throughput would have been if stats were different could be a very powerful technique -- similar to simcraft but for healing.

---
Edit: I found a mistake in the spellpower calculation. It should be correct now, the numbers make a lot more sense.


Thank you for doing the leg work on this, it is definitely outside my area of expertise. All of your math looks good to my untrained eye.

One question, how did you translate the 33 SP increase into a 0.48% increase in effective healing? I'm thinking this would be a complicated calculation because of the different coefficients that different spells have.

And while I agree with your conclusion that the data shows that 1 point of crit rating is worth about 1 point of spell power for disc, I just want to point out to the general readers of this thread looking for guidance that spell power and combat ratings have different item budgets, and when that difference is taken into account what you are really choosing between is 1/0.86 = 1.16 spell power versus 1 crit rating. Although that does not take into account the benefit DA gives to smoothing about damage spikes on the tank.

I really like your thinking about examining combat logs directly to determine the value of different throughput stats; I think Nicene was beating around the same bush in an earlier post as well. I think it would be even better than simcraft because the results would be tailor made for the player, not just based on a set of assumptions and the players gear. We have always attempted to calculate stat weightings based on a large set of assumptions and then throw in an asterisk, saying the real value depends on your particular play style, raid makeup, etc.

One can imagine a website or downloadable program where you could upload your combat log and have it spit out specific stat weightings for your exact performance. Or even better, it could save every log you upload (the relevant parts at least) and base the calculations on multiple raids, multiple days, etc., for an even more comprehensive analysis.

Specific results for the individual player, not just a general stat weight.

Although that sounds like more work than I am interested in doing, haha.

----------

Before I do some crunching on my end, can I get some confirmation on relevant characteristics for DA?

1. DA total is capped at 10000

2. DA lasts 12s and that is refreshed each time the effect occurs

3. DA is absorbed "first", that is before Sacred Shield, PWS, AMS, etc?

4. All critical heals contribute to DA, regardless of overheal (I just tested this in game so it should be the case).

5. The combat log does not differentiate between absorbs.

Sorry if this is remedial, but I'm trying to write a quick parser for DA caps and I want to make sure my assumptions are well founded.


I concur with Kamaia that numbers 2, 4 and 5 are correct. I have not personally tested number 1, but the patch notes from 3.1 state:

Divine Aegis: Divine Aegis effects will now stack, however the amount absorbed cannot exceed 125*level (of the target). It will also now take into account total healing including overhealing.

Which at level 80 would be 125*80 = 10,000. I assume this is still how it works, unless they stealth changed it at some point.

I'm actually not sure about which absorb effects are used up first, that would be a good experiment.

#24 Richelieu

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 02:42 AM

One can imagine a website or downloadable program where you could upload your combat log and have it spit out specific stat weightings for your exact performance. Or even better, it could save every log you upload (the relevant parts at least) and base the calculations on multiple raids, multiple days, etc., for an even more comprehensive analysis.


Maybe I'm missing something, but -- isn't the problem with this approach that it will produce stat weightings biased toward the player's preconceived notion of what spell mix/rotation is optimal?

#25 kamaia

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 05:07 AM

Maybe I'm missing something, but -- isn't the problem with this approach that it will produce stat weightings biased toward the player's preconceived notion of what spell mix/rotation is optimal?


Yes, if it were implemented ideally, it would give stat weightings for the conditions under which an individual heals. It would not say that he/she was casting the wrong spells -- just how to gear for the wrong spells he/she's casting.

Thank you for doing the leg work on this, it is definitely outside my area of expertise. All of your math looks good to my untrained eye.

One question, how did you translate the 33 SP increase into a 0.48% increase in effective healing? I'm thinking this would be a complicated calculation because of the different coefficients that different spells have.

And while I agree with your conclusion that the data shows that 1 point of crit rating is worth about 1 point of spell power for disc, I just want to point out to the general readers of this thread looking for guidance that spell power and combat ratings have different item budgets, and when that difference is taken into account what you are really choosing between is 1/0.86 = 1.16 spell power versus 1 crit rating. Although that does not take into account the benefit DA gives to smoothing about damage spikes on the tank.


Yeah, let me just say very clearly that everything I'm posting in this thread is a work in progress. If you're just looking for a quick answer (rather than interesting questions) go with the guide and not my post above. At some point I hope to feel strongly enough about this approach that it gets incorporated into the guides, but it's not there yet. I do believe that crit is very strong for disc, but this should be vetted by more people than me before it becomes gospel.

The spellpower calculation was very back of the envelope and I'd like to do it "correctly" at some point. I thought I made that clear in the post, but re-reading it now I see I should have been more explicit about this. I made two assumptions in coming up with the 33 SP -> 0.48% ratio. The first one, which is probably not very big, is that I ignored the boundary cases where a non-overheal gets turned into an overheal. The second is I ignored the base heals of spells, so I simply said that 1% increase in spellpower would increase all non-overheals by 1%. 52% of the direct heals in the parse had some overhealing, and I looked up the disc priest from the parse on the armory and he had ~3300 sp unbuffed.

#26 mutagen

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 06:49 AM

One can imagine a website or downloadable program where you could upload your combat log and have it spit out specific stat weightings for your exact performance.


Before you go too far down this path you might check out shaman_hep and the accompanying EJ thread, It appears to be fairly well regarded and may even serve as a decent starting point for a priest tool.

My two (not-so-informed) sents.


#27 Elimbras

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 02:07 PM

- Holy concentration uptime :
This is basicaly the same idea but for holy and regen, haste will also increase your chance to keep holy concentration up (depending on how you manage your prom/coh/filler use of course). And it scales with crit for that matter as well. So it's not a straigth mana consumption increase there.Good point again, and I will add this to my original post.


I really don't like the kind of argument saying "Haste increases the number of heals you cast, therefore your holy concentration uptime".
Technically, this is really true.
But the effect is marginal, and people shall not count on it. If you want to increase your holy concentration uptime, you gear for crit, and/or you change your spells selections (with short spells that can trigger it). You don't gem for haste.
The gain in holy concentration uptime is far from the loss of the increased number of cast.

Just for a quick numerical evaluation :
HC is an 8s buff that procs after any crit.
I'll take the best situation for haste : the charater currently has no haste, 30% crit, and can choose between 10% haste and 10% crit.
He maintains a cycle of 1 POM - 1 COH - Renew - Renew - SOL-FH, that takes roughly 8s (including lag).
In 8s, 2 spells can triggers HC.
The current downtime is 0.7^2 = 0.49. Uptime is 51%.

With 10% more crit, downtime is 0.6^2 = 0.36. Uptime is 64%. The gain is 13% uptime.
With 10% haste, the character can know cast 2.2 HC-friendly spells per 8s. Downtime is 0.7^2.2=0.456. Uptime is 54.4%. The gain is 3.4% uptime for 10% haste, in a really favorable scenario.

#28 Baptistin

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 08:22 AM

I'll take the best situation for haste : the charater currently has no haste, 30% crit, and can choose between 10% haste and 10% crit..


Only error I see in your statement is the 10% crit vs 10% haste. Haste and crit have different rating numbers for 1% gain. Therefore we should be comparing say 200 crit rating to 200 haste rating, as items are weighted based upon rating numbers not percentages.

I do believe that crit is very strong for disc, but this should be vetted by more people than me before it becomes gospel.


I'm following this discussion mostly to try and verify my belief in this as well. :) Think I might have to finally resocket crit for int for the LK.... tearing my mana pools apart.

#29 enqi

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 01:06 PM

It feels like the thread has drifted off abit.

Remember, You "can only" heal as much as there is need for which is why I'd consider discussions as this one to be pretty useless.


Healing has too many factors involved to say "this is the best" for example, what healing setup, what encounter, how good is your group (bad tank/people tanking fires). Discussions as this one is really only viable for one thing which is heavy aoe encounters which of we only have two bosses (in ICC) of excluding a few phases such as "phase 1" of Festergut etc.

As I've told every priest who've asked me for tips so far including guildies asking for tips, the best way is to try and balance things, Holy wise a decent balance of Int, Spi and Haste (in my opinion) is the stats to try and balance whilst crit and spellpower fall abit behind in the current content. When you reach Hardmodes I'd consider Haste to be slightly better until you reach around a 1000 and the "DR" really starts to kick in for real. For example my Penance is currently at 1.5 sec and casting up a PW:S for Borrowed Time which is 25% haste only decreases it with 0.2 sec or so. Getting "GCD capped" would be considered valueable, but is it really worth sacrificing so much to get there, you're talking hundreds of spellpower, int, spirit you'd have to sacrifice to gain those 0.1 seconds which you, more than 50% of the time don't really need?

#30 Squeakster

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 05:40 PM

The spellpower calculation was very back of the envelope and I'd like to do it "correctly" at some point. I thought I made that clear in the post, but re-reading it now I see I should have been more explicit about this. I made two assumptions in coming up with the 33 SP -> 0.48% ratio. The first one, which is probably not very big, is that I ignored the boundary cases where a non-overheal gets turned into an overheal. The second is I ignored the base heals of spells, so I simply said that 1% increase in spellpower would increase all non-overheals by 1%. 52% of the direct heals in the parse had some overhealing, and I looked up the disc priest from the parse on the armory and he had ~3300 sp unbuffed.


That makes sense, thanks for the explanation.

-----------

Before you go too far down this path you might check out shaman_hep and the accompanying EJ thread, It appears to be fairly well regarded and may even serve as a decent starting point for a priest tool.


It appears that the Shamans have beaten us to the punch. This is exactly the kind of thing I was thinking about, thank you for calling our attention to it Mutagen.

The page for shaman_hep states, "This program is written in Perl and needs a Perl interpreter," so I guess we need someone knowledgeable in Perl to adapt it to Priest healing. I wonder how difficult it would be? I would imagine it wouldn't be too bad, just changing spell names and some of the variables. Although I bet parsing absorb effects would require some work.

#31 Squeakster

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 06:51 PM

I really don't like the kind of argument saying "Haste increases the number of heals you cast, therefore your holy concentration uptime".
Technically, this is really true.
But the effect is marginal, and people shall not count on it. If you want to increase your holy concentration uptime, you gear for crit, and/or you change your spells selections (with short spells that can trigger it). You don't gem for haste.
The gain in holy concentration uptime is far from the loss of the increased number of cast.

Just for a quick numerical evaluation :
HC is an 8s buff that procs after any crit.
I'll take the best situation for haste : the charater currently has no haste, 30% crit, and can choose between 10% haste and 10% crit.
He maintains a cycle of 1 POM - 1 COH - Renew - Renew - SOL-FH, that takes roughly 8s (including lag).
In 8s, 2 spells can triggers HC.
The current downtime is 0.7^2 = 0.49. Uptime is 51%.

With 10% more crit, downtime is 0.6^2 = 0.36. Uptime is 64%. The gain is 13% uptime.
With 10% haste, the character can know cast 2.2 HC-friendly spells per 8s. Downtime is 0.7^2.2=0.456. Uptime is 54.4%. The gain is 3.4% uptime for 10% haste, in a really favorable scenario.


I agree that the effect of haste on Holy Concentration uptime is significantly less than the effect of crit and that the cost of that extra two-tenths of a spell will far outweigh the regen gained from higher Holy Concentration uptime, but that doesn't make it irrelevant. The goal of this thread is to develop an understanding of the effects of haste as fully as possible, which means accounting for all of the effects, even though some are smaller than others.

Going along with your numbers, which look like a sound approximation to me, and assuming 1800 Int and 1500 Spirit, spirit based regen provides 0.016725*1500*(1800)^(.5) = 1064 mp5 outside the five second rule or when Holy Concentration is up, and 1064/2 = 532 mp5 inside the five second rule. Assuming 90% of time is spent inside the five second rule and 51% HC uptime, one's overall regen would be 1064*0.1 + 532*0.9*0.49 + 1064*0.9*0.51 = 829 mp5. Increasing HC uptime to 54.4% makes that calculation 846 mp5, a 17 mp5 increase for 10% haste. Yes it is minor, but I want this to be comprehensive.

---------
My responses in bold:

It feels like the thread has drifted off abit.

Remember, You "can only" heal as much as there is need for which is why I'd consider discussions as this one to be pretty useless. If you would prefer to avoid such a "useless" thread and continue healing however you see fit, then please do. But if you would like to contribute to the discussion, then by all means, post something constructive.

The idea that "you can only heal as much as there is need for" is broached in the original post in the context of mana usage. It would appear from your statement that you are trying to argue that adding haste provides no benefit whatsoever because the amount of damage needed to be healed over the course of the encounter does not change as well. I will assume you are not trying to say that, because obviously that is absurd.



Healing has too many factors involved to say "this is the best" for example, what healing setup, what encounter, how good is your group (bad tank/people tanking fires). Discussions as this one is really only viable for one thing which is heavy aoe encounters which of we only have two bosses (in ICC) of excluding a few phases such as "phase 1" of Festergut etc. Yes, the value of haste in healing is an extremely complicated and difficult nut to crack, but that does not make it unworthy of our efforts. My goal for this thread is not to boil the entire debate down to one sentence proclaiming that one stat or technique is superior to all others. The goal is to more fully develop our understanding of the way haste affects how we play and our success in raiding. I fail to see how that only applies to situations with lots of AoE damage. Haste affects almost all aspects of our gameplay, regardless of the way damage is dealt in the particular encounter.

As I've told every priest who've asked me for tips so far including guildies asking for tips, the best way is to try and balance things, Holy wise a decent balance of Int, Spi and Haste (in my opinion) is the stats to try and balance whilst crit and spellpower fall abit behind in the current content. Do you have any math, data, or logical reasoning behind these statements? I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying that we are here to discuss these things, and if you make unsuported statements like this it gets us nowhere. Additionally, the goal of this thread is not to eventually print out some unequivocal, never-changing set of stat weightings for every stat that appears on our gear. Balancing longevity stats like spirit and intellect with throughput stats is an entirely different and complicated question.

When you reach Hardmodes I'd consider Haste to be slightly better until you reach around a 1000 and the "DR" really starts to kick in for real. What? First of all, you are making the fallacious argument that somehow hard modes have a special requirement for haste that does not exist for other stats or for normal modes. This is something I explicitly talk about in the original post. There is nothing special about haste in regards to hard modes. And the diminishing returns only start to "kick in for real" after 1000 haste? Where is your math for that? There is nothing special about 1000 haste, the diminishing returns are always present.

For example my Penance is currently at 1.5 sec and casting up a PW:S for Borrowed Time which is 25% haste only decreases it with 0.2 sec or so. You need to check your math here. If your Penance is 1.5 second cast time you are running with a total of 33% haste. Borrowed Time will give you an additional 25% haste, making the new cast time 2/(1.33*1.25) = 1.2 seconds, a savings of 0.3 seconds.

Getting "GCD capped" would be considered valueable, but is it really worth sacrificing so much to get there, you're talking hundreds of spellpower, int, spirit you'd have to sacrifice to gain those 0.1 seconds which you, more than 50% of the time don't really need? First of all, nobody here is saying that every priest needs to 1 second GCDs at all costs. We are not even saying that haste is better than other throughput stats. Secondly, you say that you would rather have spell power, intellect and spirit rather than enough haste to reach 1 second GCD's, but you provide absolutely no reasoning, math, or data to back this up. You want us to just take your word on it? And how did you decide that 50% of the time you do not need to take 0.1 seconds off your GCD?



#32 The Not So Evil

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 07:07 PM

The page for shaman_hep states, "This program is written in Perl and needs a Perl interpreter," so I guess we need someone knowledgeable in Perl to adapt it to Priest healing. I wonder how difficult it would be? I would imagine it wouldn't be too bad, just changing spell names and some of the variables. Although I bet parsing absorb effects would require some work.


It is possible with some work to achieve a similar result for Rawr using the Custom Role option. I still don't have T10 2pc and 4pc added, but from the logs I've seen so far, 2pc is more or less a 11% increase on FH and 4pc is more or less useless due to limitations from circumstances.
Rawr - Coder of HolyPriest (Healer) and ShadowPriest (DPS) Modules.
Get Your Rawr 2.3.x!

#33 enqi

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 07:56 PM

Just out of sheer curiousity, Squeakster. No offense.

How are you supposed to crack this "nut" which changes equation every second you're pulling, your guildmates dps, your tanks do an attack, the encounter mechanics. The amount of scenarios you'd have to take into account would be too much for any human being to handle. The only thing you can "assume" is how much haste will give you on a few handful of encounters in ICC.

I'm not against this topic, I like it. It's a summary of what me and firstaidspec was discussing not to long ago in the compendium. I'm just saying, all we need is a estimate of how haste balances out on;
1) "PoM, Renew, CoH encounters"
2) "PoM, CoH, PoH encounters"
3) "FH, GH, CoH, PoM encounters"
4) "Everything in your arsenal encounters"
5) "Shield spam encounters"
6) "FH, Penance, Shield, GH encounters"

All we really can discuss on the subject is how much are we going to get out of each spell in an optimal encounter, what I listed is as we all know some of the most common ones.

#34 Nicene

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 08:47 PM

Just out of sheer curiousity, Squeakster. No offense.

How are you supposed to crack this "nut" which changes equation every second you're pulling, your guildmates dps, your tanks do an attack, the encounter mechanics. The amount of scenarios you'd have to take into account would be too much for any human being to handle. The only thing you can "assume" is how much haste will give you on a few handful of encounters in ICC.


Same way we do for DPS. theorycraft, sim and estimate (the comparative static estimation a la shamanHEP is most promising). The goal isn't to gather a complete accounting but to get a little beyond the "hand wave" explanation for haste valuation.

#35 tsigo

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 10:26 PM

The page for shaman_hep states, "This program is written in Perl and needs a Perl interpreter," so I guess we need someone knowledgeable in Perl to adapt it to Priest healing. I wonder how difficult it would be? I would imagine it wouldn't be too bad, just changing spell names and some of the variables. Although I bet parsing absorb effects would require some work.


God damn it, Perl. The entire thing's in one single file that's almost 30,000 lines. A quarter of that is probably comments, but still. Yecchhhhh. You'd be better off starting from scratch.

#36 Elimbras

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 12:10 AM

Same way we do for DPS. theorycraft, sim and estimate (the comparative static estimation a la shamanHEP is most promising). The goal isn't to gather a complete accounting but to get a little beyond the "hand wave" explanation for haste valuation.



We can definitely say things.
But compared to dps, which have a cycle and tend to spam it in most encounters (with some movement, or adds focus sometimes), we don't have it, and every encounter is a new theorycraft for us.
That doesn't mean that theorycraft has no value at all, but we shall be really careful with its assumptions before using it.
For example, Bobturkey's stats weighting and gear ranking is interesting, but because of its assumptions, I really prefer the "Take any iLVL increase" rule as holy priest, as long as the new gear doesn't have any hit (and if possible, MP5). I can find a fair use of all other stats. The distortion made by the strong assumptions (flash heal spam, MP5<->spellpower conversion) is in my mind greater than the difference in the final weighting.
Only exception is trinkets, where I use the difference to adapt to my current gear options and encounters. and where ilvl is sometimes meaningless (hello Solace).

#37 Nicene

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 12:13 AM

The page for shaman_hep states, "This program is written in Perl and needs a Perl interpreter," so I guess we need someone knowledgeable in Perl to adapt it to Priest healing. I wonder how difficult it would be? I would imagine it wouldn't be too bad, just changing spell names and some of the variables. Although I bet parsing absorb effects would require some work.


Pivoting off the complaint above (not quoted), the file is gargantuan. Most of it is declarations for the various spell weights, talents, and items which might show up in the combat log. You should be able to read it with any bare bones text editor. Depending on your OS, you might even be able to run the program (e.g. if you have a mac or run lunix, you've got perl installed already).

#38 Eddyqw

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 02:00 AM

Spell power is a little trickier because different spells have different coefficients. A full listing of Priest spell coefficients can be found at Spell power coefficient - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft. Perhaps the best I can do is give an example of a spell with a coefficient of 80.68% (PWS, Flash Heal, PoM and others have this coefficient):

Example (Flash Heal)
((1887+2193)/2 + .8068*0) = 2040.0
((1887+2193)/2 + .8068*100) = 2120.7


We see that an increase in 100 Spell Power yields a 2120.7/2040 = 1.0396, or a 3.96% increase in healing. This is also a 3.96% increase in HPS regardless of cast times because the cast times between the two spells are equal and would cancel out.


This is quite misleading in my view; you have based your percentage increase upon the assumption that you begin with zero spellpower. Using an equally arbitrary baseline of 4,000sp, the extra 100sp would only add 1.53% to your healing done/HPS.

But we cannot neglect the itemization cost of the three stats. Haste rating and Critical Strike rating have equal 1.00 StatMods when it comes to item budgets. However, the conversion between rating and percentage are different between the two. Specifically, 32.79 haste rating equals 1% haste, while 45.91 crit rating equals 1% crit. This means that crit rating is 40% (45.91/32.79) more expensive than haste rating. So when considering gems/gear, note that the choice is not between 1% haste or 1% crit, but rather between 1.4% haste and 1.0% crit.

Spell power has a StatMod rating of 0.86, meaning that for every 1 haste or crit rating a piece of gear has, it could have 1.16 spell power (1/0.86). In the example I used above a 100 spell power increase resulted in 3.96% higher HPS. That 100 spell power could instead be 100/1.16 = 86.2 haste rating, which is 86.2/32.79 = 2.63% haste. Under the 1%:1% rule, 2.63% haste is a 2.63% HPS increase. So it would appear that gemming for spell power results in a larger increase in healing that haste.


I agree with your conclusion, but (as above) the reasoning seem faulty to me. The most important thing to keep in mind is that spellpower, crit, and haste all increase the value of each other as you gain more. Adding more spellpower makes haste more valuable. Adding haste makes spellpower more valuable - at least for a holy priest - as has been mentioned, disc priests are limited in the value they can extract from haste. There are definitely points at which a point of haste will be more valuable in terms of HPS than a point of spellpower for a holy priest.

Even with this in mind, I still support your conclusion that gemming for spellpower should be the preferred option. We only really get to have true freedom in choosing stats when we choose gems, since all available gear has a certain balance of stamina/intellect/spellpower, and then any two of spirit/crit/haste. When gemming, you can choose regen (i.e. intellect, possibly spirit), or throughput - so crit, haste, or spellpower. Of the three, only one increases the effectiveness of every part of every spell a priest casts - and thats spellpower.

#39 Squeakster

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 04:45 PM

This is quite misleading in my view; you have based your percentage increase upon the assumption that you begin with zero spellpower. Using an equally arbitrary baseline of 4,000sp, the extra 100sp would only add 1.53% to your healing done/HPS.

I agree with your conclusion, but (as above) the reasoning seem faulty to me. The most important thing to keep in mind is that spellpower, crit, and haste all increase the value of each other as you gain more. Adding more spellpower makes haste more valuable. Adding haste makes spellpower more valuable - at least for a holy priest - as has been mentioned, disc priests are limited in the value they can extract from haste. There are definitely points at which a point of haste will be more valuable in terms of HPS than a point of spellpower for a holy priest.

Even with this in mind, I still support your conclusion that gemming for spellpower should be the preferred option. We only really get to have true freedom in choosing stats when we choose gems, since all available gear has a certain balance of stamina/intellect/spellpower, and then any two of spirit/crit/haste. When gemming, you can choose regen (i.e. intellect, possibly spirit), or throughput - so crit, haste, or spellpower. Of the three, only one increases the effectiveness of every part of every spell a priest casts - and thats spellpower.


You know what, you are right. I think I will remove that part of my original post and temporarily put something more vague there. I feel like this discussion really does need a comparison of haste and spell power so I really wanted to include at least something, even if flawed. However, I think what I have there now is just too flawed to really be of use, and is, like you say, misleading. I would ideally love to have something mathematical in there about the relative value of Spell Power, but I'm having trouble thinking of a way to come up with a more general comparison.

The idea that the three throughput stats are interdependent is something I should have been more explicit about.

And for your last point, perhaps the haste vs crit vs SP section should include a subsection specifically on gearing/gemming, stating the 5 possible gear combinations that Nicene posted earlier, as well as something on throughput versus longevity, and also your last point about the broad effectiveness of SP compared to crit and haste.

-------------

God damn it, Perl. The entire thing's in one single file that's almost 30,000 lines. A quarter of that is probably comments, but still. Yecchhhhh. You'd be better off starting from scratch.

Yeah, now that I look at the code maybe it would not be so simple to convert it for our uses. At least we know that the premise is sound and we can be justified in thinking this is a worthwhile approach.

-------------

We can definitely say things.
But compared to dps, which have a cycle and tend to spam it in most encounters (with some movement, or adds focus sometimes), we don't have it, and every encounter is a new theorycraft for us.
That doesn't mean that theorycraft has no value at all, but we shall be really careful with its assumptions before using it.
For example, Bobturkey's stats weighting and gear ranking is interesting, but because of its assumptions, I really prefer the "Take any iLVL increase" rule as holy priest, as long as the new gear doesn't have any hit (and if possible, MP5). I can find a fair use of all other stats. The distortion made by the strong assumptions (flash heal spam, MP5<->spellpower conversion) is in my mind greater than the difference in the final weighting.
Only exception is trinkets, where I use the difference to adapt to my current gear options and encounters. and where ilvl is sometimes meaningless (hello Solace).


I think we all agree that theorycrafting for healers is neither as simple nor as conclusive as theorycrafting for damage dealers. Like you said, everything varies by fight and assumptions like FH spam and mp5<->SP conversions lead to very questionable results, but to me that seems like the exact argument for a tool like shaman_hep; it will provide values based on the your exact spell usage for a specific fight, not based on a series of questionable assumptions like FH spamming.

Like a Richelieu said previously, a tool like shaman_hep would not help very much with deciding what is the best healing strategy or spell usage for a particular encounter, but it would, somewhat conclusively, say exactly how to improve your gear to optimize your performance for that encounter and how you play during it. And that, despite its limitations, is very valuable.

------------------

It is possible with some work to achieve a similar result for Rawr using the Custom Role option.


I had never taken that close of a look at the custom role option, but now that I do it does appear to be somewhat of a halfway step between purely theoretical, assumption based theorycrafting and the combat log parser I am imagining. Being able to specify the exact fight length and how many of each heal you cast is nice, but it does miss some of the things shaman_hep does.

For instance, the crit rates for each type of spell (how often did Improved Flash Heal result in an extra crit?); overheal percentages, both crit and non-crit; how many spells that were cast were haste capped (1 sec GCD); how many times did your target die while you were in the act of casting a heal on him/her;

One could imagine a priest version of shaman_hep to also include things like: what percentage of SoL procs were used, expired, or overwritten; what percentage of FH casts were effected by BT haste (and PWS casts, and GH casts, etc.);

Those are only the things I could think of as I write this, I'm sure there are many more interesting things we could glean from such a combat log parser. The custom role aspect of Rawr is a nice stepping stone, but I think the possibilities are much larger.

#40 The Not So Evil

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 08:03 PM

I had never taken that close of a look at the custom role option, but now that I do it does appear to be somewhat of a halfway step between purely theoretical, assumption based theorycrafting and the combat log parser I am imagining. Being able to specify the exact fight length and how many of each heal you cast is nice, but it does miss some of the things shaman_hep does.

For instance, the crit rates for each type of spell (how often did Improved Flash Heal result in an extra crit?); overheal percentages, both crit and non-crit; how many spells that were cast were haste capped (1 sec GCD); how many times did your target die while you were in the act of casting a heal on him/her;

One could imagine a priest version of shaman_hep to also include things like: what percentage of SoL procs were used, expired, or overwritten; what percentage of FH casts were effected by BT haste (and PWS casts, and GH casts, etc.);

Those are only the things I could think of as I write this, I'm sure there are many more interesting things we could glean from such a combat log parser. The custom role aspect of Rawr is a nice stepping stone, but I think the possibilities are much larger.


How useful is it to know how many more crits imp. FH gave you? I also believe that Overhealing as long as you do not go OOM is not harmful, which means knowing overhealing is not that vital. Spells cast while Haste Capped could be interesting to know, but for the most time, they only happen during Heroism. How many people die when you are trying to heal them is not relevant, as thats pretty generic.

Overwritten SoL procs, BT hasted casts etc could be displayed easily. Don't know if it will change your gearing choices however. And this is perhaps better for a log parser than a theory tool.

The Custom Role is designed to let you know how to improve your Throughput and Sustainability given a specific fight you found challenging. Since we all know the game is highly random based, every fight will not end up being exactly the same, so I did try to avoid having you be too detailed.
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