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A thread full of druids. (Formerly "The point of Feral Attack power?")


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#21 Myonax

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 03:59 PM

The feral item also allows a druid more flexibility in gear while in combat. If you need to go from a feral form to healing in combat you now have the option of grabbing an instant 200 or more +healing from just switching out your offhand + weapon.

#22 Nixphoe

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 09:55 PM

Isn't the spell damage and the feral AP based on two different iLvl values being you can't use both at the same time? I thought I remember seeing a post on this, but when I do a search I get

Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 8388608 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 35 bytes) in /home/877/domains/forums.elitistjerks.com/html/include/dblayer/mysqli.php on line 120

As far as lore goes, how is a druid supposed to get his pawns around a health pot? I suppose there are other pots you could take, but that kind of takes away from out healing ability if we're just going to chug pots rather the popping out for a heal.

#23 Tyvi

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 10:31 PM

Last time I read about this mechanism, it turned out that you get 10% less DPS from FAP than you would have expected going by FAP DPS + Paw DPS = Weapon DPS if the Weapon had no FAP.

Ironically the difference was exactly 10%, and behold, Druids have a talent that gives you +10% physical damage called Natural Weapons. Once again we see a Druid stat that assumes you will have a specific talent specced for it to work out at 100% effectivity. Oh well.

Since I saw the math only done for live Weapons, I'll try to do it for the beta Weapons:

We'll use the Gladiator Maces, since there are two version of them available with the exact same stats except that one has lower Weapon DPS and +FAP (Normal DPS: http://thottbot.com/beta?i=911, DPS with FAP: http://thottbot.com/beta?i=913)

114.6 DPS vs 46.7 FAP DPS +x Paw DPS. Ideally the two values would turn out the same, if it was not for the reason mentioned above (see NW).

Unfortunately I don't know what the base Cat DPS is in TBC (without Natural Weapons), I can only assume that it will be 61.11 DPS (55 DPS @ level 60 - sounds about right) because (114.6 DPS - 46.7 FAP DPS)*0.90 = 61.11.

Can anyone help me confirm/debunk this theory for beta by telling me the Cat DPS at level 70 (nekkid and without NW) please? :)

#24 Quasar

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 11:24 PM

Last time I read about this mechanism, it turned out that you get 10% less DPS from FAP than you would have expected going by FAP DPS + Paw DPS = Weapon DPS if the Weapon had no FAP.

Ironically the difference was exactly 10%, and behold, Druids have a talent that gives you +10% physical damage called Natural Weapons. Once again we see a Druid stat that assumes you will have a specific talent specced for it to work out at 100% effectivity. Oh well.

Hey now, Shaman had the same thing when we had Windfury nerfed drastically in AP and a talent added to boost total damage done with weapons. =P
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#25 samizal

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 11:30 PM

naked cat stats:

http://img.photobuck...SB/nakedcat.jpg

from the beta forums thread: http://forums.worldo...&sid=1&pageNo=1

#26 VIB

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Posted 15 November 2006 - 02:00 AM

Doing a quick math from those naked stats, that cat got 87*2 + 75 = 249 ap = 17.78dps from stats. So his base paw dps should be 97.5 / 1.10 - 17.78 = 70.86 dps

So using the gladiator mace his FAP + paw dps = 46.7 + 70.86 = 117.5 dps, which is a little above the 114.6 dps of the warrior 2h. But only by 2%, so it's almost the same indeed. Nice catch.

One thing I noticed about that mace is that it's melee dps is lower than the warrior 2h by an ammount that it's melee dps + fap dps = exactly the same as the warrior 2h. So a moonkin would hit for exactly the same using one or the other.

But indeed I agree with the OP, they could simply get rid of FAP and add weapon melee dps to forms. I suppose they only didn't do it because they were afraid of unexpected colateral effects such retroactive change could bring to lower levels.
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#27 krucifix85

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Posted 15 November 2006 - 02:09 AM

So... going by that, if they just made all the weapons drop back down to those stats, and change the FAP to all AP, they'd have their universal weapons.

Correct?

(Not suggesting they'd do that, nor that I want it, but just asking the question)

#28 VIB

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Posted 15 November 2006 - 03:32 AM

Exactly. FAP would be converted to weapon DPS, not AP. But yea that's the idea.
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#29 ildon

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Posted 15 November 2006 - 04:22 AM

So... going by that, if they just made all the weapons drop back down to those stats, and change the FAP to all AP, they'd have their universal weapons.

Correct?

(Not suggesting they'd do that, nor that I want it, but just asking the question)

Weapon damage being added to Bloodthirst? I think some fury warriors might not let druids get that item. ;)

Not to mention hunters if it's a dagger/staff.
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#30 Tyvi

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Posted 15 November 2006 - 04:27 AM

Doing a quick math from those naked stats, that cat got 87*2 + 75 = 249 ap = 17.78dps from stats. So his base paw dps should be 97.5 / 1.10 - 17.78 = 70.86 dps

So using the gladiator mace his FAP + paw dps = 46.7 + 70.86 = 117.5 dps, which is a little above the 114.6 dps of the warrior 2h. But only by 2%, so it's almost the same indeed. Nice catch.

If cat really has 70 DPS at level 70, that's a nice (stealth) buff right there :)

#31 Rane

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Posted 15 November 2006 - 04:59 AM

Just to add, I've seen at least one item that had "Feral Combat Skill" rating as a stat. This might be a feral form of +weaponskill, so another (although now minor, with the new interpretation of weaponskill) feral buff on items at least.

No further details at the moment tho.

#32 Tyvi

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Posted 15 November 2006 - 09:29 AM

Just to add, I've seen at least one item that had "Feral Combat Skill" rating as a stat. This might be a feral form of +weaponskill, so another (although now minor, with the new interpretation of weaponskill) feral buff on items at least.

No further details at the moment tho.

That would be the Earthwarden I guess.

#33 Zephro

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Posted 15 November 2006 - 10:42 AM

As far as lore goes, how is a druid supposed to get his pawns around a health pot? I suppose there are other pots you could take, but that kind of takes away from out healing ability if we're just going to chug pots rather the popping out for a heal.

According to Sir David Attenborough, bears are dextrous enough to prise open shellfish to eat.

Otherwise I guess you just throw the whole thing into your mouth and bite it. Bears are too tough to care about swallowing glass shards, anyway :P

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#34 Hamlet

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Posted 15 November 2006 - 01:20 PM

I would suspect this is because feral attack power is a latecomer to the stat game (viz., "Hey, druid DPS needs a scaler here..."), so rather than "Hey, just add +DPS" which potentially could go off kilter on some items or result in some items being unintentionally overvaluated (see: q: why is it bad that barman's shanker, a blue from BRD, was superior to epics from MC?). So rather than open either a massive review of every weapon in game in a new paradigm OR a begging for the players to do so unfavorably in Live, it's vastly less labor intensive to just make some tailored weapons (feral AP weapons), as it's fair to presume they'll be balanced with feral scaling balance in mind.

This is basically it. The orignal game had everything needed to work from 1-60. When they started tackling endgame progression, this was just one of a number of scaling issues that had to be addressed.

#35 Dakous

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Posted 15 November 2006 - 06:16 PM

Otherwise I guess you just throw the whole thing into your mouth and bite it. Bears are too tough to care about swallowing glass shards, anyway :P

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#36 Tyvi

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 06:13 PM

/Resurrect

Just read this on the US Beta Forums:

Did you know that a druid's white DPS in cat form stops going up innately at level 60?

That's right, you still have a base DPS of ~55 at level 66, and I asked another druid at 68 and his was also 55...this is the same as it is at level 60.

Your damage goes up as you gain stats with level, just like every other class...but your white DPS doesn't scale with level like it did 10-60.

(If you still don't get what I mean, I'm saying that the base DPS- stripped of all attack power- is still the same, it's only your stats that go up, and they go up the exact same way everyone else's does)

Just letting you all know, as I'm seeing alot of druids say we "scale with level but don't scale with gear".

Admittedly, as you level you gain new ranks, but the scaling of Shred (feral talens of course) right now is about on par with a rogue w/Imp. Backstab, Opportunity, and Lethality. In fact, it's better as our "main hand" DPS is higher, but the rogue doesn't have to sacrifice energy (mangle) to keep his #'s up, and our white damage overall is less due to lack of dual weild.

But just thought I'd dispel a druid myth for you all =)

So he says that Cat DPS minus AP and talents stays at 55 DPS which is not what we calculated in this thread. I also talked to two Druids (70 and 67) and asked them about their DPS in Cat and substracted their AP from it and divided by 1.1 (due to Natural Weapons) and the base DPS of the level 70 was ~68 DPS.

So my question to those who can check it for themselves: Is the above poster only posting BS or am I wrong with my calculations?

#37 Beyr

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 07:45 PM

The naked cat posted earlier had 474 attack power. Thats 33.857 additional DPS. The DPS of the cat, minus NW is 97.5/1.1 = 88.63. Subtracting the DPS from AP give us 88.63 - 33.857 = 54.77 DPS base.

Doing the same calculations with my druid on live I get a base paw DPS of 54.8. There seems to be no change is cat base DPS from 60-70, unless I did some calculations wrong.

#38 Tyvi

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 08:02 PM

The naked cat posted earlier had 474 attack power. Thats 33.857 additional DPS. The DPS of the cat, minus NW is 97.5/1.1 = 88.63. Subtracting the DPS from AP give us 88.63 - 33.857 = 54.77 DPS base.

Doing the same calculations with my druid on live I get a base paw DPS of 54.8. There seems to be no change is cat base DPS from 60-70, unless I did some calculations wrong.

Ah well, what a shame. Since there are loads of weapons with +FAP it is no big deal the base paw DPS does not scale, but there is another thing that's bothering me:

Paw DPS + FAP DPS does not equal the original DPS of the Weapon it emulates. Going back to the Calculation done here with the Gladiator Mace, it falls 10% DPS short (114.6 DPS vs 46.7 FAP DPS +55 Paw DPS = 114.6 DPS vs 101.7 DPS), so Natural Weapons has to compensate for that.

So basically we look at something like this for Feral:

NW - Required to be on par, it is NOT a bonus.
HotW (+Sta) - Required to be on par with Bear due to Druid PvP gear having less Stamina than other classes. It is NOT a bonus.

Exactly where do we see the Druid buffs in mechanics and itemization if Blizz is designing items around talents to begin with?

#39 Vhal

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 08:06 PM

Feral AP gives a static DPS increase, just like a weapon would. There are advantages in the feral weapon system, as well - you need very little +hit on your gear. (Was it 9% like hunters? Compared to the 24% that DW classes need, that's nothing.)

Responding to a somewhat aged post, but still...

Shouldn't having a higher cap for +hit be considered a good thing? You don't really need a certain level of hit (speaking as a rogue, at least), but being able to get significant benefit from the stat up to 24% seems to be an advantage in itemization as opposed to being capped significantly lower. I gear myself primarily as a PvP rogue, so hit isn't really high on my list, and I've still got +15% hit. It just seems to me that if I only gained benefit up to +9%, my gear choices would, overall, be worse than they are now; as such, it seems to me that being able to gain benefit from 24% of hit is superior to only being able to gain benefit for 9%.

#40 Motw

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 10:04 PM

Feral AP gives a static DPS increase, just like a weapon would. There are advantages in the feral weapon system, as well - you need very little +hit on your gear. (Was it 9% like hunters? Compared to the 24% that DW classes need, that's nothing.)

Responding to a somewhat aged post, but still...

Shouldn't having a higher cap for +hit be considered a good thing? You don't really need a certain level of hit (speaking as a rogue, at least), but being able to get significant benefit from the stat up to 24% seems to be an advantage in itemization as opposed to being capped significantly lower. I gear myself primarily as a PvP rogue, so hit isn't really high on my list, and I've still got +15% hit. It just seems to me that if I only gained benefit up to +9%, my gear choices would, overall, be worse than they are now; as such, it seems to me that being able to gain benefit from 24% of hit is superior to only being able to gain benefit for 9%.

Well +to hit still takes up part of an items value. You would have to look at its cost and compare the DPS gains to the gains from straight AP. I can tell you with certainty though that dual wield is still an advantage over a single weapon as far as white dmg scaling.




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