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A thread full of druids. (Formerly "The point of Feral Attack power?")


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#41 Pane

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 08:06 AM

if the FAP on some items was 'normal' AP those items would be bizarly overpowered in the hands of hunters (staffs) or rogues/warriors (all those instants with that much AP). rather than having to balance for that they made a seperate stat.

edit: my argument would have made more sense had i been able to link a staff with feral AP but can't find one.

/chews on foot

#42 Boevis

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 08:26 AM

Well, there's Atiesh ...
http://wow.allakhaza...tml?witem=22632
But that's the Druid Only version.

Here's one, dunno where it's from. http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=15706 . There's actually a good deal of staves with just FAP on them, do a search on Thottbot Beta for staves between ilevel 100 and 116

#43 Anaram

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 08:44 AM

I think TBC cruids (in cat form) are the highest yellow DPS melee attacker currently in the common scenarios. I might be wrong and won't go into providing math here but I'm fairly convinced that's the case. A significant portion of a druid's yellow damage attacks do not factor in weapon damage, however, so it sort of makes sense that druid weapons should come with attack power rather than direct damage (where rogues use slice'n'dice which scales with weapon damage druids use rip which is fully attack power based).

Druid white damage, however, is largely the equivalent of someone wielding a twohander - generally far inferior to dual wielding.

I think feral attack power plays nicely to druid strengths and as such is a mechanic which has a proper place in gameplay. I think it's also justified that attack power does not fully compensate for the DPS difference from twohander to onehander as attack power does have slightly more utility than weapon damage (it scales with unleashed fury and affects finishers).

#44 Tyvi

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 10:05 AM

So am I the only one bothered by the fact that +FAP weapons are 10% less effective by design compared to other melee weapons?

And to the above poster: Even IF (and that is a big IF) Druids can produce the highest yellow numbers currently, they won't do so for long. Druid scaling was always good upfront but lagged behind when everyone got geared (let's hope it changes in TBC; Mangle is a good start).

#45 Pane

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 10:19 AM

hybrid gear tends to be weaker than 'pure class' gear so no major surprise there, tbh.

as far as I've read, feral druids will compete very nicely in dps with rogues and fury wars. However, there will ALWAYS be a penalty for the fact that you can pop out of form and heal.

#46 Lavode

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 10:27 AM

Math on manglebuffed feral scaling is pretty clear, and it certainly looks equal to the scaling factor all other melee dps gets. So unless feral gets shafted via itemisation, and the multiple choise set system would make that unlikely, we dont have anything much to worry about. Well.. windfury possibly? But it looks like they are intending to give us that.

#47 Anaram

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 10:47 AM

So am I the only one bothered by the fact that +FAP weapons are 10% less effective by design compared to other melee weapons?

And to the above poster: Even IF (and that is a big IF) Druids can produce the highest yellow numbers currently, they won't do so for long. Druid scaling was always good upfront but lagged behind when everyone got geared (let's hope it changes in TBC; Mangle is a good start).

Frankly I don't see any problem with feral yellow damage scaling, could you explain what the problem is?

#48 Boevis

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 11:44 AM

I also don't know where you're getting the "10% less effective by design" The Dreanic Wildstaff for example, has a good 22% higher item value (in exchange for having a lower DPS) AND THEN has the 423 FAP. Every stat on it benefits Feral DPS. Hardly 10% less effective.

A Feral Druid relies on his forms to do damage
A Balance Druid relies on his spells to do damage
A Resto Druid relies on other people to do damage :D

For all druids, the base DPS of our weapon is there as a backup when we run out of mana, in exchange for lowering the effect of the weapon itself we (and all casters) get more stats on it than would normally be allowed, making our primary methods that much more effective. Blizzard caps how low the weapon can get for balance reasons (if Soulseeker, iLevel 89 off Kelthuzad, had 0 DPS instead of 63.7 it could have an extra +170 spell damage on it, hardly balanced)

#49 Tyvi

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 02:24 PM

So am I the only one bothered by the fact that +FAP weapons are 10% less effective by design compared to other melee weapons?

And to the above poster: Even IF (and that is a big IF) Druids can produce the highest yellow numbers currently, they won't do so for long. Druid scaling was always good upfront but lagged behind when everyone got geared (let's hope it changes in TBC; Mangle is a good start).

Frankly I don't see any problem with feral yellow damage scaling, could you explain what the problem is?

My bad, it looks as if a Mangled Shred could actually outscale the Rogue's backstab in raids, so I am mistaken on that part (I assumed otherwise because it does in live and I got the white damage of Rogues confused in here because they do get more DPS per 1 AP with SnD and Dual Wield). :)

So yes indeed, a Druid might get the bigger yellow damage hits/crits. (And now the part addressing Boevis' post) But that is only assuming Druid Weapons will scale as much as the Rogues weapon, for example if a Rogue gets a Dagger with 100 DPS, 20 Str and 20 Agi, a Druid should also be able to get a Mace with 55 DPS and 630 Feral AP (that's +45 DPS for a total of 100 DPS), 20 Str and 20 Agi. However currently this is not the case unless you have Naturalist/Natural Weapons specced (which you will probably do if you are not full balance, but it's just the point that this system is stupid).

Case in point, check out the Gladiator maces:

Warrior version
Druid version

Note that all stats but Weapon DPS and +FAP are identical. The itemlevel is the same as well, so you'd expect them to give both classes the same DPS increase, right? Unfortunately, that is not true:

Warrior version gives you 114.6 DPS. Druid version gives you 67.8 DPS +654 FAP (=46.7 DPS) for a total of 114.5 DPS. Close enough, eh? But that is only if a Moonkin swings the mace because he uses both AP and actual weapon DPS. Cats, however, do not have an innate paw DPS of 67.8, they only got 55 DPS. 55 DPS + 46.7 DPS is 101.7.

To sum it up, a Warrior gains 114.6 DPS and a Cat will gain 101.7 DPS, which means a Druid gains roughly 11% less DPS from the weapon compared to a Warrior. Now, it is not a coincidence NW increases your DPS by 10%, is it? With NS, the Druid gets 112 DPS from the weapon which is close enough to the base DPS of the Warrior mace.
That is what I meant with Druid weapons being 10% less effective compared to other melee weapons. Why is Blizzard requiring a talent so that items actually work at 100% effictivity? Granted, being forced to spec Naturalist in Beta is no big deal due to the HT synergy, however it still boggles my mind items are designed with such talents in mind. I always considered talents to be the icing on the cake, not the basis of the cake itself (if you get the horrible analogy :P).

It's especially bad if you compare the PvP sets: Druids gain the lowest Stamina from all classes (177), most classes gain 216 Stamina expect for Warriors, Priests and Warlocks who gain slightly more. The difference between the Druid Sta value on the other classes is roughly 20%. And, you guessed it, HotW increases your HP in bear by 20%. What is with that? I don't see Warlocks having a penalty built-in in their PvP set because they can increase their Stamina by 15% via a talent. Can someone explain me the reasoning of this? ._.

#50 Vhal

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 02:30 PM

Well +to hit still takes up part of an items value. You would have to look at its cost and compare the DPS gains to the gains from straight AP. I can tell you with certainty though that dual wield is still an advantage over a single weapon as far as white dmg scaling.

I think you're missing the point.

The poster I responded to was listing less useful points of hit to be an advantage for a druid; I'm arguing that this really isn't the case, as it places an additional limitation on the dps you can get from gear. Yes, you can fundamentally convert the value of hit to AP. Then you multiply that by how many points of hit are useful to you, and you get a certain amount of "virtual AP" that is possible from hit gear. This pool is bigger for a dual wielder, so it imposes less limitation on how one can gain benefit from gear.

It just seems to me that the meme of "single weapons needing less hit is good" is incorrect, and the truth of the matter is "dual wielding has more potential gain from hit gear which is good".

#51 Pyros

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 03:00 PM

So am I the only one bothered by the fact that +FAP weapons are 10% less effective by design compared to other melee weapons?

And to the above poster: Even IF (and that is a big IF) Druids can produce the highest yellow numbers currently, they won't do so for long. Druid scaling was always good upfront but lagged behind when everyone got geared (let's hope it changes in TBC; Mangle is a good start).

Frankly I don't see any problem with feral yellow damage scaling, could you explain what the problem is?

My bad, it looks as if a Mangled Shred could actually outscale the Rogue's backstab in raids, so I am mistaken on that part (I assumed otherwise because it does in live and I got the white damage of Rogues confused in here because they do get more DPS per 1 AP with SnD and Dual Wield). :)

So yes indeed, a Druid might get the bigger yellow damage hits/crits. (And now the part addressing Boevis' post) But that is only assuming Druid Weapons will scale as much as the Rogues weapon, for example if a Rogue gets a Dagger with 100 DPS, 20 Str and 20 Agi, a Druid should also be able to get a Mace with 55 DPS and 630 Feral AP (that's +45 DPS for a total of 100 DPS), 20 Str and 20 Agi. However currently this is not the case unless you have Naturalist/Natural Weapons specced (which you will probably do if you are not full balance, but it's just the point that this system is stupid).

Case in point, check out the Gladiator maces:

Warrior version
Druid version

Note that all stats but Weapon DPS and +FAP are identical. The itemlevel is the same as well, so you'd expect them to give both classes the same DPS increase, right? Unfortunately, that is not true:

Warrior version gives you 114.6 DPS. Druid version gives you 67.8 DPS +654 FAP (=46.7 DPS) for a total of 114.5 DPS. Close enough, eh? But that is only if a Moonkin swings the mace because he uses both AP and actual weapon DPS. Cats, however, do not have an innate paw DPS of 67.8, they only got 55 DPS. 55 DPS + 46.7 DPS is 101.7.

To sum it up, a Warrior gains 114.6 DPS and a Cat will gain 101.7 DPS, which means a Druid gains roughly 11% less DPS from the weapon compared to a Warrior. Now, it is not a coincidence NW increases your DPS by 10%, is it? With NS, the Druid gets 112 DPS from the weapon which is close enough to the base DPS of the Warrior mace.
That is what I meant with Druid weapons being 10% less effective compared to other melee weapons. Why is Blizzard requiring a talent so that items actually work at 100% effictivity? Granted, being forced to spec Naturalist in Beta is no big deal due to the HT synergy, however it still boggles my mind items are designed with such talents in mind. I always considered talents to be the icing on the cake, not the basis of the cake itself (if you get the horrible analogy :P).

It's especially bad if you compare the PvP sets: Druids gain the lowest Stamina from all classes (177), most classes gain 216 Stamina expect for Warriors, Priests and Warlocks who gain slightly more. The difference between the Druid Sta value on the other classes is roughly 20%. And, you guessed it, HotW increases your HP in bear by 20%. What is with that? I don't see Warlocks having a penalty built-in in their PvP set because they can increase their Stamina by 15% via a talent. Can someone explain me the reasoning of this? ._.

You can heal? And Dps? While I'm not a fan of the usual, shut up you're a priest/mage/rogue/warrior all at once, which is vastly exxagerated, the fact is you can still heal(not efficiently) when speced feral and doing max dps, or you can switch gear and dps pretty awfully but heal very decently. The fact you can do this in pretty much 1secs(switching form+gear with an addon) forces blizzard to give druids less bonuses. It's nothing new really.

#52 Tyvi

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 06:37 PM


Frankly I don't see any problem with feral yellow damage scaling, could you explain what the problem is?

My bad, it looks as if a Mangled Shred could actually outscale the Rogue's backstab in raids, so I am mistaken on that part (I assumed otherwise because it does in live and I got the white damage of Rogues confused in here because they do get more DPS per 1 AP with SnD and Dual Wield). :)

So yes indeed, a Druid might get the bigger yellow damage hits/crits. (And now the part addressing Boevis' post) But that is only assuming Druid Weapons will scale as much as the Rogues weapon, for example if a Rogue gets a Dagger with 100 DPS, 20 Str and 20 Agi, a Druid should also be able to get a Mace with 55 DPS and 630 Feral AP (that's +45 DPS for a total of 100 DPS), 20 Str and 20 Agi. However currently this is not the case unless you have Naturalist/Natural Weapons specced (which you will probably do if you are not full balance, but it's just the point that this system is stupid).

Case in point, check out the Gladiator maces:

Warrior version
Druid version

Note that all stats but Weapon DPS and +FAP are identical. The itemlevel is the same as well, so you'd expect them to give both classes the same DPS increase, right? Unfortunately, that is not true:

Warrior version gives you 114.6 DPS. Druid version gives you 67.8 DPS +654 FAP (=46.7 DPS) for a total of 114.5 DPS. Close enough, eh? But that is only if a Moonkin swings the mace because he uses both AP and actual weapon DPS. Cats, however, do not have an innate paw DPS of 67.8, they only got 55 DPS. 55 DPS + 46.7 DPS is 101.7.

To sum it up, a Warrior gains 114.6 DPS and a Cat will gain 101.7 DPS, which means a Druid gains roughly 11% less DPS from the weapon compared to a Warrior. Now, it is not a coincidence NW increases your DPS by 10%, is it? With NS, the Druid gets 112 DPS from the weapon which is close enough to the base DPS of the Warrior mace.
That is what I meant with Druid weapons being 10% less effective compared to other melee weapons. Why is Blizzard requiring a talent so that items actually work at 100% effictivity? Granted, being forced to spec Naturalist in Beta is no big deal due to the HT synergy, however it still boggles my mind items are designed with such talents in mind. I always considered talents to be the icing on the cake, not the basis of the cake itself (if you get the horrible analogy :P).

It's especially bad if you compare the PvP sets: Druids gain the lowest Stamina from all classes (177), most classes gain 216 Stamina expect for Warriors, Priests and Warlocks who gain slightly more. The difference between the Druid Sta value on the other classes is roughly 20%. And, you guessed it, HotW increases your HP in bear by 20%. What is with that? I don't see Warlocks having a penalty built-in in their PvP set because they can increase their Stamina by 15% via a talent. Can someone explain me the reasoning of this? ._.

You can heal? And Dps? While I'm not a fan of the usual, shut up you're a priest/mage/rogue/warrior all at once, which is vastly exxagerated, the fact is you can still heal(not efficiently) when speced feral and doing max dps, or you can switch gear and dps pretty awfully but heal very decently. The fact you can do this in pretty much 1secs(switching form+gear with an addon) forces blizzard to give druids less bonuses. It's nothing new really.

No, just no.

"Max dps", as you put it, is relative. Max Cat DPS does definitely not equal Rogue DPS which is totally fine because Druids have utility and heals to bring to the table. So how often do you want to punish Cats for being able to heal?

#53 LadyVex

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 07:10 PM

They should always be "moderated" because of this.

A class with 3 effective roles should be content being about 60-70% in every single role. 3 roles with decreased effectiveness. Checks and balances, it's how it works.

A pure healer is 100% the most effective in this, as is a prot tank, or a combat dagger rogue etc. Whatever. Their checks are that they cannot do anything else.

You chose a hybrid. Cat dps should never come close to a rogue/mage/warlock/hunter imo, while bear tanking should never come close to prot warriors etc. I won't use healing because that's kinda a weird argument and with the different heals, types, and abilities it's hard to label heal classes by effectiveness.

As per topic, a +feral attack power simply opens and simultaneously closes alot of doors. The End of Dreams is indicative of what happens with this stat, as so many druids will swear it's THEIR item merely because of that stat. That conversation on loot always made me laugh because I often wondered what they would have done in EQ when things like Bracers of Earthen Energy dropped: Melee haste, spell haste, and a bard song instrument modifier!

I'm not sure why this causes so much hubbub. Itemization is the best it's ever been for off-specs considering the TBC loot system, and quested items such as the qiraji weapons which allow for classes to get interesting items.

I certainly don't want a repeat of AQ and the multitude of leather loot we got and didn't want.

#54 Tyvi

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 07:27 PM

They should always be "moderated" because of this.

A class with 3 effective roles should be content being about 60-70% in every single role. 3 roles with decreased effectiveness. Checks and balances, it's how it works.

A pure healer is 100% the most effective in this, as is a prot tank, or a combat dagger rogue etc. Whatever. Their checks are that they cannot do anything else.

You chose a hybrid. Cat dps should never come close to a rogue/mage/warlock/hunter imo, while bear tanking should never come close to prot warriors etc.

OK. You do realize that from all the classes you listed, only 4 are no hybrids? Don't try to tell me that Priests or Warriors are specialist classes. They are as much as hybrid as a Paladin, Druid or Shaman. That is why I am not going to buy into this "a pure healer is 100%" effective. What is a pure healer? All classes that can heal got atleast a DPS tree, and/or a tanking tree. Why should a Priest do less DPS than a Fury Warrior? Why should a Priest heal better than a Druid? I could go on, but I think you get where I am going.

I won't use healing because that's kinda a weird argument and with the different heals, types, and abilities it's hard to label heal classes by effectiveness.

Well, you can't just single out one aspect because it doesn't fit the argument. Healing is as much as a part of Hybrids as their other trees. What makes healing so special that it can be on par with other healers, but being competitive in tanking and DPSing is considered a crime?

I already admitted Druids should not be better than Rogues at DPSing (because that's all Rogues can do) or Prot Warriors at tanking, but they sure should be damn close. Like the Warrior, Druids have to specialize in their chosen role, even more so in TBC. So what does a Bear specced Druid have what a Warrior doesn't have? Mana to cast 5 Healing Touches before going OOM? Both Warriors and Druids bring utility to the raid (BS, better Demo, +HP shout, Sunder etc vs MotW, CR, Innervate, LotP etc) and can only do one role well at any given time. A Bear can't shoot lasers off his butt and heal with his thoughts alone; if he wants to do either, he has to shift out, at which time he does not tank. Like I said, Bears should get pretty damn close to Warriors unless you can tell me that being able to heal does help on bosses that are unstunnable.

The only thing I agree 100% with is that Druids should never outDPS Rogues because as I said before, they just don't have the utility and only can do one thing.


As per topic, a +feral attack power simply opens and simultaneously closes alot of doors. The End of Dreams is indicative of what happens with this stat, as so many druids will swear it's THEIR item merely because of that stat. That conversation on loot always made me laugh because I often wondered what they would have done in EQ when things like Bracers of Earthen Energy dropped: Melee haste, spell haste, and a bard song instrument modifier!

That was because there are a whopping 3 +FAP weapons in live now. I can guarantee you that won't happen anymore in TBC (to this extent) because +FAP weapons are itemized and plenty.

I'm not sure why this causes so much hubbub. Itemization is the best it's ever been for off-specs considering the TBC loot system, and quested items such as the qiraji weapons which allow for classes to get interesting items.

I certainly don't want a repeat of AQ and the multitude of leather loot we got and didn't want.

That's what tokens are there for. ;)

#55 LadyVex

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 08:01 PM

Priests are only a hybrid of two types, warriors the same, rogues/hunters/warlocks/mages have no hybridization.

Priests can be dps or healers. For this, I'd say they are 100% effective at healing, 60% at dps. Warriors can tank or dps, 100% and well...100%, because warriors are just in an unusual spot right now.

Druids on the other hand are in a very unique position that they get three areas of specialization and for the most part, do not get barred from other areas.

Healing is harder to qualify because of how you "rate" healing. As long as your tank/caster/dps survives, you've done your job, whereas you can test dps by merely watching a DM. It's not quite so easy for healing.

Anyways, semi off-topic, but I was confused as to what this thread was about. Feral attack power beign bad, or good?

As it is, druids shouldn't expect to be better than 70% in any one area, even when appropriately spec'd for it. You can get better in those areas the day a warrior can throw on cloth healing gear and swiftmend himself to full hps.

I like the idea of intensely specific itemized sets, and that appears to be what we are getting. But feral attack power on regular items, well...I didn't like that idea in EQ and I don't like it now.

#56 Tyvi

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 08:20 PM

Priests are only a hybrid of two types, warriors the same, rogues/hunters/warlocks/mages have no hybridization.

Priests can be dps or healers. For this, I'd say they are 100% effective at healing, 60% at dps. Warriors can tank or dps, 100% and well...100%, because warriors are just in an unusual spot right now.

I didn't ask how you'd rate each individual role in live. I merely provoked thinking about why a Priest heals better than he DPSes, or why a Warrior can do his both roles so well. And why a Priest can't DPS at 100% if specced so, and heal at 100% if specced so etc.
Arguing that Druids can't reach 100% efficiency for what they spec for because it's how it is now is no real reason.

Druids on the other hand are in a very unique position that they get three areas of specialization and for the most part, do not get barred from other areas.

No. They pick one role for a fight, and excel at that. The roles are as mutually exclusive as a Prot Warrior tanking and DPSing in one fight and a Priest DPSing and Healing in one fight. You can't change gear in combat, so you either equip your good feral gear and have shitty mana or equip your resto gear and have shitty DPS. Why don't people get that a Druid can only do one role well at one time, just like everyone else (that means if I want to MT something, I will suck at healing when my tanked add dies - I can merely do some Feral DPS. But so can a Prot Warrior after his add died.)?


Healing is harder to qualify because of how you "rate" healing. As long as your tank/caster/dps survives, you've done your job, whereas you can test dps by merely watching a DM. It's not quite so easy for healing.

Druids are being taken to raids because they heal so well. I have never ever read or heard someone saying "Hey, let's sub all the Druids out for fight X, we need real healers", but stuff "Hey, Druid, leave Bear/Cat, and heal" is more common. Seriously, is that fair?

As it is, druids shouldn't expect to be better than 70% in any one area, even when appropriately spec'd for it. You can get better in those areas the day a warrior can throw on cloth healing gear and swiftmend himself to full hps.

Because Swiftmend is accessible to Feral Druids, right? Please let's not stoop down to the level of "Druids can main tank, and main heal at the same time while MF spamming mobs into oblivion". Druids are special in that they are role shifters. Being in forms locks out your other "hybrid traits". If you are in Bear, you can't heal nor do ranged DPS. If you are in Cat you can't tank nor heal nor do ranged DPS. The only form that has any sense of hybridity is caster form because you can access both ranged DPS and heals at once.

I like the idea of intensely specific itemized sets, and that appears to be what we are getting. But feral attack power on regular items, well...I didn't like that idea in EQ and I don't like it now.

Well, got a better idea then? It is not like every piece of equipment has FAP, it's just that it will be more in TBC so I don't get why it bothers you.

#57 LadyVex

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 08:46 PM

You're going really really far into reading what isn't there in my post.

Druids are a hybrid. They have more options and more versatility available to them than just about any other class. The *true* hybrids of WoW are considered paladins/shamans/druids. Priests and warriors to a fairly lesser extent simply because they have another tree that runs concurrent to their relatively clear role in raid environments.

Hybrids will always be held to the standard that if you want to have options available to you, be wary of the fact that you won't be as effective as that spec's *pure* counterpart.

As for what to do, I would highly support a token system for weapons even. The problem I see with FAP is that it will just be hap-hazardly slapped onto weapons at random, which creates alot of controversy. Even in the best guilds items like ones I've mentioned create a bit of confusion when they drop, considering they have stats that affect a wide variety of classes, yet one stat that affects but one.

It's just not a stat I like, because it's very very specific, on non specific items. That's just my opinion. I'm very much for specialized sets and weapons, but pre-determined class specific items.

I guess what I don't want to see is caster items losing some ilvl points to be allocated to FAP, when it's probably much more worthwhile to just throw a weapon like the qiraji mace or the green dragon mace into your hands.

Basically, I don't see the point of it. You can change weapons in combat, so make some really specific weapons that say druid only, otherwise I just feel it's a waste.

Not sure if that makes sense, but items that you have to think about to loot just makes me cringe, because eventually, a bad or unsavory decision is usually made.

#58 Tyvi

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 09:01 PM

You're going really really far into reading what isn't there in my post.

Druids are a hybrid. They have more options and more versatility available to them than just about any other class. The *true* hybrids of WoW are considered paladins/shamans/druids. Priests and warriors to a fairly lesser extent simply because they have another tree that runs concurrent to their relatively clear role in raid environments.

Hybrids will always be held to the standard that if you want to have options available to you, be wary of the fact that you won't be as effective as that spec's *pure* counterpart.

Hybrids are defined as classes that can fill more than one role. Noone says you have to be able to fill atleast 3 roles before being called a hybrid.
You also don't consider that a hybrid cannot physically fulfill all 3+ roles at once which is my main argument. But let's drop this, this is not going anywhere. :(

As for what to do, I would highly support a token system for weapons even. The problem I see with FAP is that it will just be hap-hazardly slapped onto weapons at random, which creates alot of controversy. Even in the best guilds items like ones I've mentioned create a bit of confusion when they drop, considering they have stats that affect a wide variety of classes, yet one stat that affects but one.

It's just not a stat I like, because it's very very specific, on non specific items. That's just my opinion. I'm very much for specialized sets and weapons, but pre-determined class specific items.

I guess what I don't want to see is caster items losing some ilvl points to be allocated to FAP, when it's probably much more worthwhile to just throw a weapon like the qiraji mace or the green dragon mace into your hands.

Basically, I don't see the point of it. You can change weapons in combat, so make some really specific weapons that say druid only, otherwise I just feel it's a waste.

Not sure if that makes sense, but items that you have to think about to loot just makes me cringe, because eventually, a bad or unsavory decision is usually made.

FAP doesn't cost item budget; it takes it's item budget via decreasing Weapon DPS which is casters couldn't care less about (see EoD). So a 1h mace that should have had 100 DPS going by it's Ilvl now has 70 DPS and 30 DPS worth of +FAP added on it. If the Weapon has added magical stats on it, it still stays attractive to casters because it doesn't matter to a Priest if the DPS of the Weapon is 100 or 10.

#59 LadyVex

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 09:12 PM

While it is a very old subject:

You also don't consider that a hybrid cannot physically fulfill all 3+ roles at once which is my main argument. But let's drop this, this is not going anywhere.

What you are missing is that when combat drops, you can swap gear and do some dps, or heal, or tank. You lose a bit of oomph if not spec'd appropriately, but you can do it.

Rogues and the like are unable to do this and THAT is the defining characteristic. There is no reason for a pure class to remain pure, or exist when they know they can do the same as another class AND have the option of other roles.

I hope I'm never around to see the day a druid is doing rogue dps, then swapping out of cat form to rejuve then swapping back.

It's all opinion, but I believe an opinion someone interested in balance shares. And balance as in class balance, not the druid tree! Teehee.


The dps being allocated to FAP takes care of that issue, I admit I missed that. But it doesn't take care of the second issue, which is it creates a good bit of "What's best for who" when you encounter it.

As an example, The End of Dreams is such a silly item to me. Considering you can swap weapons in combat why would you simply not go for a weapon with FAP, str/sta? They exist; that item seems unnecessary itemized like it is, and I'm not interesting in seeing more of them. I think someone said it is a pretty good paladin weapon, and afaik, that class does want weapon dps.

Blargh, I hate specific stats on non-specific weapons. As a hunter and a priest, I'd be just as disappointed to see an uber melee dagger with +mana regen and +heal. Didn't one of those exist before being fixed? Fang of the Mystics, or perhaps something in Naxx?

Same thing to me, and I feel it shouldn't be breached.

#60 Myonax

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 09:18 PM

This thread confuses me.

Where does the 70% effectiveness number come from? Are you sure that druids shouldn't be 83.45% as effective? Why not 33.33 repeating of course? If Druids are only 70% effective in groups no matter which role they choose why would you bring one when there are 8 classes supposedly 30% better? And lastly what does Feral attack power have to do with druids being 70% effective as any other class filling the role they are filling?




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