Jump to content


ICC - The Lich King (normal)


  • Please log in to reply
120 replies to this topic

#41 ciopo

ciopo

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 30 posts

Posted 15 February 2010 - 02:35 PM

We adopted a taunt+kite strategy to deal with the soul reaper.
Given the fact it have more or less a stable internal cooldown of 30 seconds,we tanks positionated ourself far apart from each other, when MT get soul reaped OT taunt from far away, only to have MT taunt back as soon as LK reach OT, effectively negating all melee damage for the duration of soul reaper.
The fact he apparently stop a moment to "cast" it, or other stuff for the matter, also help on that.
There is plenty of time before the next soul reaper that the taunt DR fall off.
bind thou to thy lords from the end of the earth that rise to the field of the heavens

#42 Jorth

Jorth

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 18 posts

Posted 15 February 2010 - 04:45 PM

We did that, however the 100% haste buff 5 seconds after Soul Reaper was a killer for us, especially when things got a bit more stressful for the healers. The tank would just die.
After we've found out that we only had untalented demo shout, things worked better. But still no kill so far for us.


In addition to this and to the poster mentioning taunting as soon as the Soul Reaper debuff is applied. On our kill (25N) we used 3 tanks, Warrior/Feral/Pally. We expanded on the taunting by doing a full tank switch each Soul Reaper, we found this had a couple of additional benefits in the rotation of tanking cooldowns.

With a warrior handling the Raging Spirits alive at the phase transition, myself and the Paladin would take turns on the LK. I would stack the new Enrage (4pt bonus) and Barkskin and take a sub 40,000 damage hit, using both just before the ability hit meant I would mitigate both portions. The paladin using his own cooldowns. I had survival instincts for the 2nd one, reseting every minute. Using this method we found Soul Reaper to become a much simpler part of the fight than defile (which was our own personal bugbear). The healers were able to top the other tank up between the damage spikes and continue healing the new tank.

Hopefully this information is helpful if you are currently using two tanks.

#43 Ashen

Ashen

    Great Tiger

  •  Patrons
  • 841 posts

Posted 15 February 2010 - 06:33 PM

The problem is not so much in improved demo or not, its that i am assuming your dealing with the mechanic wrong.

Lich king casts Soulreaper
Soulreaper applies a shadow dmg debuff increasing melee damage taken by lich king.
Soulreaper expires and deals alot of shadow damage.

The way to prevent this is to have your OT taunt Lich king right after he applies the Soul reaper debuff and when the debuff expired and MT is healed up he just taunts it back. We used this tactic on both 10 and 25 man and it works like a charm.

A taunt glyph is highly recommended for this.



You're making things way harder for your healers and over-complicating the fight by doing this. Healers will be 100% more effective when they've had time to really ramp up and adjust to the target they're healing, and you don't let them do that by spreading out massive damage on two targets at a really dangerous time.

Your best bet is to use CD's. Protection Paladins are preferred by a lot of guilds due to Ardent Defender (no ICD on the damage reduction and yes, you will almost always proc it with soul reaper). We used a Feral Druid and Protection Warrior for our kill. You basically need to plan out a solid CD rotation and incorporate a tank switch when one tank has gone through their CD's and the reliable external CD's (Pain Suppression; Sacrifice isn't really reliable enough on its own, and generally needs to be paired with something else, like a GS). Then that other tank goes through their CD's and by then, the first tank should have something back up. This obviously gets increasingly complicated depending on what types of tanks you're using, but the fight is doable with any combination, just easier with some than others.

The key here is realizing that your tanks CAN and probably WILL die until they get some more gear. Look through any high end parse for a kill and you'll see that in almost all of them, there were tank deaths. At least one. Just be ready to Soulstone and Rebirth them when this happens and make sure both your tanks are #1 and #2 on the threat list.


Edit: IF you're out of CD's or are running into some kind of issue, your tanks can ping pong him if need be as a last resort. I don't recommend 3 tanks for most guilds, unless your DPS are really good. Most people will have DPS issues and probably will face some kind of death or two in the fight. If you're still contending with Val'kyr phases, you need to have the expectation that you might lose at least one of your DPS in a mishap at some point.

This obviously is less of a consideration the better your DPS and players are in general, and having three tanks does give you a lot more room to work with in terms of this.

#44 snifit7

snifit7

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Posted 15 February 2010 - 07:51 PM

Protection Paladins are preferred by a lot of guilds due to Ardent Defender (no ICD on the damage reduction and yes, you will almost always proc it with soul reaper).


You seem to be implying that Ardent Defender affects all the damage of a hit that takes the paladin below 35% health. The Tankspot video for Lich King also suggested that, which is strange. The damage reduction part of the talent only affects damage taken while the paladin is below 35% health (that is, if the paladin takes a 90k hit while at her max health of 100k, only 25k of the hit is reduced by 20%).

I don't disagree that paladins are good tanks for LK, but the damage reduction from Ardent Defender shouldn't be given more weight than it normally is.

#45 Kuku

Kuku

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 73 posts

Posted 15 February 2010 - 08:13 PM

Edit: IF you're out of CD's or are running into some kind of issue, your tanks can ping pong him if need be as a last resort.


Since you mentioned this as sort of an afterthought, I figured I'd say something about it. You can ping-pong The Lich King, resulting in the OT not taking any damage at all, and completely nullifying the damage boost on The Lich King. I don't see why you would mention this as a last resort as it is incredibly repeatable and requires no cooldowns whatsoever. It's simply the safest thing you can do.

#46 Bonemage

Bonemage

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 56 posts

Posted 15 February 2010 - 08:43 PM

You're making things way harder for your healers and over-complicating the fight by doing this. Healers will be 100% more effective when they've had time to really ramp up and adjust to the target they're healing, and you don't let them do that by spreading out massive damage on two targets at a really dangerous time.


If the healers know its coming there isn't a ramp up problem, especially given that it is on a fixed timer and that outside of soulreaper the Lich King is pretty easy to tank heal. We have found it far more effective, and too pretty much eliminate tank gibs, to use big mitigation cool downs such a PS and SW right after transition when the OT still has a raging spirit, then start swapping every soul reaper. The tank that takes over uses or gets a smaller cooldown (barkskin, HoSac, Trinkets, etc) to get through the buffed Lich King damage, while the other tank just needs to be topped off in 5 seconds.

#47 moowalk

moowalk

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 283 posts

Posted 15 February 2010 - 08:56 PM

We were having tank deaths on soul reaper until our healers fully understood the mechanics. We use the tank switch taunt strat. The important thing to realise is that the tank which is in danger of dying is the tank which just taunted, not the one with the soul reaper debuff.

Soul reaper does a large spike of damage, but if the tank survives it, they're not taking any more damage. We made sure the tank with the soul reaper debuff was topped off before the hit, and then all tank healers switch to the new tank. The previous tank often sits at low health for a few seconds, but they don't die.

We haven't killed it, but tank deaths are no longer a problem.

Edit: above poster beat me to it. One extra thing - if one of your tanks is a bear they always have bark skin up when they're taunting the boss.

How do people deal with the second valkyr spawn coinciding with a defile? We had people clump up for the valkyr spawn, spread out awaiting the defile and then after defile was dealt with blow some small cooldowns on the valks to make up for lost melee dps time. This worked alright, but if he decided to defile before summoning valks we wiped.

#48 Maleficus

Maleficus

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 13 posts

Posted 15 February 2010 - 10:52 PM

How do people deal with the second valkyr spawn coinciding with a defile? We had people clump up for the valkyr spawn, spread out awaiting the defile and then out defile was dealt with blow some small cooldowns on the valks to make up for lost melee dps time. This worked alright, but if he decided to defile before summoning valks we wiped.


I think over a dozen phase 2s we never got Defile right before Valkyrs when the timers get close together, Valkyrs always came right before and we used the same strategy as yourselves. We did get Defile-->Valkyr once over the course of 20+ 10 man attempts and it did indeed cause a wipe, but I think if the Defile target is fast enough to move closer to the stairs and away from the raidclump, you could still salvage it.

#49 Daenerys

Daenerys

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 406 posts

Posted 15 February 2010 - 11:56 PM

I think over a dozen phase 2s we never got Defile right before Valkyrs when the timers get close together, Valkyrs always came right before and we used the same strategy as yourselves. We did get Defile-->Valkyr once over the course of 20+ 10 man attempts and it did indeed cause a wipe, but I think if the Defile target is fast enough to move closer to the stairs and away from the raidclump, you could still salvage it.


We had this a bit more often, maybe 30% of the time the second Defile would come right before the second set of Valks, and it was always a surprise which way he'd do it. We ended up having someone watch the spell timers like a hawk and just adapt on the fly. It did necessitate a slightly less tight clump for the Valks when it was going to be close, but there was still time as long as we were close enough to the center that a defile in the path of the Valks wouldn't completely negate all melee DPS (melee would be able to get some hits in before they flew over the Defile and again after).

#50 Nowitzki

Nowitzki

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 16 February 2010 - 08:18 AM

Looked like our guild was going to knock out our first 25 man kill and our tanks got 1 shot. It wasnt the enrage timer, but Lich King suddenly did absurd damage. Looking at the logs it appears he got some debuff called "Harvested Soul". I am looking everything I can to find some info about it, but none of the tooltips I can find say anything about giving him a damage increase.

Is that what made him do so much damage? Also, what would be the source of that buff? Someone dieing to soul harvest before making it into frost mourne or is it from messing up in the frost mourne area?

#51 PsiVen

PsiVen

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 416 posts

Posted 16 February 2010 - 08:29 AM

Looked like our guild was going to knock out our first 25 man kill and our tanks got 1 shot. It wasnt the enrage timer, but Lich King suddenly did absurd damage. Looking at the logs it appears he got some debuff called "Harvested Soul". I am looking everything I can to find some info about it, but none of the tooltips I can find say anything about giving him a damage increase.

Is that what made him do so much damage? Also, what would be the source of that buff? Someone dieing to soul harvest before making it into frost mourne or is it from messing up in the frost mourne area?


Yes, if he kills someone with Harvest Soul or they fail in the Frostmourne room he will gain a 200% damage enrage that will one-shot your tanks. It doesn't last that long, so it should be possible to survive with some cooldowns, though odds are you won't have to time to prepare for it.


After last night's attempts I wonder if the gib factor of Soul Reaper's initial tick + melee in the same instant is not really a bug at all, or even a mechanical flaw in the sense that parry gib was in the past. It happened so incredibly often (nearly every Reaper) that we had to adjust our strategy so that it wouldn't be a problem. The main issue with that theory is that there is plenty of warning for the Soul Reaper debuff, but you must rely on a timer if you want to cooldown preemptively. If this wasn't the intent, I'd be surprised if we didn't see a nerf to the initial application damage of Soul Reaper soon.

#52 sp00n

sp00n

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 1836 posts

Posted 16 February 2010 - 09:10 AM

From our tries I assume this is when the designated Harvest Soul target dies before being sucked into Frostmourne.
This may be the related buff, though I'm not sure about the stacks: Harvest Soul.
It may also happen if the player dies within Frostmourne, but we haven't had this happen in our tries as far as I can remember.


//Edit
Should've checked if there was a new page...

Stopped Playing


#53 Lorune

Lorune

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 16 February 2010 - 09:12 AM

You're making things way harder for your healers and over-complicating the fight by doing this. Healers will be 100% more effective when they've had time to really ramp up and adjust to the target they're healing, and you don't let them do that by spreading out massive damage on two targets at a really dangerous time.


We killed him on 25 man, and in none of the attempts our tanks died. We have a protection paladin in phase 2 on the boss. Myself warrior tank im dealing with the remaining raging spirits, and we only cooldown the first soul reaper.

With proper healers this is not a issue at all. Paladin healers are especially strong in this regard, beacon heal both tanks and if the still die you might want to reconsider your paladins. Only time we had a tank die was when someone died inside the frostmoure room. But that happened at 14% and I managed to get LK fine till 10%.

And to the over complicating things, healers know exactly when to ramp up already since the soul reaper is perfectly timeable.

#54 Beo

Beo

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 7 posts

Posted 16 February 2010 - 09:40 AM

We run into a problem (bug?) with Soul Reaper.

Our guild uses 2 warrior tanks for Arthas and when the boss debuffs the MT with Soul Reaper, the second tank spots Arthas until Soul Reaper goes off after 5 seconds, then the main tank spots back. This strategiy normally works like a charm.

But we run into a strange situation several times yesterday, namely that the main tank dies suddenly due to a huge damage spike caused by a physical hit of about 30k and Soul Reaper going off causing another 40k damage. Now, the strange thing is, that no Soul Reaper debuff was on the main tank when this happened. I couldnt see the debuff on my debuff-list, nor did any add on see it (we use DBM, Bigwigs, Grid and Power Auras).

It seems that its a bug and that Soul Reaper goes off and deals the full dmg the moment he casts the debuff on me, instead after a 5 seconds time frame. This sometimes happened during the "valkyr-phase" and sometimes in the last phase, around 30% life.

Does anybody know what could cause this strange behaviour (so we could try to avoid it) or have found a work-around to cope with this bug?

#55 MatsT

MatsT

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 485 posts

Posted 16 February 2010 - 09:51 AM

Soul Reaper does damage twice, once when he casts it and once after 5 seconds. We haven't had the first damage coincide with melee hits though, might be just luck or there is some measure to prevent it. If the taunting for some reason screws up, we've had the delayed damage coincide with a melee hit sometimes and that usually causes a tank death.

#56 Maleficus

Maleficus

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 13 posts

Posted 16 February 2010 - 09:52 AM

Um, Soul Reaper actually does hit twice. An initial hit of resistable shadow damage, then the followup hit 5 seconds later, which is unresistable and equal to the amount of damage taken on the initial hit before resists. Due to being resistable, the initial hit plus a melee swing usually isn't enough to kill a tank, atleast with a Demo Shout equivalent on the boss.

#57 sp00n

sp00n

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 1836 posts

Posted 16 February 2010 - 09:52 AM

There is an initial damage tick on the application of Soul Reaper, additional to the tick after 5 seconds.
We've had it also coincide with melee hits, and it is enough to kill a tank (at least in 25) if he's not topped off and/or isn't using cooldowns.


// Edit
Beaten again...

Stopped Playing


#58 Terlig

Terlig

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 48 posts

Posted 16 February 2010 - 11:55 AM

What are you doing with Vile Spirits on 10man in P3?
I read that it's best to use an off tank (with some shadow res) to blow them up, we tried to dps them, but single ranged dps can't do the job.
Did someone use such strat (with blowing them up)? How it works in details? Personally i don't believe that optimal method is to dps them, they have 60k hp, it is pretty much ...

#59 Jorth

Jorth

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 18 posts

Posted 16 February 2010 - 01:45 PM

What are you doing with Vile Spirits on 10man in P3?
I read that it's best to use an off tank (with some shadow res) to blow them up, we tried to dps them, but single ranged dps can't do the job.
Did someone use such strat (with blowing them up)? How it works in details? Personally i don't believe that optimal method is to dps them, they have 60k hp, it is pretty much ...


We had 2 ranged dps in our first kill this week. One shadow priest, one fire specced mage. We found that they could AoE some down fast, and single target a couple, but we always called for the melee to move out for a few seconds as they rush to the ground, causing the explosions to rarely if ever catch me whilst tanking. If you are running very melee heavy, consider a full spread to the markers around the grey floor design as then begin to descend. Otherwise its a fact of group composition.

I believe they hover for around 10 seconds or so after they spawn, before choosing a target and chasing them.

#60 Ashen

Ashen

    Great Tiger

  •  Patrons
  • 841 posts

Posted 16 February 2010 - 02:41 PM

We killed him on 25 man, and in none of the attempts our tanks died. We have a protection paladin in phase 2 on the boss. Myself warrior tank im dealing with the remaining raging spirits, and we only cooldown the first soul reaper.

With proper healers this is not a issue at all. Paladin healers are especially strong in this regard, beacon heal both tanks and if the still die you might want to reconsider your paladins. Only time we had a tank die was when someone died inside the frostmoure room. But that happened at 14% and I managed to get LK fine till 10%.

And to the over complicating things, healers know exactly when to ramp up already since the soul reaper is perfectly timeable.



So you used a Protection Paladin. They are the easiest tanks to heal on the fight due to Ardent Defender, and using one pretty much eliminates the need for an intricate CD rotation or a taunt fest. Paladin healers aren't the problem on this, as I'm sure any guild working on this has tank healers that are capable enough.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users