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Boss Scaling and new Armor Formula


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#1 XP-Dolphin

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 08:49 PM

I haven't seen anyone discussing it, but I have been a bit worried about how the new armor formula that is showing up in the upcoming patch is going to affect raiding until BC comes out. Current armor formula is mitigation = armor/(armor+85*level+400). In the patch files, that formula is the same, except they are playing with the level value some. It seems they are now saying that if level>59 then level = level + 4.5*(level-59). So for a level 63 boss, level will be changing to 81 in the formula. That means a tank that is currently sitting at 11k AC in raid buffs is going to go from 65.65% mitigation to 60.16% mitigation. That is a 16% increase in damage taken by your tank, which with how hard some of the current bosses are hitting is quite significant.

Now, yes, armor values are going up a bit. From what I can tell, the amount they are going up will account for the change from level 60 to 64.5 in the formula for level 60 mobs. Unless they are also changing the mechanics so that armor scaling is based on level of the person getting hit rather than the level of the attacker, this is a rather big change to raiding right after the patch (larger than the downranking or decursive nerfs, imo). I have not had time to totally test this on PTR yet, as it hasn't been stable enough to really get a group of my guild online to go play with some bosses to see how it is working out. I plan to try to organize such a thing sometime over the next week or two, but if someone else has input already on this, I would love to hear it.

Also, I do not currently have a beta account on BC. But I was wondering if anyone had done some hard testing on boss level scaling as players gain levels. I have heard that anything marked as a "boss mob" with hidden level value is treated as the 3 more than the highest level person in the zone. This means that Naxx will basically become impossible as we level up, as it is designed around us having the best possible gear for our level, which will not be attainable again until quite some time after hitting level 70. Part of the fun of expansions that add levels and such is the mudflation making older content more widely accessible for those that just want to try it out. But if bosses are going to scale like this, they will become impossible combined with the new armor scaling, since they are currently tuned for the old armor scaling.

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#2 Nite_Moogle

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 08:52 PM

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There was some discussion of this in another thread. Some mobs have been changed so that they have a true level now instead of a boss level, but some brief testing in ZG showed there are still level 60 content bosses who will effectively be level 73 against level 70 players. The +3 mechanic has worked until now, the level cap being raised has exposed this to be a flaw in the way boss encounters were designed.

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#3 Kalman

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 08:56 PM

I'll point out again the existance of 2 level ?? bosses pre raiding. So unless they are making it so that only ?? level bosses in certain instances are effected then Uldaman may be interesting for the next group that gets rushed thru it.

Believe both of those bosses were changed to have a fixed level, rather than ??.
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#4 XP-Dolphin

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 09:01 PM

I'll point out again the existance of 2 level ?? bosses pre raiding. So unless they are making it so that only ?? level bosses in certain instances are effected then Uldaman may be interesting for the next group that gets rushed thru it.

Believe both of those bosses were changed to have a fixed level, rather than ??.

I believe so too. I shall go check in a bit. This came up in question when I heard about the 14k HSs on mid 60s tanks in BC, then someone mentioning that they use to have this issue in Uldaman until those bosses got changed to fixed level.

#5 XP-Dolphin

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 10:32 PM

Just checked. The Uldaman bosses are fixed level now.

#6 Meddler

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 11:38 PM

Said formula does seem to match up with some reported results I've seen (11125 giving 63.66% mitigation at level 61 for example which the approach above to level reproduces) which is a pleasant change to others that have circulated.

Assuming it holds constant throughout the levels does mean that the 75% cap against a level 73 raid boss would be 35880 AC if a bit of quick maths is reliable - AC/AC+86*(73+4.5*14)+400, basically AC/AC+11906, which off current itemisation seen, even if we haven't yet seen any real endgame gear, gives quite a lot of room before anyone's likely to be getting near the AC cap.

If anyone could supply some level 70 mitigation values and the associated AC rating would be appreciated, would be curious to get direct confirmation.

#7 XP-Dolphin

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Posted 23 November 2006 - 01:07 AM

Yes, 35880 would be the new level 73 boss cap. Which is nice considering the cap was going to be under 20000. My big concern is that right away after this patch that level 63 bosses in the game are going to be hitting harder than they are now. So since they are not retuning, these bosses may be pushing the edge of difficulty some post patch.

Edit: Oh and yes this armor formula will match up to anything posted by someone using the UI in beta and/or the latest patch. I got the formula from the UI files directly. So in-game testing of such values would be more valuable at this point.

#8 Meddler

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Posted 23 November 2006 - 01:22 AM

Edit: Oh and yes this armor formula will match up to anything posted by someone using the UI in beta and/or the latest patch. I got the formula from the UI files directly. So in-game testing of such values would be more valuable at this point.

Ah nice, hadn't realised that was the source of this one. Will see if I can convince someone to do a few tests from some constant physical damage source to verify this in beta then if possible/have a look at the PTR if time permits and it's actually stable enough for testing.

#9 XP-Dolphin

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 08:18 AM

Ok, I just did some testing on the PTR using level 61 and 62 mobs. Essentially, I verified that the new armor formula is going in as posted in the OP. This means we are going to see a 10-15% physical dps increase from level 63 raid bosses. My method of testing is I took about 200-300 hits from each of level 61 and 62 mobs of the same type of mob at 2 wildly different armor values. I then used the new and old armor formulas to use these hits to figure out what the mob's min, max, and average hit would be with no armor. Using the new formula, they all pretty much match. Using the old formula, they vary by quite a bit, basically verifying the new formula is going in. This could cause troubles on some of the harder hitting bosses in the game by pushing the armor curve up post 60 by so much. The increase in armor basically only offsets the increase in damage output from level 60 mobs on the new formula. It does not handle level 61+ mobs. Here are the summary of the results:

Level Armor Min Max Average Old Min Old Max Old Average New Min New Max New Average Hits
61 11236 137 182 159.9109948 458.4655327 609.0564011 535.136346 421.5716535 560.0440945 492.0725729 191
62 11236 146 195 170.649789 483.6911621 646.0258671 565.3547586 429.5825286 573.7574869 502.1107389 237
61 5631 202 267 235.7546584 450.7374913 595.776783 526.0567489 423.4754156 559.7422572 494.2391185 322
62 5631 212 282 246.910299 469.4908877 624.5114638 546.8025258 430.1156338 572.1349468 500.9433007 301

#10 Infenwe

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 08:40 AM

More and more this patch reads to me as "stop doing Naxxramas" to those guilds that are close to finishing it.

Patchwerk with these changes seems pretty nasty to me. Of course he shouldn't instagib any tanks with this change, but man healers are going to quaff potions like never before on him. Loatheb seems pretty sick too. The damage he (it?!) does seems very finely tuned to how much a well-geared healer's max rank heal lands for, but with 10-15% more incoming damage, you might have to bring more healing, thus significantly hurting your dps.

I'm not exactly super optimistic, but we'll have to see I guess. It's a dying shame that Blizzard seems to be intent on driving their best designed (from a gameplay POV. Pots/elixirs/flasks can go to Hell) content into the ground even before they make it irrelevant.

#11 XP-Dolphin

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 09:13 AM

I ran some quick numbers, taking into account the change in how much armor is on our gear. It seems for tanking types, it will be right around a 10% dps increase on bosses (like MT going from 10k->11k unbuffed armor, or druid going from 15k->17k).

I agree it hurts Naxx a lot. Which really sucks. And the other point of my post, with boss scaling, Naxx will become completely undoable once your tanks reach level 63+ or so as they will just get destroyed. They need to fix all current bosses to level 63 asap or they are going to totally destroy the ability of anyone to go back and just look at this content once 70.

#12 Brissa

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 10:28 AM

I ran some quick numbers, taking into account the change in how much armor is on our gear. It seems for tanking types, it will be right around a 10% dps increase on bosses (like MT going from 10k->11k unbuffed armor, or druid going from 15k->17k).

I agree it hurts Naxx a lot. Which really sucks. And the other point of my post, with boss scaling, Naxx will become completely undoable once your tanks reach level 63+ or so as they will just get destroyed. They need to fix all current bosses to level 63 asap or they are going to totally destroy the ability of anyone to go back and just look at this content once 70.

A problem with naxx is that while armor values on actual armor does increase to "compensate" the armor values of consumables and skills does not.
Meaning we get a less damage reduction increase from GSP, Sup defense and devotion aura which in turn is going to result in even more damage taken on these encounters.

#13 EmiliaEQ

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 12:16 PM

On the other hand Healing should go up by a LOT with stacking Regens and the modifications to the way Regens work.

So i think it should balance out, however the danger from dmg spikes will a lot worse.

I mean if you can stack 5 regen, Maexna will be trivial.
However on some other bosses, Crushing+Hit = instant dead tank

#14 DeeNogger

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 12:25 PM

I mean if you can stack 5 regen, Maexna will be trivial.
However on some other bosses, Crushing+Hit = instant dead tank

and this is why i think healing has been ruined by wow 2.0 what about constantly refreshing a hot and being helpless to prevent spike damage (the only challange sense hots do all the work for you in mana conservation) sounds fun? gg blizz

#15 Solanthious

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 12:47 PM

Why is everyone worried about this mechanic right now? There's a really simple reason it's not fixed on beta, so that we can't just go farm the hell out of Naxx. It's been posted several times by Tigole that the old world dungeons will not be changed come TBC. They will end up waiting till the last minute before TBC goes live to put an appropriate level of 63-65 on the Naxx bosses, and probably the rest of the old world for that matter.
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#16 Vodrin

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 01:01 PM

don't forget that warlocks can lower the physical damage from the boss by 5%.

but yeah hopefully it doesn't go into live them doing +15% dps.

#17 Chiquihuite

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 01:05 PM

Solanthious brings up a good point. I remember a higher up at Blizzard(Chris Metzen maybe?) stating that Ragnaros was expected to be a 15-man boss for level 70 players. Granted, a significant portion of his damage is magical, but I think that was supposed to be an example of how current raid bosses will stack up against level 70 players.

As for the mitigation formula itself, that is indeed bad news. Is it possible that they'll have special rules for boss mobs (similar to how Patchwerk can't get crushing blows despite being level 63)?
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#18 Boevis

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 01:13 PM

HoT spam is the absolute least interative method of healing, 1 spell every 15 seconds for priests, 1 every 12 and 1 every 21 for druids, lovely. I will not be specced for HoTs, I plan on clinging to the Moonglow/Empowered HT as long as I possibly can.

However, I'm not greatly worried about the change so long as Blizzard applies it correctly. Remember, we are getting significantly more health, and our high rank spells are going to be about 25% better. I would think, and hope, that the new DR scaling is in response to the higher HP so that instead of increasing the base DPS of a boss by 25% in order to do 25% more to the tank, they'll keep the boss's DPS the same and just have this change in the scaling of armor. Not really sure what the difference ends up being in the end, but with more HP, we need to expect bosses to do more damage one way or another. (maybe it's so Demo Shout is more useful?)

#19 Brissa

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 03:12 PM

On the other hand Healing should go up by a LOT with stacking Regens and the modifications to the way Regens work.

So i think it should balance out, however the danger from dmg spikes will a lot worse.

I mean if you can stack 5 regen, Maexna will be trivial.
However on some other bosses, Crushing+Hit = instant dead tank

I doubt stacking HoTs is going to help alot on patchwerk.

#20 Caliane

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 03:38 PM

On the other hand Healing should go up by a LOT with stacking Regens and the modifications to the way Regens work.

So i think it should balance out, however the danger from dmg spikes will a lot worse.

I mean if you can stack 5 regen, Maexna will be trivial.
However on some other bosses, Crushing+Hit = instant dead tank

I doubt stacking HoTs is going to help alot on patchwerk.

no, but healing IS going up alot.

% healing talents do not scale now with gear, they will scale in 2.0.
Empowered talents past 31 points in a tree are available just like dps talents are.

Taking a druid.
A raiding 60 resto can get:
15% to rejuv, 10% gift of nature to allhealing
20% to healing to +healing
20% to all heal over time +healing.
As well as the 15% to spirit.

Well ignore treeform, as hot healing isnt that great in current raids.

Thats a pretty hefty gain to healing power.




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