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Boss Scaling and new Armor Formula


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#41 Kody

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 05:11 AM

Lord BEEF, in the Warlock tBC thread, people have confirmed (in the last few pages of it, as of this date) that Shadow Embrace affects the MOB (ie all targets).

Ah excellent. I apologize for not keeping better track myself.


One thing I've been hearing is that just how fragile non tanks are as a result of the armor and health scaling. If you're not a tank, you'll die faster to an untanked mob in the expansion than you would in live, possibly due to the armor scaling change.

edit: I'm not stating this as fact, just wondering if this agrees with the experiences of others

Yeah I think I lost ~8% mitigation going from 60 to 70. Cleaves are gonna hurt that much more. :(

Edit: I just compared live level 60 versus beta level 70 mitigation values for my rogue. I lost 9% mitigation.

#42 Melthar

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 06:00 AM

Comparing bear between live, PTR build, and current beta build, all L60 unbuffed, all full thick hide.


AC DR vs 60 DR vs 63
Live 14739 72.82 71.99
PTR 15718 72.77 68.33
Beta 18686 76.06 (75%) 71.95

If it goes live as is on PTR, that's a reasonable step up in damage vs L63 for the average bear, but if it goes live as is on beta, we'll pretty much break even before buffs, with our other changes giving us a nice boost.

#43 Kody

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 06:14 AM

Comparing bear between live, PTR build, and current beta build, all L60 unbuffed, all full thick hide.


AC DR vs 60 DR vs 63
Live 14739 72.82 71.99
PTR 15718 72.77 68.33
Beta 18686 76.06 (75%) 71.95

If it goes live as is on PTR, that's a reasonable step up in damage vs L63 for the average bear, but if it goes live as is on beta, we'll pretty much break even before buffs, with our other changes giving us a nice boost.

Ah you know what, I wonder if the armor bug from beta is on PTR right now. That may be the cause of people seeing lower mitigation compared to live at 60, since things like Cloak of Shadows were still the 41 point talent for a while(is it still the 41 pointer?).

#44 XP-Dolphin

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 06:51 AM

Thanks Gurg for reopening.

First, my little bit of extra data. As you can see from the formula, the armor mitigation starts ramping up at 60 and not after 60. As a result, players are going to see an increase in physical dps as well. About a 2% increase against mobs in the 2-3k armor range up to a 5% increase against anything at 10k armor. I did tests of live vs. ptr to see if mobs had more armor as a result of this change. It seems just like they are not rescaling the damage done by mobs, they are also not rescaling their armor. I definitely did see this dps increase as a result of the new armor formula which essentially will make us all level 64.5 according to the current formula.

Thanks to this thread, I did look into Shadow Embrace. It is specific to the mob and will help offset this some. Probably even help on the one fight I was most worried about this change for, which is Patchwerk. The more and more I see of how all the different changes work, the better and better I feel that raiding will still work just fine at 60 after this patch. In fact, I am expecting to see a nice dps increase raid wide. So we will probably have an easier time with things once we adjust to slightly higher spike damages and the changes to mods/healing.

Ah you know what, I wonder if the armor bug from beta is on PTR right now. That may be the cause of people seeing lower mitigation compared to live at 60, since things like Cloak of Shadows were still the 41 point talent for a while(is it still the 41 pointer?).

No bugged armor values are on PTR. My original post outlines why we are seeing a decrease in mitigation. In fact, you won't see a decrease on PTR on the character sheet, since that sheet is vs. level 60s which the increase in armor values seems to offset well enough as shown in Melthar's data.

Besides Shadow Embrace, there's also Scorpid Sting, which will be adding a 5% miss rate. Combined, and perhaps with some other ability I don't know of, this will neutralize much of the overall DPS increase, but Shadow Embrace helps against spikes, while Scorpid does not...

Scorpid Sting is actually a great dps decreasing ability already available to people now. However, almost all raid bosses seem to be immune to it. I always have our hunters try it, since it tends to offset the AP increase from CoR perfectly. So if we can land it, then we get CoR for free even on a newish boss. Hopefully this is not the case in the expansion end game. But I am confident that they will properly tune encounters there for the new armor formula. My big concern of bringing this here is how it will affect us right after this upcoming patch while we wait for expansion to release. Since current content is definitely not tuned with any of these changes in mind. However, it is interesting to note how they have steepened the armor formula to deal with the higher ilevel gear in the expansion.

Am I totally retarded that when I see 10k-11k and 15k-17k armor.. I think of more mitagation and not less? Could someone explain using very tiny words?

also thanks for reopening the thread.

Sorry for not being clear. I was saying that because items are getting a bit more armor, that a warrior tank with about 10k armor on live will be around 11k armor after patch. And a druid tank with 15k armor on live will have about 17k armor after patch. Both are just estimates and not completely accurate, as Melthar's data shows him gaining 1k armor. However, the point still stands that even with a nice little boost in armor from items in the patch, we will see a decrease in mitigation against level 63 mobs.

Also, those noting mitigation changes as they leveled in BC, remember that those are just against an even level opponent. So against a level 73 boss, it will be even lower by a fair portion. That has always been true of the character sheet damage reduction formulas.

#45 Melthar

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 07:01 AM

Comparing bear between live, PTR build, and current beta build, all L60 unbuffed, all full thick hide.


AC DR vs 60 DR vs 63
Live 14739 72.82 71.99
PTR 15718 72.77 68.33
Beta 18686 76.06 (75%) 71.95

If it goes live as is on PTR, that's a reasonable step up in damage vs L63 for the average bear, but if it goes live as is on beta, we'll pretty much break even before buffs, with our other changes giving us a nice boost.

Ah you know what, I wonder if the armor bug from beta is on PTR right now. That may be the cause of people seeing lower mitigation compared to live at 60, since things like Cloak of Shadows were still the 41 point talent for a while(is it still the 41 pointer?).

The difference between beta and live AC values for bear is just the changes in bear form (450% AC on beta, only +460% on live/PTR) The figures between PTR and Beta in terms of AC:DR otherwise match.




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