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The Naxx progressed "PuG" and Guild allegiance discussion...


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#1 sl4ppy

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 09:00 PM

A little background first...

On the Bronzebeard server there is a "PuG" led by a mage named Telemakos and conveniently named TelePug that is clearing the Spider-wing and Noth with impressive success. Telepug (iirc) started off as an avenue for people in guilds who have stopped doing MC, etc. a chance to fill in missing items they wanted from those instances, or to outfit their alts.

It has since seen wild success and popularity, especially with its success in AQ (up to C'thun so far) and its recent forays into Naxxramas. This is in large part due to its make-up which has become predominantly (50%+) alts from the most progressed guilds on the server. Telepug maintains its own website, forums and DKP system...

Now onto the meat:

An interesting discussion erupted today on the Bronzebeard forums concerning the legitimacy of such a progressed "pug", wether it's essentially just another "guild" and calling it a "PuG" is merely a loophole around most guilds "Single guild membership" rules... The thread starts off as a benign congratulatory thread about noth, but gets interesting at post #22. You can find the original post here.

I'm curious to what EJ readers feel about the situation? Does this PuG masquerade a veiled guild? Does it undermine a persons 'original' guild to run alts (or mains) with an equally progressed pug or competing guild? Should players have a commitment to their guild, or should simply "doing what is most fun" reign supreme?


Anyway, I thought it was an interesting discussion, and I'm eager to hear some thoughts outside the Bronzebeard universe....

edit: btw, Bronzebeard is incorrectly labeled an EU server in the profiles section. We're a Pacific US server...

#2 Ghostz

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 09:06 PM

I think your guild name is fitting. :)

Also, we had something similar on Magtheridon, but it didn't progress anywhere near as far as Naxx. It was made up of alts and people taken from IF. Most loot was freeroll, capped at 1 piece per run and no loot on your first raid with the bunch. I had no problem with people from my guild going on the weekly MC raid which then turned into a BWL raid. Though I don't have any problems with double memberships as long as it doesnt interfere with their attitude or contribution.

For reference, IIRC, when we transferred over (probably aroudn 6 months ago) they were working on Nef, not too sure what they've done since then.

#3 Zyla

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 09:12 PM

I think its great, and I participate on my warrior on a bwl clearing pug on my server which is somewhat akin to this - theres pug regulars that get priority inviting and such, and we just go in, screw around and clear the instance. Theres no loot drama, and its just a welcome relief from the stresses of serious business naxx. My guild actively encourages people to run pugs and to organize them - it helps tremendously to build additional value in members of the guild in ways that you couldnt before because of time constraints. Instead of having to trudge through mandatory ZG/MC/BWL, you can just leave it up to pugging for people to get the last few pieces they need/want. I think its great because its less stress and overhead from a guild/raid leading perspective, and allows us to focus solely on the progression content full blast and not have to worry about the other little things.

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#4 sl4ppy

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 09:17 PM

I guess I'm more curious about when the PuG groups are on equal footing progression wise as the top 1% of guilds on the server. What if that PuG you looked to alleviate some of the every-day stresses was out-progressing your guild?

Would there be jealousy? Concern about focus and commitment? etc. Would you as a player running both guild raids and more progressed PuGs become less interested in the lesser progressed guild runs over time??

I guess that's what I'm trying to get at....

#5 Drjest

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 09:20 PM

The more pointed question, Zyla, is would you take your warrior to a naxx pug? Would that interfere with your current naxx progression? This assumes you would be spending the same amount of $$ on consumables, etc. etc. for both toons.

#6 Gyshall

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 09:25 PM

Do they all wear the same guild tag? Telepug?

#7 sl4ppy

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 09:27 PM

No, they carry their original guilds tag.

#8 Ghostz

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 09:31 PM

I guess I'm more curious about when the PuG groups are on equal footing progression wise as the top 1% of guilds on the server. What if that PuG you looked to alleviate some of the every-day stresses was out-progressing your guild?

Would there be jealousy? Concern about focus and commitment? etc. Would you as a player running both guild raids and more progressed PuGs become less interested in the lesser progressed guild runs over time??

I guess that's what I'm trying to get at....

Would there be jealousy? Ofcourse. Thats how the whole argument started (I'm assuming, can't access wow forums), people start thinking about people leaving their guild, not paying as much attention to their guild, missing raids. Its also never good for morale to know that a PuG is progressing faster than your guild.

How many days per week does this pug raid? I'm assuming its at least 2-3 since they're working on both C'Thun and Naxx simultaneously. Don't the top guilds raid more often than 4-5 days?

I can fully understand leaders and officers of other guilds that are lesser or similarly progressed as the pug to be worried and tell their members to pick one, because sooner or later its gonna turn into a "I get better loot raiding with them, why should I raid with you" deal and its gonna start tearing guilds apart.

#9 Taikero

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 09:34 PM

There's a raiding alliance on Cenarion Circle called the CCRA that is currently the most progressed Alliance group in Naxxramas (Mainly because all the big guilds broke up.).

Personally, I wish guilds could and would function like a lot of "PuGs" do, at least semi-organized PuGs. Usually when a group wipes, there's little blame and it's simply, "What did we do wrong, let's try again." As well, loot drama is very non-existent usually since people are usually polite in such situations.

I think it's fine to have such organizations, but it is really the same thing, just without the /guild channel.

#10 Kalroth

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 09:35 PM

A PuG is a pickup group. Once you've got a regular team of people, it's no longer a true PuG.

In this case it's a mix of well equipped characters (mains) with Naxxramas experience and mediocre equipped characters (alts) but also with Naxxramas experience. But more importantly they got raid experience and they seem to know each other and how to react in raids.

This group of players is more like an alliance of players from several guilds and thus isn't a PuG anymore. In my opinion. :)

As for the "single guild membership rule"; as long as a guild member knows his/her priorities, eg. shows up for guild raids and are prepared, then I couldn't care less what they do in their free time. If they want to raid Naxxramas, then more power to them. Skilled and raid hungry players are rare, you have to treasure those that you got. :)

#11 Hamlet

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 09:38 PM

Any old LB Alliance vets know all about the assorted messes of giant mixed-guild raid conglomerations. We had an enormous one that stifled the appearance of new raid guilds for like six months.

#12 Mosh

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 10:49 PM

If there were members of my guild doing this, I'd consider it OK as long as it didn't interfere with stuff we do in our guild. We have people going on various lower-end PUGs when we're not raiding, but when we are, I expect everyone to be fully ready (including not being locked to the instance we're going to).

#13 Ngita

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 11:38 PM

Well we booted someone in similar circumstances. We have no problem with someone attending pugs it must have no affect on your attendance in our raids. In the case of the person we booted a couple of the factors where We were doing a mc run for bindings and t2 pants. Certainly not compulsory or progression but if your online your expected to attend and we where around 35 in raid. They logged on, Got invited and arrived in mc and asked for a summon, We had just pulled a boss, so Hold on was said. 2-3 mins later after still not being summoned they log off, Except then a known alt logs in and suprise,suprise 5 later is in mc with a pug while we are also in mc . A warrning was given. A few weeks later we knew the pug was breaking bwl late at night and the next day we had a progression aq40. She did a pretty bad job and was obviously tired. Next week same thing and 5 mins after logging in begged of our twin emps attempts with "I am tired and have a headache". That was enough that she was told either cut back on your pugging or you will be asked to leave and in the end she was booted.

#14 rhyd

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 12:19 AM

If it doesn't interfere with the player's performance and attendance for their main, then more power to them.

We have a few people in my (alliance) guild that love raiding and have a horde alts that they raid with on our offdays. I, myself, have a priest alt that looks like a main: hit rank 13, exalted with several factions like CC, has half t2 as well as assorted dps toys. We also have members who guild their alts with MC-ish guilds, and help guide them through the encounters plus Ony, Hakkar etc.

For our case specifically, there's a strong correlation between our best players and active alts, be it in our guild or some others.

#15 Ragnor

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 01:11 AM

It starts to get funny when people are playing their alt in the "pug" instead of their main in the guild run. I'm assuming the pug run occurs at a time that doesn't coincide with the big guilds raid times or their would be hella drama soon enough.
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#16 Kaubel

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 01:21 AM

Ofcourse.

STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP.

Someone please PLEASE tell me at what point in time everyone started thinking that "of course" was one word. It's almost as freaking bad now as the your/you're misspelling.

I've been trying to concentrate on studying for my Proof Methods test tomorrow, and all I can think of is your hotness, radiating out from the pixels on my monitor, seared straight into my neurons.


#17 Proeliata

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 01:30 AM

Someone please PLEASE tell me at what point in time everyone started thinking that "of course" was one word. It's almost as freaking bad now as the your/you're misspelling.

There are alot of people who think that, its apart of posting on the Internet to see such mistake's.

(That hurt to write. >_>)

To the OP, I think this should be decided on a case-by-case basis. Guilds are like people, different guilds require different levels of "commitment." Some guilds don't care if people raid with others, some guilds are upset if you have a non-raiding alt in another guild.

Whatever drama is inherent in the situation will work itself out--if it manages to work out peacefully, then so much the better for the members of the group and for the server--it sounds pretty awesome to have a fairly open raiding organization like that, if they are indeed as open as the term "pug" implies.

If they're not that open, then I'd be hard pressed to see the difference between them and a guild, and maybe that's how it will work itself out. That seems to be the fate of many alliances anyway.

#18 Drakonious

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 01:50 AM

If done correctly this system is a very good system IMO. I'm sure the EJ guys, and practically anyone on Mal'Ganis can atest to how well similar systems work. Bee A Honey has a guild alliance with Giant Censored Robots and Tusk and Talon for MC/ZG/AQ20, it's a PUG in some definition of the word, but it's within those three guilds, it's open for alts and mains alike. This system is awesome for players who've had bad luck with loot in MC, or want their AQ books, ZG rep, etc. etc. even though their guild as a whole is tired of running those instances. Since it's a Tri-guild sanctioned alliance there's no risk to the player of reprisal for being in these "PUGs."

The TelePug in question operates outside and indepently of the main's guilds, which is why it's obviously catching flak. But imo, if it's only alts, then the guilds really have no room to complain because they accepted the person's Main into the guild, expect the main to raid, depend on the main, not their alt.

#19 Oggie

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 01:56 AM

For those skimming the thread and not seeing any personal relivance, I'd like to ponit out one thing- Karahazan.

Obviously your high attendence raid times will be 25 mans (for most guilds posting on this board, anyway), but what to do with a raid-locked 10 man? Currently on beta it's going down fairly quickly, but I'd say it's a reasonably safe bet that they are going to increase the difficulty a fair amount, and so you have a reasonably high skill level instance with a much smaller basis, that will in all probability be run durring off-raid hours.

So while most of us don't have this sort of situation going on (perhaps), I think that there's some stuff we can learn from these experinces to figure out how to handle this sort of thing.

It makes me want to hit Marge Thatcher on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.


#20 Lumi

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 02:24 AM

Honestly, 10 mans are small enough to be mostly guildmates/friends, especially with challenging and fun content. It might be 'PuG" in the sense of a few guilds being representative, but its really a far cry from spamming LFG UBRS.




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