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The Naxx progressed "PuG" and Guild allegiance discussion...


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#21 Rz

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 03:04 AM

Ofcourse.

STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP.

Someone please PLEASE tell me at what point in time everyone started thinking that "of course" was one word. It's almost as freaking bad now as the your/you're misspelling.

It probably happened around the same time that "ridiculous" started being spelled with an "e", which is the one that absolutely drives me up the god damn wall.

#22 Vhex

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 03:45 AM

This isn't really all that different from multi-guild alliances that were fairly common in EQ. With the added bonus that you don't have to worry about dicking over "real" guilds. We often had peoples alts joining/helping these alliances as well just because sometimes it's fun to go back and take some newbs through a zone. During PoP I led an open raiding organization with over 600 members. It was amazing the tells I got after we'd kill like Saryrn or Mith Marr. People who never had a chance in hell to even -see- these encounters were just amazed at the whole experience.

So I guess it depends on how you define your own guild. Some guilds really are put together for the sole focus of loot, believe me I was in one. It stayed together because we kept winning but I don't think anybody ever talked in Guildchat. A guild like that might have a problem with it because you're 'circumventing' the loot system in place to get more.

But my main focus for a guild now is a place where I can relax and have fun while still kicking ass and if people want to go join pug raids on their free time, I'm all for it. Hell, I've even gone on a few pug raids myself and we've done a few pug ZG's as well.

It's good times.

#23 Zyla

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 04:19 AM

The more pointed question, Zyla, is would you take your warrior to a naxx pug? Would that interfere with your current naxx progression? This assumes you would be spending the same amount of $$ on consumables, etc. etc. for both toons.

If there was one, absolutely. But I would always keep in mind that it is supplemental to my commitments as co-guild leader, occasional raid leader and officer of my guild. Honestly, the pugs I participate in are a welcome change from the responsibility of the position I've chosen to play for my guild. After doing my best to motivate and teach 50-60 others, its nice to be the somewhat anonymous token fury warrior bashing away at things mindlessly in a raid. In many ways, it has enhanced my enjoyment of the game, as it lets me play from a completely different situation, it enhances my understanding of not only my own role in my guild but also lets me peer under the hood of how other guilds work and operate and treat their members.

There are many ways that this arrangement can go poorly, however, and many of them have already been outlined. Some members are so on the bubble that they might fight this new pug to be more enjoyable to play in then their main and that hurts guilds. I do feel that if that is the catalyst for someone leaving, they might not have been right for the guild to begin with, or their priorities lie elsewhere. It also depends on the atmosphere of the pug group. The more it resembles a real guild, the stronger these issues may present themselves.

Of course theres also side benefits, like being able to scout for new talent, and also who to watch out for. A few pugs that meandered their way through the pugs were denied on their apps because I had been there to see how they behave and interact without them even knowing ^.^. I would even go so far as to say if you're a newer player that isn't currently in a progression guild to make their best efforts to attend these multiple guild sponsored pugs in an effort to get noticed.

I can fully understand leaders and officers of other guilds that are lesser or similarly progressed as the pug to be worried and tell their members to pick one, because sooner or later its gonna turn into a "I get better loot raiding with them, why should I raid with you" deal and its gonna start tearing guilds apart.

Again, it all hinges on the goals and motivation of both the pug and the guild. If the guild is there to progress and get lots of loot, then if the pug is passing them, then it's failing at its mission pretty horribly and its understandable that people will leave. Can't say I blame them. The only thing worse then a guild built on greed and envy, is a guild built on greed and envy that sucks. The guilds that have a stronger foundation and have the right understanding of what one should be really wouldn't be threatened by the pugs, because the appeal comes from the guild, not from the loot or the progression.

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#24 krucifix85

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 04:27 AM

Haha, yep, we did and still do (even though we don't raid as a guild any more, hehe) PuG MC's, and when we were raiding, we were able to poach one or two very good healers, who were at the time in non-raiding guilds...

#25 DeusEx

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 07:22 AM

The "TelePUG" concept is a great for minimzing burnout syndroms, that almost everyone fally prey to sooner or later. Most people get bored on their mains, and who is to blame them for securing their fun by taking an alt to such a group. I would guess a happy player that is spending part of their time in alternate group is worth more to their "main guild", then is a burnt out player who will eventually quit the guild or even the game as whole. Who didn't wish to change class from time to time or simply group up with other good players on your server, you can't usally raid with because they are in another guild?

If someone enjoys the PUG runs so much more than raiding with his original guild, then, let's face it, it's a problem of the original guild in the first place. This guild has to ask itself some serious questions, how they treat their members. From my experience many mid-tier raiding guilds fail eventually because guild leadership develops some "delusions of power" so to speak. Many guilds chartas and policies are rife with articifical rules and restrictions forced upon their members that have no real rationale, but to sooth the illusion of power for the respective guild leadership: forced specs, awkward alt and reroll policies, loot councils, attendance requirements even for out-progressed content and the worst of all, fuzzy statements of "allegiance" and "loyality". As long as you participate in progression content with your guild, it shouldn't really be anyones business what you do during the rest of your gaming time. If guild leadership tries to coerce it's members to refrain from such an activity, they are simply abusing their members for the sake of their illusional power gain.

Perhaps it is not only "illusion of power" but the "WoW is serious business" fallacy. If people are having fun, that can't be good for progression right? Because if they would be really "committed" they wouldn't have fun, but would suffer through it for the "good of the guild".
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#26 Masq

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 07:40 AM

If you have a DKP system, I doubt you're a "PuG".

But does it matter if people raid with another guild? If anything their members are getting more experience from raiding then they would be from their own single raids. Also, getting used to running with other people outside your guild is a great avenue to recruit from.

Personally I think its a great idea and I applaud them for being relatively successful.

#27 Dakous

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 07:54 AM

An interesting discussion erupted today on the Bronzebeard forums concerning the legitimacy of such a progressed "pug", wether it's essentially just another "guild" and calling it a "PuG" is merely a loophole around most guilds "Single guild membership" rules... [...]
I'm curious to what EJ readers feel about the situation? Does this PuG masquerade a veiled guild? Does it undermine a persons 'original' guild to run alts (or mains) with an equally progressed pug or competing guild? Should players have a commitment to their guild, or should simply "doing what is most fun" reign supreme?

I view a guild as a social contract - if I pledge to be there for the guild, the guild pledges to be there for me, and thus we are all one big happy raiding family. In a hardcore raid guild, and in a social one, while the presumptions were alternate - presumed attendance (post if you'll be absent!) versus presumed absense (post if you'll be there!), they were the same basis.

If you're in a guild, fulfilling your social contract to them and they to you, what's the problem? This is, in my mind, the definition of a semantic argument. "What is a PUG?" Cut it down a little and we're on, "Depends what 'is' is." The question boils down to if they both raid Wednesday at 8pm, which one are you going to show up to? That is your guild, and the other is an organized PUG. I know that sounds like a contradiction, but take PUG from "the streets" if you will - a pick up game. Doesn't matter if the pick up game is essentially scheduled every Thursday at 5 with the same 5 people, it's still a pick up game.

Moreover, it's up to the guilds in question and why they have those rules. If they believe multi-raiding will induce burnout, then "what is a guild" is completely irrelevent. If they're worried about retention, then in my mind they have bigger issues to which they can't legislate solutions.

Finally, it's a game. Make it unfun and people will stop playing (dealer's choice of: with you/altogether).
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#28 Robespierre

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 08:18 AM

Ofcourse.

STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP.

Someone please PLEASE tell me at what point in time everyone started thinking that "of course" was one word. It's almost as freaking bad now as the your/you're misspelling.

That is about on the level as loose/lose. I cringe every time I see the loose/lose mistake in someone's posting.

There was a pick up raid for Horde on Warsong that was known as PuGRaid but I didn't know much about how they operated due to being on the alliance side. From what I remember they progressed pretty well but I think eventually it broke up.

I do like the idea of the public raids but only had a short bit of experience with allied guild raids. Do they usually break up due to loot drama or folks getting enough people to do things on their own?

#29 Judia

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 08:53 AM

I would have been interesting to see how it developed if TBC were not so close.
Personally, I believe the TelePUG is conducting itself like a full blown raid guild, even if it is populated by many alts. As such given 2/3 months (and if TBC wasnt around the corner) I would not have been suprized to see it break away as a new guild.

I would agree that is it more of a cross-guild alt-alliance than a PuG. I think the PuG is relly thrown in to boost the egos of the participants:
"OMG we kileld Naxx in a PUG !!"

Is more of an ego stroke than
"I took my alt to Naxx"

I do like the idea of the public raids but only had a short bit of experience with allied guild raids. Do they usually break up due to loot drama or folks getting enough people to do things on their own?

This christmas will be the 18 month anniversary of our cross-guild alliance, AFAIK we are one of the oldest of such arrangements still going in WoW. We are too all intents and purpose a raiding guild, without a name over our head; to whit we take applications directly to the raid group rather than the substituant guilds.
To err is human

#30 Zoro

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 02:28 PM

How rediculous, ofcourse your overreacting if we let lose a few grammer errors.

Ahem.

To be honest, I don't see the appeal of re-entering MC either on my main or my alt. BWL? Well, the guild runs a trip on the off day I can't make, but I'd honestly rather grind for herbs/cash/alt than attend a PuG. Not had the best of histories horde side my server has PuG raids.

PuG Nax?
Good grief. I don't think my WoW bank balance could cope with that aside from a few easy Razu/Anub kills.

I'd like to subscribe to the principle 'as long as it doesn't hurt your main guild responsabilities, do what you like' philosophy, but I just don't think that's doable any more.

There's always something you could do to better you or your guilds NAxx performance. More repair costs, more consumables etc. Gone are the days where raiding wasn't a full time (WoW-time) occupation...

#31 Goggles

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 03:46 PM

About 90% of the raid groups on Earthen Ring EU are not guilds or even guild alliances. They're just groups of people who've got together to raid with absolutely no guild affiliations (although certain guilds tend to drift towards certain groups). Sounds exactly like what this TelePUG thing is now. I jumped into TAQ last night to see 10 people from 10 different guilds. It's not an uncommon sight but we're certainly not a PUG. I recently switched groups, I didn't switch guilds. This is the norm, rather than an exception on ER.
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#32 Zyla

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 07:15 PM

I view a guild as a social contract - if I pledge to be there for the guild, the guild pledges to be there for me, and thus we are all one big happy raiding family. In a hardcore raid guild, and in a social one, while the presumptions were alternate - presumed attendance (post if you'll be absent!) versus presumed absense (post if you'll be there!), they were the same basis.

Finally, it's a game. Make it unfun and people will stop playing (dealer's choice of: with you/altogether).

I wonder why social guilds and hardcore guilds are considered to necessarily separate. It seems to me, that if the guild is to be of any significance, it has to be both at the same time, or its doomed to failure or shortcuts. I guess it just bothers me to see guilds that absolutely tear through basically the entire server, recruiting over and over again to maintain their edge by pushing their members to the edge and then dumping them when they crack. It doesn't seem healthy.

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That's right, I met my future wife through Zyla. :shudder:


#33 Dakous

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 07:37 PM

I wonder why social guilds and hardcore guilds are considered to necessarily separate.

A social guild would not care if the hunters did not know what an aimed shot rotation is, or how agility compares to RAP/AP on an item.

They will be necessarily separate until the end of time for that reason.

Whether you want to say everyone is pals in a hardcore guild and thus, "social", is a semantic argument and using the wrong context of the word.
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#34 Myonax

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 09:44 PM

That is about on the level as loose/lose. I cringe every time I see the loose/lose mistake in someone's posting.

There was a pick up raid for Horde on Warsong that was known as PuGRaid but I didn't know much about how they operated due to being on the alliance side. From what I remember they progressed pretty well but I think eventually it broke up.

I do like the idea of the public raids but only had a short bit of experience with allied guild raids. Do they usually break up due to loot drama or folks getting enough people to do things on their own?

No, we are still around on Warsong (www.pugraid.com) we have 3 Naxx bosses down, and have ouro down in aq40. We operate independent of guilds, there is a optional guild you can join that is only affiliated with pugraid, but if you stop raiding you are removed from the guild. We Raid 4 times a week so no one in pugraid is an alt, unlike telepug. I personally enjoy it since my guild isn't interested in raiding, but I have no interest in leaving them for purples.

#35 Robespierre

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 10:03 PM

No, we are still around on Warsong (www.pugraid.com) we have 3 Naxx bosses down, and have ouro down in aq40. We operate independent of guilds, there is a optional guild you can join that is only affiliated with pugraid, but if you stop raiding you are removed from the guild. We Raid 4 times a week so no one in pugraid is an alt, unlike telepug. I personally enjoy it since my guild isn't interested in raiding, but I have no interest in leaving them for purples.

Ah, thank you for the clarification. Interesting to look up what you folks have done as an alternative to a "all one banner" raid.

Has keeping pugraid going gotten more difficult as time has gone on?

As a side note: Is Xarxet an all warlock guild? That's all I ever saw carrying the tag.

#36 Antiphonal

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 10:47 PM

There is something fairly similar on the Malygos server (US-Central PvE), though we only do 20-man content. Basically, a group of folks tired of not being able to raid during their preferred times decided to band together and take on Zul'Gurub. We have members that range from Tier2 Rogues, to PvP-Grind Warlocks, to people that arrived in blues but now wear purples just from ZG and AQ20. Everyone has their own reasons for being there (challenge, fun, rep, gear) and we get along very well. We recently scored our first kill on Ossirian - completing the content in the current game.

Because we haven't had our own /guild channel, we have been able to go through growing pains that usually kill raiding guilds. We had to hammer out an alt policy (which is the most reasonable and flexible I have ever seen), switch from free-roll to DKP, had key players transfer to other servers (we raid with oceanic times on a US server), and even had the dreaded tier-jump agony (ZG -> AQ20 is something of a rude awakening). Because we all have our own guilds (some raiding, some purely social, some in between), our disagreements never boiled over.

We've enjoyed raiding with each other so much that we're very excited about the new TBC content. As of now, the 20-mans are not really progression level stuff, even though both have quite nice gear and are somewhat taxing on raid skills (for us at least). But with KZ being 10-person and the biggest raids being 25, we're looking to recruit a few more people instead of hoping people leave of their own accord.

That said, ZG and AQ20 have minimal farming requirements and even when working on bosses, we would rarely net more than 10g in repairs (blue gear and Tier1 ftw!). I have no idea what would happen if we were working on stuff that required MASSIVE farming to sustain. At that point we as individuals might have to make some decisions about which raid is our focus.

#37 Myonax

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Posted 29 November 2006 - 10:56 PM

Has keeping pugraid going gotten more difficult as time has gone on?

Yes, when we had MC on farm and were learning BWL (before naxx/aq) we would turn over a lot of people as they would use us to gear up then apply to a farther progressed guild. Now since all the major guilds have left we have had a difficult time finding skilled English speaking raiders. For those that don't know Warsong got adopted by the Brazilians and Russians as their unofficial server. A good portion of Warsong is Brazilians and Russians and many don't speak great English. This led to a major exodus of all the top tier Horde Raiding guilds to Korgath and making our recruiting pool slim.

As a side note: Is Xarxet an all warlock guild? That's all I ever saw carrying the tag.

You are thinking of Xeque which, yes, is an all warlock guild. Xarxet is an old AC/AC2/SWG Guild.

#38 Goggles

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Posted 30 November 2006 - 10:02 AM

Ah, thank you for the clarification. Interesting to look up what you folks have done as an alternative to a "all one banner" raid.

Has keeping pugraid going gotten more difficult as time has gone on?

As a side note: Is Xarxet an all warlock guild? That's all I ever saw carrying the tag.

I think the definition of PUG is completely wrong here. In my opinion a PUG is a group that isn't organised, it comes together on the spot and members are random. Telepug/Pugraid are organised groups with a fairly consistent membership but no guild affiliation. As I said previously this is the norm for Earthen Ring, not the exception. These groups are exactly the same as guilds except we don't get free guild/officer channels (custom channels are used instead generally). On ER the furthest progressed of these groups has 9 Naxx kills (the furthest progressed guild has 10).

The real difference I think between raid groups and guilds is what goes on outside of raids rather than in raids. A guild is more likely to do stuff together whereas the individual members of groups tend to don't (this isn't to say they don't PvP/group together but it's rarer). Guilds also get much more recognition (good and bad) than groups. I can immediately tell who is in the main raid guild on the server, it's much less obvious who is in the main raid group. It certainly confuses fresh level 60s/server transfers when they ask me where my guild is up to and my reply is that we don't raid together. The guild I'm in has people raiding in 3 or 4 different raid groups.

The only way in which I think the running of a group over a guild can get more difficult over time is when cliques start forming within a group as people filter into similar guilds. I'm sure it happens in guild too but it's not as obvious due to everyone having the same guild tag. Also the guild leader has some measure of power in that they can kick/invite people at will however in reality this is rarely an issue.
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#39 Pyria

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Posted 30 November 2006 - 12:39 PM

How rediculous, ofcourse your overreacting if we let lose a few grammer errors.

Its wierd how bad speling effects people, even when its not relavant to the sitiuation!

About 90% of the raid groups on Earthen Ring EU are not guilds or even guild alliances. They're just groups of people who've got together to raid with absolutely no guild affiliations (although certain guilds tend to drift towards certain groups). Sounds exactly like what this TelePUG thing is now. I jumped into TAQ last night to see 10 people from 10 different guilds. It's not an uncommon sight but we're certainly not a PUG. I recently switched groups, I didn't switch guilds. This is the norm, rather than an exception on ER.

This does lead to some interesting consequences. Much like ER, AD raiding consists mostly of guild alliances and "communities", the Happy Funtime Crew does not exist as a guild. Guilds turn into a disposable tag with an extra chat channel, so friends inside the raid community will migrate from one guild tag to another, as well as throwaway joke guilds turning up (I saw the leader and main officer of another prominent community in Naxx running around with <and two stealthed rogues>). We've seen guilds housing significant amounts of members of several raid groups which can break up horribly if there's tension or competition between groups, as well as leading to a pretty intricate network of gossip, relationships and insiders.

The result is that people drift into dizzying arrays and constellations of subcommunities, which I haven't really seen to have any significant effect on raiding but find fascinating to watch.


As as amusing aside, back when we were having trouble with Anub'rekhan's evade bugging on Impale we paged a GM. He showed up and asked that we try to reproduce the bug (whereupon we proceeded to wipe several embarassing times due to stage fright), and when the evening was over, he left us with the parting note that we were "doing pretty well considering you're not a guild".

That had us staring for a while.

#40 Goggles

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Posted 30 November 2006 - 01:27 PM

This does lead to some interesting consequences. Much like ER, AD raiding consists mostly of guild alliances and "communities", the Happy Funtime Crew does not exist as a guild. Guilds turn into a disposable tag with an extra chat channel, so friends inside the raid community will migrate from one guild tag to another, as well as throwaway joke guilds turning up (I saw the leader and main officer of another prominent community in Naxx running around with <and two stealthed rogues>). We've seen guilds housing significant amounts of members of several raid groups which can break up horribly if there's tension or competition between groups, as well as leading to a pretty intricate network of gossip, relationships and insiders.

The result is that people drift into dizzying arrays and constellations of subcommunities, which I haven't really seen to have any significant effect on raiding but find fascinating to watch.

Is this an RP server thing perhaps? AD and ER were the original 2 EU RP servers and it sounds like the 2 communities are very similar (although I've not seen a joke guild with quite as good a name as <and two stealthed rogues>).
Not actually a member of Refusion on Burning Blade.




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