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The Naxx progressed "PuG" and Guild allegiance discussion...


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#41 darchrys

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Posted 30 November 2006 - 02:32 PM

Is this an RP server thing perhaps? AD and ER were the original 2 EU RP servers and it sounds like the 2 communities are very similar (although I've not seen a joke guild with quite as good a name as <and two stealthed rogues>).

I think it is. I think guilds on RP servers can either be hugely important social groupings for people (I've been in the same guild with one name change since release), or entirely trashy throwaway devices that let you put amusing and sometimes witty remarks under your name (<floorwarmers incorporated> is my favourite on ER at the moment).

In the former case, the effects of people leaving can be quite dramatic. Way back, not that long after EU release, and just at the point where there were enough level 60's around to start raiding seriously on our server, the currently most progressed Naxx guild on Earthen Ring formed.

I remember the absolute HOWLS of outrage that came up from members of the smaller guilds when their two or three level 60 players were "poached" to join that raid guild. There were literally people who refused to talk to former guildies who they felt had betrayed them and their original guild. Even to this day, now approaching two years on, there are people who look down on that guild because of how they formed and because what sticks in the memory is how some of their guildies left them to join a 'non RP focused' guild. It's really quite bizarre to observe sometimes!

#42 Tanoh

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Posted 01 December 2006 - 10:43 AM

*waves at Googles and Darchrys* :)

It's true that there are a lot of raid groups on Earthen Ring (EU), it seems to be a RP thing. On RP servers people are into guilds for roleplaying reasons which are formed when they're leveling (I used to be in an undead only guild that fought for reclaiming land for example). Usually those who play on RP servers wants... RP :) to a varying degree.

I'm now in a raid guild (the old raid group folded) and RP mostly with alts every now and then, I used to be in a raid group that cleared the whole of BWL and had started at AQ40 (we had a bumpy ride with starting over in MC because of various reasons, hence why we were so behind). There's really no difference between group and guild, except the different guild tags. We have the same organisation and progress as guilds. Guild is just a tag associated, it's not a requisite for raiding.

On the server (horde side) there was one guy that organised Naxxramas raids across raid groups. Most of our raid groups didn't focus on Naxx yet as we were busy in BWL & AQ40. Those of us who wanted progress and new content all the time signed up for his runs and it was a lot of fun. I agree with Googles above that it's not a PUG. PUG is standing around Orgrimmar saying "LF39M Naxx!".

#43 Goggles

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Posted 01 December 2006 - 11:05 AM

Goggles damn it! I wear goggles, not multiple search engines! :D

The odd thing is that while it seems to be an RP server thing, very few people actually roleplay actively (me wearing goggles whenever I'm not in an instance is about the only concession to roleplaying that I make).

Even the Horde group that organised the cross raid group trips to Naxx could only partially be called a PUG. No dkp or anything as far as I saw but they did have forums (I've also got a character in PI(E) if you were wondering Tanoh). An impressive feat still to get Razuvious given the nature of the group.
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#44 Elerion

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Posted 01 December 2006 - 12:44 PM

To nitpick: Seeing as Razuvious pretty much is done by 2 people (arguably 6) and 34/38 spammers, I'd say it's one of the easiest high end PuG encounters available. It stands in stark contrast to the individual player focus of most encounters from Emps and forward. Anub is really an easier encounter for a hardcore guild, but vastly more challenging for a PuG, since every idiot adds an extra challenge.

I don't see an issue with organized PuGs like this as long as guild leadership knows how to handle it. If your members start prioritizing the PuG over guild raids or necessary consumable farming, it's time to take action. If they still perform well for the guild, it's just another thing keeping your players happy, which is a good thing.

#45 Tanoh

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Posted 01 December 2006 - 12:53 PM

Goggles damn it! I wear goggles, not multiple search engines! :D

Hehe. Sorry! :>

The odd thing is that while it seems to be an RP server thing, very few people actually roleplay actively (me wearing goggles whenever I'm not in an instance is about the only concession to roleplaying that I make).

WoW isn't really suited for roleplaying, it's so static and well at this point I'm mostly playing on an RP server to get less mindless "lol", "k" etc.. I do however implant some quirks in all my chars, like my orc warrior is dumb as a brick (not something unique but fun to play at least), he always wears a cool hat when he's not tanking and never remembers names on people or even races. Things like that. Going around fulltime RP:ing is not something I'd want from WoW.

It's highly annoying seeing those that doesn't care one bit about RP though, I'd never do things in /say like "Oh the server is so lagged tonight" like random people in Orgrimmar does. I wonder, why are they on an RP server if they don't even try the least to refrain from such comments?


Even the Horde group that organised the cross raid group trips to Naxx could only partially be called a PUG. No dkp or anything as far as I saw but they did have forums (I've also got a character in PI(E) if you were wondering Tanoh). An impressive feat still to get Razuvious given the nature of the group.

No DKP, but forums and you signed up for the raids. Which in my book is not a PUG. PUG is emphasise on the PU part (pick up), ie you pick them up as you go along or as you're about to login. If you signup in advance etc, you're not a PUG...

Oh, and did you raid? I was in some of the Horde groups adventures, but then my raid force started doing Naxx so I couldn't go anymore. :)


To nitpick: Seeing as Razuvious pretty much is done by 2 people (arguably 6) and 34/38 spammers, I'd say it's one of the easiest high end PuG encounters available.

I assume you replied to Goggles and my discussion about ER (eu) horde group.. Why do you assume that those there sucks? It was people from other raid groups on the server that at the moment didn't do Naxxramas but certain players in those groups wanted to try it. So we all had good raid experience and adequate equipment. Not like we stood around in Orgrimmar "/2 LF29M Naxx! must be 60! whisp me plz!!!".

#46 Ghostz

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Posted 01 December 2006 - 02:29 PM

I wonder why social guilds and hardcore guilds are considered to necessarily separate.

A social guild would not care if the hunters did not know what an aimed shot rotation is, or how agility compares to RAP/AP on an item.

They will be necessarily separate until the end of time for that reason.

Whether you want to say everyone is pals in a hardcore guild and thus, "social", is a semantic argument and using the wrong context of the word.

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if our hunters had no clue of what an aimed shot rotation was, and I'd consider us pretty hardcore. Its not the little details that define a guild. If anything, being hardcore is a guild mentality. My alt was in a slower progressing (around half a zone behind the top guilds of the server) guild for a couple of months back in the day, and the biggest difference I picked up was that they didn't really care if they killed a boss for the first time this week or next week. While we'd do everything in our power (granted its reasonable) to take him down ASAP. That usually leads to more time spent raiding newer, unbeaten content per week, which is probably one of the best ways to separate the "hardcore" from the "casual".


Also...

Ofcourse.

STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP.

Someone please PLEASE tell me at what point in time everyone started thinking that "of course" was one word. It's almost as freaking bad now as the your/you're misspelling.

That is about on the level as loose/lose. I cringe every time I see the loose/lose mistake in someone's posting.

Does it really make you that mad that I missed a space? Seems like your loosing your mind over a typo. :(

#47 Lanky

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Posted 01 December 2006 - 03:36 PM

I view a guild as a social contract - if I pledge to be there for the guild, the guild pledges to be there for me, and thus we are all one big happy raiding family. In a hardcore raid guild, and in a social one, while the presumptions were alternate - presumed attendance (post if you'll be absent!) versus presumed absense (post if you'll be there!), they were the same basis.

Finally, it's a game. Make it unfun and people will stop playing (dealer's choice of: with you/altogether).

I wonder why social guilds and hardcore guilds are considered to necessarily separate. It seems to me, that if the guild is to be of any significance, it has to be both at the same time, or its doomed to failure or shortcuts. I guess it just bothers me to see guilds that absolutely tear through basically the entire server, recruiting over and over again to maintain their edge by pushing their members to the edge and then dumping them when they crack. It doesn't seem healthy.

It isn't. People hear the grinding of machine gears and start drama or jump ship. I do enjoy the social contract idea of guildhood, and I am thinking the analolgy can go a long way, since in either hypothetical or actual social contract theory the following characteristics emerge that one can see in guilds:

1. "Sovereign" placed above populace to rule, be it a President, GM, or King.
2. A chief good such as security, regular phat lootz, property, or human rights is protected by the institution. Maybe all at once. (That would be a special guild)
3. A "natural" state which occurs before the contract: Guildless. The game certainly does not ship with your character in a guild.
4. A concept of distributive justice, what WoW gamers would equate to a DKP or points-by system, although conceptions of justice vary (see: officer distribution)

#48 Goggles

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Posted 01 December 2006 - 04:55 PM

1. "Sovereign" placed above populace to rule, be it a President, GM, or King.

This is an interesting point. In most of the raid groups I've seen on ER do not have defined leaders but are usually led by councils or similar. The raid guilds on the other hand tend to have more definitive leaders. In the group I'm in at the moment decisions are mainly made first with a forum discussion and when the possibly options have been defined, a poll is made to decide the matter. There is no defined leadership or even council as such. Raid leaders are voted in by polls too. It actually works surprisingly well although that's likely more down to the people than the system.
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#49 Guest_Abbi_*

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Posted 01 December 2006 - 05:16 PM

Is this an RP server thing perhaps? AD and ER were the original 2 EU RP servers and it sounds like the 2 communities are very similar (although I've not seen a joke guild with quite as good a name as <and two stealthed rogues>).

It's not the case on ER US, but raid groups/coalitions are certainly part of the landscape. I think it's precisely because RP servers see more social guilds; there's the motivation to guild up for RP reasons as opposed to game reasons, which you simply don't get on non-RP servers.

SASU is around 500 people right now, which I suspect is one of the bigger raid groups in WoW. If you're thinking it's unwieldy and probably a bit of a mess -- yep. It's way behind other cross-guild coalitions I'm aware of in terms of advancement, with no Naxx progression and only Skeram in AQ40. But that's because there's minimal screening in terms of membership and raid roster creation, not because it's a coalition.

There are a number of smaller coalitions on ER with varying degrees of success. I don't think any of them recruit outside the two or three guilds which comprise them.

I'm putting together a coalition created with progress in mind for BC; there won't be automatic membership for any particular guild, although there are a couple of guilds that'll be at the center of it. We'll see how it goes.

#50 Proeliata

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Posted 01 December 2006 - 06:32 PM

It isn't. People hear the grinding of machine gears and start drama or jump ship. I do enjoy the social contract idea of guildhood, and I am thinking the analolgy can go a long way, since in either hypothetical or actual social contract theory the following characteristics emerge that one can see in guilds:

1. "Sovereign" placed above populace to rule, be it a President, GM, or King.
2. A chief good such as security, regular phat lootz, property, or human rights is protected by the institution. Maybe all at once. (That would be a special guild)
3. A "natural" state which occurs before the contract: Guildless. The game certainly does not ship with your character in a guild.
4. A concept of distributive justice, what WoW gamers would equate to a DKP or points-by system, although conceptions of justice vary (see: officer distribution)

I've actually been writing an essay about the guild as a social contract. >_> Stop stealing my ideas! :)

#51 Felippe

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Posted 01 December 2006 - 06:58 PM

It isn't. People hear the grinding of machine gears and start drama or jump ship. I do enjoy the social contract idea of guildhood, and I am thinking the analolgy can go a long way, since in either hypothetical or actual social contract theory the following characteristics emerge that one can see in guilds:

1. "Sovereign" placed above populace to rule, be it a President, GM, or King.
2. A chief good such as security, regular phat lootz, property, or human rights is protected by the institution. Maybe all at once. (That would be a special guild)
3. A "natural" state which occurs before the contract: Guildless. The game certainly does not ship with your character in a guild.
4. A concept of distributive justice, what WoW gamers would equate to a DKP or points-by system, although conceptions of justice vary (see: officer distribution)

I've actually been writing an essay about the guild as a social contract. >_> Stop stealing my ideas! :)

Hold up now, this is a bunch of people getting together to play a game you're talking about. What exactly are you trying to prove with your essay?

#52 Proeliata

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Posted 01 December 2006 - 07:07 PM

It isn't. People hear the grinding of machine gears and start drama or jump ship. I do enjoy the social contract idea of guildhood, and I am thinking the analolgy can go a long way, since in either hypothetical or actual social contract theory the following characteristics emerge that one can see in guilds:

1. "Sovereign" placed above populace to rule, be it a President, GM, or King.
2. A chief good such as security, regular phat lootz, property, or human rights is protected by the institution. Maybe all at once. (That would be a special guild)
3. A "natural" state which occurs before the contract: Guildless. The game certainly does not ship with your character in a guild.
4. A concept of distributive justice, what WoW gamers would equate to a DKP or points-by system, although conceptions of justice vary (see: officer distribution)

I've actually been writing an essay about the guild as a social contract. >_> Stop stealing my ideas! :)

Hold up now, this is a bunch of people getting together to play a game you're talking about. What exactly are you trying to prove with your essay?

I stopped feeling that essays have to "prove" something a long time ago, so it's more of an analysis of the state-like qualities of the guild, as well as how the social contract holds with respect to it. Besides, why is a bunch of people getting together to play a game unworthy of a more in-depth analysis than "we're just here to play a game?"

That being said, it's all just for fun and not for a class or mass distribution or anything. It's more a case of getting my conclusions down on paper (as well as working out a few aspects that still baffle me about the whole thing, some aspects of guilds that I haven't been able to satisfactorily relate to the social contract--haven't you ever noticed that a problem seems to solve itself more easily when you start tackling smaller problems that are near it than if you just throw yourself at it?) than a case of convincing anyone else to believe them.

Just an intellectual version of bouncing a ball on a tennis racket, nothing more. :)

EDIT: Ohgod misspelling! ;_;

#53 Felippe

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Posted 01 December 2006 - 07:24 PM

I stopped feeling that essays have to "prove" something a long time ago, so it's more of an analysis of the state-like qualities of the guild, as well as how the social contract holds with respect to it. Besides, why is a bunch of people getting together to play a game unworthy of a more in-depth analysis than "we're just here to play a game?"

That being said, it's all just for fun and not for a class or mass distribution or anything. It's more a case of getting my conclusions down on paper (as well as working out a few aspects that still baffle me about the whole thing, some aspects of guilds that I haven't been able to satisfactorily relate to the social contract--haven't you ever noticed that a problem seems to solve itself more easily when you start tackling smaller problems that are near it than if you just throw yourself at it?) than a case of convincing anyone else to believe them.

Just an intellectual version of bouncing a ball on a tennis racket, nothing more. :)

EDIT: Ohgod misspelling! ;_;

Let me put it this way, what you're describing would fall squarely into the humanities. For a wholesome project you analyze an historical problem (social contracts) because of its pertinence to a contemporary problem. With this method in mind, that would mean you see the current structure of guilds in World of Warcraft as a problem.

So let me rephrase, do you see this as a problem? Otherwise, your project just seems to boil down to simple mental exercises.

edit: which you seem to agree that's what your doing. I personally think that's somewhat of a waste of time, but to each his own.

#54 Proeliata

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Posted 01 December 2006 - 07:48 PM

Let me put it this way, what you're describing would fall squarely into the humanities. For a wholesome project you analyze an historical problem (social contracts) because of its pertinence to a contemporary problem. With this method in mind, that would mean you see the current structure of guilds in World of Warcraft as a problem.

Are social contracts a problem? I had thought of them just as a political science theory, no more problematic than the Pythagorean theorem (although less easily provable). I don't see the current structure of guilds in WoW as a problem, I'm merely interested in the ways in which they can be likened to sovereign states in the real world, in which ways the similarities don't hold, and what the differences are in the "tensile strength," if you will, of the social contract in a game, which doesn't really matter, compared to the real world, where it does.

So let me rephrase, do you see this as a problem? Otherwise, your project just seems to boil down to simple mental exercises.

edit: which you seem to agree that's what your doing. I personally think that's somewhat of a waste of time, but to each his own.

I enjoy writing, and a mind, like any other muscle, must be excercised. Besides, half of my college education was mental excercises of various difficulty (hay there math!), and I think they were incredibly useful.

#55 Zyla

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Posted 01 December 2006 - 10:55 PM

this thread took a dramatic turn. :teachdance:

Zyla, International Man of a Certain Standard.

That's right, I met my future wife through Zyla. :shudder:


#56 Proeliata

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Posted 01 December 2006 - 10:57 PM

And a pretty dumb one at that. Sorry. :(

#57 Elendril

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Posted 01 December 2006 - 11:02 PM

Does it really make you that mad that I missed a space? Seems like your loosing your mind over a typo. :(

i'm torn as to whether to think the underlined section was intentional...

#58 Elerion

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Posted 01 December 2006 - 11:23 PM

I assume you replied to Goggles and my discussion about ER (eu) horde group.. Why do you assume that those there sucks? It was people from other raid groups on the server that at the moment didn't do Naxxramas but certain players in those groups wanted to try it. So we all had good raid experience and adequate equipment. Not like we stood around in Orgrimmar "/2 LF29M Naxx! must be 60! whisp me plz!!!".

Goggles was the one that said Razuvious was a mighty accomplishment given the nature of the group. I was simply pointing out that it's probably the most forgiving PuG encounter past halfway in AQ. Whether your problem is gear, some mediocre players, low turnout, low raidtime or whatever else might be a challenge for a PuG - Razuvious doesn't really challenge any of those things. It's a quick clear, only dependant on a few people, very low gear dependancy, and doable with a small raid force. As long as you have two competent priests and four mildly competent tanks, the rest of the encounter could be done pretty much regardless of raid makeup, gear and player ability.

I'm far more impressed by Emps, Ouro and even Huhuran than the kill of Raz. All those bosses have mechanics that are less forgiving towards PuG/alt style raids.

#59 Evert

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Posted 01 December 2006 - 11:49 PM

I'd like to see that essay Pro, I have been trying to explain to people how excatly i can have obligations to a video game, and some new vocabulary added to my argument would be handy
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#60 Proeliata

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Posted 02 December 2006 - 12:09 AM

I'd like to see that essay Pro, I have been trying to explain to people how excatly i can have obligations to a video game, and some new vocabulary added to my argument would be handy

I'll PM it to you if/when I finish it. :)




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