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Team Robot Simulator and Gear Comparison Tool


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#1 Yellowsix

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 09:12 PM

The Team Robot Simulator and Gear Comparison Tool shaman section is now live!

Both elemental and enhancement shamans are supported.

What is it?
The Team Robot site combines two theorycrafting tools that many of you may already be familiar with: a simulator, and a gear ranking tool. Simulators attempt to simulate the actual game, and then use statistics to draw conclusions. Gear ranking tools use these conclusions, or conclusions that have been worked out manually, to rank gear by how much it will increase your DPS.

By combining a simulator and a gear comparer into one tool, you get the best of both worlds: easy gear rankings backed up by a simulator. Some items are very difficult to estimate, such as certain trinkets. If an estimate looks off, all you have to do with the Team Robot tool is press the Simulate button -- no back-and-forth with the developers, no relying on some guy's estimate of how the proc should be averaged out: a powerful and accurate tool for answering hard questions is always just one click away.

Features
  • Completely web-based: no downloading, installing, or updating! (Requires Microsoft Silverlight. Tested and works with IE, FF, Chrome on Windows, and FF, Safari on Mac.)
  • Load your characters from the armory
  • Easy, visual interface for customizing talents, gear, gems, enchants, glyphs, and buffs
  • Powerful rotation editor that allows you to create your own priority-based DPS rotations
  • Save versions of your entire character, sets of gear, talent specs, and rotations
  • Easily share any of your saved data with a simple yet effective import/export feature
  • Detailed, visual simulation summary and searchable combat log
  • Ranks gear, gems, and enchants using a DPS estimation technique that extrapolates the value of items from millions of cached simulation runs.

Details for Elemental
The default rotation used in the simulator is a simple priority list. We are aware that there is discussion around more complicated rotations, but we did not find them to perform significantly better than the most basic rotation. Depending on how much haste you have and if the fight is really short, using chain lightning will usually give a DPS boost, but it is very small (1-2%).

Searing totem is a pretty huge boost for elemental, but the default rotation does not use it, assuming that you have to keep a totem of wrath down. A pre-defined rotation that uses searing totem has been provided: in the ROTATION section at the top-right of the UI, click on CUSTM. then in the COPY FROM drop-down list, choose "Elemental w/ Searing Totem", then click the COPY button. (Edit: the pre-defined rotation with searing totem is not on the live site yet, I'm having a little difficulty connecting to my host's ftp server. You can add searing totem to the rotation manually for now: note that the simulator treats it like a DoT, and that you should add a condition to only re-cast the totem if the target does not have the searing totem "DoT".)

Details for Enhancement
By default, it uses windfury MH, flametongue OH. If you would like to change this, in the ROTATION section click on CUSTM, which will give you a copy of the default rotation. You will then see two drop-down lists for the MH and OH shaman enchants.


We hope that you find the site useful. We welcome any feedback, positive or negative. You can post here, or on our own forum if you need technical support.

#2 Ikefury

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 11:55 PM

The Team Robot Simulator and Gear Comparison Tool shaman section is now live!

Currently only elemental shamans are supported.

What is it?
The Team Robot site combines two theorycrafting tools that many of you may already be familiar with: a simulator, and a gear ranking tool. Simulators attempt to simulate the actual game, and then use statistics to draw conclusions. Gear ranking tools use these conclusions, or conclusions that have been worked out manually, to rank gear by how much it will increase your DPS.

By combining a simulator and a gear comparer into one tool, you get the best of both worlds: easy gear rankings backed up by a simulator. Some items are very difficult to estimate, such as certain trinkets. If an estimate looks off, all you have to do with the Team Robot tool is press the Simulate button -- no back-and-forth with the developers, no relying on some guy's estimate of how the proc should be averaged out: a powerful and accurate tool for answering hard questions is always just one click away.

Features

  • Completely web-based: no downloading, installing, or updating! (Requires Microsoft Silverlight. Tested and works with IE, FF, Chrome on Windows, and FF, Safari on Mac.)
  • Load your characters from the armory
  • Easy, visual interface for customizing talents, gear, gems, enchants, glyphs, and buffs
  • Powerful rotation editor that allows you to create your own priority-based DPS rotations
  • Save versions of your entire character, sets of gear, talent specs, and rotations
  • Easily share any of your saved data with a simple yet effective import/export feature
  • Detailed, visual simulation summary and searchable combat log
  • Ranks gear, gems, and enchants using a DPS estimation technique that extrapolates the value of items from millions of cached simulation runs.

Details for Elemental
The default rotation used in the simulator is a simple priority list. We are aware that there is discussion around more complicated rotations, but we did not find them to perform significantly better than the most basic rotation. Depending on how much haste you have and if the fight is really short, using chain lightning will usually give a DPS boost, but it is very small (1-2%).

Searing totem is a pretty huge boost for elemental, but the default rotation does not use it, assuming that you have to keep a totem of wrath down. A pre-defined rotation that uses searing totem has been provided: in the ROTATION section at the top-right of the UI, click on CUSTM. then in the COPY FROM drop-down list, choose "Elemental w/ Searing Totem", then click the COPY button. (Edit: the pre-defined rotation with searing totem is not on the live site yet, I'm having a little difficulty connecting to my host's ftp server. You can add searing totem to the rotation manually for now: note that the simulator treats it like a DoT, and that you should add a condition to only re-cast the totem if the target does not have the searing totem "DoT".)

Details for Enhancement
The enhancment shaman section is still in development.


We hope that you find the site useful. We welcome any feedback, positive or negative. You can post here, or on our own forum if you need technical support.




I keep on getting a 'website is not available' when i try going there.

#3 Yellowsix

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 02:09 AM

Yes -- just after I posted this, I started having trouble with my web site host. I'm working with them to get the site back up as soon as possible.

#4 Ikefury

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 02:26 AM

Seems to be a couple issues with the simulator, especially with how it handles the 10% damage boost with clearcasting, as well as several trinkets.

#5 Yellowsix

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 02:38 AM

The website should be up and running again.

Ikefury, could you provide more detail? What in particular is wrong with the 10% damage boost from clearcasting? I'll investigate, but some guidance to point me in the right direction would be appreciated.

Which trinkets are not working correctly? Are they not being simulated correctly, or are the estimates just off? If the estimates look incorrect, simply hit the Simulate button to get a more accurate result. If a trinket is not triggering correctly, please give me details and I will test and update the trinket(s) in question.

edit: I looked at the elemental oath damage bonus while clearcasting is active, and I noticed one possible bug: the spell that removes the clearcasting buff may not be receiving the 10% damage bonus. I'll work on fixing that.

There are a couple of situations that I do not know the answer though: if Flame Shock is cast while the elemental oath buff is up, does it get the 10% bonus for the entire duration? Right now, I calculate DoT damage when the spell is cast, and not on each DoT tick. This is how most classes that we have simulated thus far have worked, though there are exceptions.

Also, does searing totem receive damage percent buffs such as the elemental oath buff and ferocious inspiration? Or does it only gain the effects of debuffs like curse of elements? I'm going to assume for now that it only benefits from debuffs on the target, and of course any totem-specific talents, and the proper spell power scaling.

#6 Ikefury

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 03:49 AM

Well, for instance, each time I sim it, it says i'm only casting 3 Flame Shocks, yet I get 99 ticks of the FS dot. That's roughly double the amount of ticks I normally get per FS cast.

Another thing is that the average damage for spells seems very low. For instance, it repeatedly sims lvb with an average damage per spell about 1000 lower then I end up with on live (my average crit lvb was just a hair under 14k on heroic festergut attempts last night, but the sim, after me even putting on better gear then I actually have, gives me an avg lvb crit of 12.8k).


For a while, rawr had a similar problem where when it did its average damage calculation, it did it ignoring the 10% spell damage buff ele shamans get when they have clearcasting and elemental oath procced at the same itme. Perhaps its the same thing here.

#7 Yellowsix

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 08:26 PM

I posted an update that addresses a few bugs.

- 4T10 was indeed extending Flame Shock too far. That has been fixed.
- I was adding the buff from Shamanism as a multiplier rather than additive bonus. I have fixed that, and thus you should see a noticeable increase in damage.
- Elemental Oath is working correctly. I fixed the previously-mentioned bug where the spell that consumes the last charge of Clearcasting would sometimes not receive the Elemental Oath bonus.
- I also made sure that if Elemental Oath is active when Flame Shock is cast, the DoT portion receives the 10% damage buff as well.


We try our best to get each class working on the first try... but there's always a few bugs to work out. Thanks for taking the time to use it, and please let us know if you find any other problems.

#8 drakonslair

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 04:10 PM

Is there anyway to add a fire elemental into the rotation? The glyph for it seems to be included but cant see anyway off adding the elemental

#9 Yellowsix

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 06:46 PM

I haven't implemented the fire elemental yet -- it should be available soon though. When it is, I'll provide a pre-defined rotation that includes the fire elemental.

#10 Filthie

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 07:03 PM

Details for Enhancement
The enhancment shaman section is still in development.


Any eta or plans when / if this is gonna happen?

#11 revulva

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 07:20 PM

It will happen, we already have all of the data compiled. The ETA will depend a lot on yellow's work schedule. It will probably be available in a week or two.

#12 Levva

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 04:32 PM

You are aware that Rawr 3 will launch shortly (its out of closed beta now) as a fully web based tool using Silverlight just as you are? I'm not at all sure that the community needs another built from scratch tool. Especially when Rawr is so open and easy to use. Could you not have considered joining the Rawr team and adding your obvious programming expertise to that project? Or was this more of a desire to have your own project that you control?

As the Rawr.Enhance developer I know how many hours I've spent getting it working, so I don't envy you re-writing the code from scratch. I trust a re-write from scratch is what you are planning on doing and have no plans to plagiarise the code I've spend literally thousands of hours of programming time on?
Author of ShockAndAwe Enhancement Shaman max dps addon
Please use the EnhSim by Ziff & others to simulate what gear, priorities etc are the best dps. You can use ShockAndAwe to export your paperdoll stats to EnhSim.

#13 revulva

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 05:07 PM

We are aware of the rawr project. The Team Robot project has some overlap with Rawr as far as the gear comparison functionality, but at the roots, these are two fundamentally different applications. Rawr is not a simulator. We have our general simulator fully functional at this point. Now we are creating class modules that hook into our WoW simulator.

I think the community will benefit greatly from having multiple independent projects of high quality to check and balance one another.

We are professionals who have taken on this project because we wanted to bring a new face to the theorycraft community. So far, we have had very constructive conversations with the druid and DK community. Some game mechanics came to light, especially in the druid discussions, that have improved both our own project and the SimC and WrathCalcs projects.

Please do not insinuate that we would stoop to plagiarism before you have engaged in any discussion with us. We did not join the Rawr team because we wanted to make a simulator. SimC is a great project, but we wanted to create a web interface. People will use whichever project they prefer to use. It is not for us to say when another project should or should not be added to the community.

#14 Levva

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 05:29 PM

Might I take a somewhat more consolatory approach as I wasn't intending to suggest you'd rip off others just that with a massive overhaul of the entire game mechanics that will be in beta within the next 2-3 months is it wise to be launching another project, that uses what will soon be obsolete mechanics, now?

As I am also a project author on EnhSim, I am aware of the huge amount of detailed testing undertaken by the community to get that sim giving really reliable and accurate results. It strikes me that in the short time before Cataclysm goes into beta it would be wise to build on that work rather than try to emulate it. To that end we have been working on an API model that would allow external applications to feed config data into EnhSim and get out various results. So you might consider that route.

I'm fully aware of course that Cataclysm is likely to be in beta for at least 4-6 months and so we aren't likely to see patch 4.0 (the preparation patch before the expansion launch) any time before late July and probably not until Aug/Sep time frame. However given the scale of the project, trying to ensure that you fully model every last tweak in the game and the utter condemnation heaped upon us poor programmers of a free program should we dare have a bug in our programs that gives the wrong dps figure, I would very much recommend that you look to use as a temporary stop-gap the API route.

Within a month or two we are going to be inundated with new information on Cataclysm and the whole communities focus will switch from "how good am I in ICC25 heroic" to "how will my character work in Cataclysm". Your project has a wonderful opportunity to become THE project of choice for Cataclysm theorycrafting IF you don't lock yourselves too much into developing for what is soon to be an obsolete setup.

I can say now that EnhSim will almost certainly die in its current form and need a massive re-write. It would therefore make sense for the Enhancement Community to support your project if you were willing to commit to being as close to 100% accurate model for Enhancement Shamans in Cataclysm as is possible.

I just can't see us getting on board a new simulator when we have a tried and tested one that works exceptionally well for current mechanics. You are just fighting an uphill battle to get people to even try the program let alone rely on its results. Whereas if you focused on Cataclysm you would be streets ahead before any of the other projects got morphed into a Cataclysm model.
Author of ShockAndAwe Enhancement Shaman max dps addon
Please use the EnhSim by Ziff & others to simulate what gear, priorities etc are the best dps. You can use ShockAndAwe to export your paperdoll stats to EnhSim.

#15 Yellowsix

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 08:17 PM

Levva makes several very good points.

You are right that our timing is not that great -- we're on the tail end of WotLK here. As you suggest, our ultimate goal is to have a solid theorycraft tool available for every class in Cataclysm.

Particularly with the enhancement section, we don't expect a whole lot of people to switch to Mr. Robot from Rawr or EnhSim at this time. I'm finishing it more for completeness than anything -- our immediate goal is that any WoW player can use our website. That said, I do of course plan to make it as accurate as possible, and will take time to compare its results to EnhSim. It will not be an emulation of EnhSim; as already stated, Mr. Robot is an independently developed, generic WoW simulator.

The Team Robot site is built from the ground up with Cataclysm in mind. The amount of effort required to convert the current app to Cataclysm game mechanics will be low... the major effort will of course be doing the research to determine the mechanics. As soon as there is enough information available to create a working Cataclysm simulator, I will branch a separate version of the website.

We would be very excited if people wanted to use Mr. Robot as a platform for cataclysm theorycrafting. We think that we can hit the ground running, and have a very accessible user interface. We also know that people like the current tools too. SimulationCraft is a great simulator that has more features than the Mr. Robot simulator. Rawr is a great gear comparison tool that has more features than the Mr. Robot gear comparisons. But Mr. Robot brings the two together into one tool, which is very powerful and makes him unique.

The value of having a simulator built into a gear comparison tool can't be stated enough: it gives the users a way to verify the gear rankings and resolve any "weird" numbers for those tough-to-estimate items without needing a developer to do it for them. And from a programmer's perspective, basing gear comparisons directly on the results of simulations allows our gear rankings to be almost completely automated, saving massive amounts of time. This allows us to be more responsive to the end users.

Eventually we plan to add the 3rd piece: an in-game mod that uses the Mr. Robot gear estimates. The entire story will be complete: from simulation to gear estimates to in-game gear estimates, all available via one, easy-to-use tool.

Add in the last piece: we are working on creating a set of cross-referenced html pages that expose all of the formulas and theory used in our simulator. Not only will they be a great resource for any theorycrafter searching the web, they will give a very easy-to-read approach for people to verify the formulas and assumptions used by Mr. Robot.

Those last two pieces are a little ways out though. The overall point is that we don't just plan to be the first simulator that happens to work for Cataclysm, we plan to bring something new to the theorycrafting community.

#16 dedmonwakeen

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Posted 25 February 2010 - 05:02 AM

And most importantly, you are having fun creating something you find beautiful.

As one having led software projects both in the work-place and with volunteers I have come to the conclusion that the most important character trait is initiative, not technical ability, not plays-well-with-others, etc. In SimC we have no assignments, no strict lines of responsibility. I tell people new to the project the same thing every time: Pick something fun, something you are excited about. This doesn't always line up well with SimC's "needs" but whatever gets done is guaranteed to be quality work.

TC is the game-within-the-game, but it is still a game. Yes, if we all worked on the same project, the WoW community might be better off. But if we are truly honest, we would also admit that serving the needs of the WoW community is the by-product of our efforts and not the goal.

It will be a sad day when Rawr/SimC/MrRobot become the McDonalds/BurgerKing/Wendys that marginalize similar efforts of smaller scale. As far as I am concerned: he more the merrier . Let's hope that new efforts continuously emerge, so that the creative juices keep simmering.

#17 Shareel

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Posted 25 February 2010 - 07:57 AM

I think it will be better if you include the socket bonus in the calculation to choose the best default gem in the item comparison view.

Currently, the tool use 2 x in and to compare the items. Both result as an identical upgrade, but will be better if the tool use 2 x and activate the 7SP socket bonus.

#18 Yellowsix

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Posted 25 February 2010 - 08:52 AM

Yes Shareel, the current gem defaults are hard-coded to just use spell power gems for elemental, not exactly ideal in all situations. We're aware that this isn't the best behavior, and are working on some gem optimization features. We'll try to get it into one of the upcoming updates sooner rather than later.

#19 Zamir

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Posted 25 February 2010 - 01:27 PM

It will be a sad day when Rawr/SimC/MrRobot become the McDonalds/BurgerKing/Wendys that marginalize similar efforts of smaller scale. As far as I am concerned: he more the merrier . Let's hope that new efforts continuously emerge, so that the creative juices keep simmering.


Hear, hear. More tools can only be a good thing, as it provides the possibility for greater innovation and mutual comparison/correction as well as giving users choice. So I don't really believe the WoW community would be better off if everyone worked on the same TC tool, though collaboration between different projects should of course be encouraged.

On this note, I strongly support the idea to create an HTML library of the simulator's formulae and methods. I know this information is available to anyone who can read the SimC/Rawr/etc source code, but making it more accessible is a very worthy goal indeed and can only help the development of new tools.
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#20 revulva

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Posted 25 February 2010 - 07:36 PM

Hear, hear. More tools can only be a good thing, as it provides the possibility for greater
On this note, I strongly support the idea to create an HTML library of the simulator's formulae and methods. I know this information is available to anyone who can read the SimC/Rawr/etc source code, but making it more accessible is a very worthy goal indeed and can only help the development of new tools.


This is definitely one of our major goals, once the site is working for every class.

We would then like to take another pass at our rotation editor interface, to make it easier to use for someone who does not think like a programmer. Armed with easily accessible game mechanics and an intuitive interface to build rotations - backed by a simulator to test it all out... hopefully we can spark even more creativity.




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