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Team Robot Simulator and Gear Comparison Tool


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#21 Levva

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Posted 25 February 2010 - 10:55 PM

This is definitely one of our major goals, once the site is working for every class.

We would then like to take another pass at our rotation editor interface, to make it easier to use for someone who does not think like a programmer. Armed with easily accessible game mechanics and an intuitive interface to build rotations - backed by a simulator to test it all out... hopefully we can spark even more creativity.


How do you plan to deal with classes that don't have a rotation eg: Enhancement Shaman.
Author of ShockAndAwe Enhancement Shaman max dps addon
Please use the EnhSim by Ziff & others to simulate what gear, priorities etc are the best dps. You can use ShockAndAwe to export your paperdoll stats to EnhSim.

#22 revulva

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Posted 26 February 2010 - 12:38 AM

I wasn't using very precise terminology. We model every class as a priority queue.

In a few days you'll be able to play around with the enhancement module to see how it works, if you want.

#23 Levva

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Posted 26 February 2010 - 10:35 AM

I wasn't using very precise terminology. We model every class as a priority queue.

In a few days you'll be able to play around with the enhancement module to see how it works, if you want.


Ah excellent. I've long since thought that the best simulators would use a priority queue for all classes. I'd be happy to try out the Enh model when its ready and give feedback.
Author of ShockAndAwe Enhancement Shaman max dps addon
Please use the EnhSim by Ziff & others to simulate what gear, priorities etc are the best dps. You can use ShockAndAwe to export your paperdoll stats to EnhSim.

#24 Kissmyaxe

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Posted 26 February 2010 - 10:58 AM

Unless I'm missing something, the is way off (both versions of it).
The heroic vesrsion is ranked even lower than .

#25 revulva

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Posted 26 February 2010 - 01:30 PM

Unless I'm missing something, the is way off (both versions of it).
The heroic vesrsion is ranked even lower than .


You are correct that the estimates for that item seem to be off. But, if you actually equip it and run a simulation, you will see a DPS numbers that appear to be what you would expect.

Remember, with this site, the estimates are exactly that: estimates. Items with special procs can be difficult to estimate accurately, so, if you know an item to be off - run a simulation with it equipped. The DPS result will still be accurate.

We are definitely still in the process of trying to improve the estimates for the caster trinkets.

#26 asatar

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Posted 26 February 2010 - 01:39 PM

Currently not working for me on Safari Mac OSX 10.5. Microsoft Silverlight is installed, just getting a grey screen.

#27 Yellowsix

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Posted 26 February 2010 - 06:16 PM

I just tried it on Safari Mac OSX 10.5, and it's working for me. If you would like to further investigate why it is not running on your machine, feel free to start a thread in the technical support forum: Technical Support.

I would suggest starting with the usual suspects: restart the browser, restart the computer, etc.

#28 pfg

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 01:18 PM

It may just be me but the caster leg enchants seem to be missing ?

#29 Yellowsix

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 07:21 PM

oops -- yeah it looks like I have it loading the wrong enchant list for casters. I'll post a fix for that sometime today.

#30 Yellowsix

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Posted 27 February 2010 - 11:28 PM

The enhancement shaman section is now available!

A few other changes were made as well, view the change log for the full list: WoW Simulator Change Log

edit:
The default rotation for enhancement may have a slightly different priority order than some of the posts that I've seen floating around. Let me know if you see anything that is glaringly wrong -- from my initial tests, the default seemed reasonable. If you have a minor variation that you prefer to the default, simply create your own custom rotation and save it. Creating and saving a custom rotation is easy:

1. In the ROTATION section at the top-right of the page, press CUSTM.
2. Now you have a copy of the default rotation. Make the changes that you want (drag-and-drop to reorder, add actions, change conditions, etc.).
3. At the top of the priority list, enter an Icon and a Name for your new rotation.
4. Press the SAVE... button on the middle toolbar.
5. In the save dialog, press the CREATE button. Done! Now you can use the LOAD... menu to load your rotation any time you like.

Alternatively, when the SAVE... dialog is shown, you can choose YOUR ENTIRE CHARACTER, and save your entire character, which will also use your custom rotation any time you load that saved character.

#31 Lumb

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Posted 28 February 2010 - 03:06 AM

Haven't really played around with this tool much yet, though it looks amazing visually! I couldn't find a way to insert magma totem into the priority list, do you have plans to add that in? It is the totem of choice for enhancement shamans currently.

#32 zeroavix

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Posted 28 February 2010 - 07:30 AM

Haven't really played around with this tool much yet, though it looks amazing visually! I couldn't find a way to insert magma totem into the priority list, do you have plans to add that in? It is the totem of choice for enhancement shamans currently.


In the spot where they have searing totem, just change the ability to magma totem and change the requirements to only use if they don't have magma totem on the enemy already.

I played around with the rotation a bit to mimic what I use in enhsim currently, and it's putting my dps from 1000 runs of a 7 minute (420 secs) fight at around 10,164.4 dps (+/- 46.5). Enhsim currently puts my dps with the same rotation at 10,462.84.

One of the things that impressed me about it is the modeling for and are very close to what I see in game on Saurfang and Festergut. Overall, its very nice simulator, and with a few minor tuning and tweaks of the enhance module I could see this being very close to Enhsim's accuracy.

#33 Yellowsix

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 07:42 PM

I've posted an update with some tweaks and bug fixes. The full list of changes is at: WoW Simulator Change Log.

I usually follow the release of a class with a round of bug fixes and tweaks that pop up in the first couple of days. I ran some comparisons of the Team Robot simulator to EnhSim, and also compared that to some combat logs. I noticed a few things:

- Our default rotation uses Searing Totem, because our tests show it doing equal or slightly more DPS than Magma Totem. (The totem itself does a bit less damage, but it frees up extra time to use other abilities because you have to cast it less often). EnhSim (I was using version 1.9.7.1) doesn't seem to model Searing Totem very well. It always clips out 1 minute of up-time (one cast) that it should not. For instance, in a 5-minute fight using Fire Elemental, you should see nearly 60% up-time for Searing Totem, but EnhSim shows 40%. For a 7-minute fight, it shows around 57% up-time when it should show 71%, and so on. If I just manually correct for this bug (by multiplying the DPS done by searing totem appropriately), EnhSim also shows Searing Totem to do slightly more DPS than Magma Totem.

- I noticed in some of the threads that people rate very highly for enhancement. I must not have some of my information correct, because my simulations are not showing it doing very good DPS at all. For the normal version, my simulations show it charging up and attacking roughly every 8-10 seconds (charges build off of any melee attack [auto, stormstrike, lava lash, etc.] with a 45% proc rate) or about 33 procs in a 5-minute fight. It uses a 50% chance to hit with MH or OH, and I'm using normalized weapon damage. I'm also assuming that it cannot trigger windfury or flametongue, or any other proc for that matter.

With those assumptions... it's not a very good trinket. Are some of those assumptions incorrect?

#34 pintor

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 08:02 PM

...EnhSim searing totem uptime...


I have opened a ticket on EnhSim for this issue: EnhSim - View Issue #6110: Searing totem uptime thanks for the report!

As for TaiJ, the normal version of the trinket is generally accepted as underwhelming due to the low hit rating budget, and the proc not being amazing. However, the heroic version is quite nice because of two reasons. One, the proc in the heroic version actually does become quite nice after only needing 7 motes instead of 8. Second, and more important, the hit rating in heroic gear becomes more important because of the melee crit cap, and it opens up a lot more gearing options.

#35 Rouncer

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 08:34 PM

I've posted an update with some tweaks and bug fixes. The full list of changes is at: WoW Simulator Change Log.

I usually follow the release of a class with a round of bug fixes and tweaks that pop up in the first couple of days. I ran some comparisons of the Team Robot simulator to EnhSim, and also compared that to some combat logs. I noticed a few things:

- Our default rotation uses Searing Totem, because our tests show it doing equal or slightly more DPS than Magma Totem. (The totem itself does a bit less damage, but it frees up extra time to use other abilities because you have to cast it less often). EnhSim (I was using version 1.9.7.1) doesn't seem to model Searing Totem very well. It always clips out 1 minute of up-time (one cast) that it should not. For instance, in a 5-minute fight using Fire Elemental, you should see nearly 60% up-time for Searing Totem, but EnhSim shows 40%. For a 7-minute fight, it shows around 57% up-time when it should show 71%, and so on. If I just manually correct for this bug (by multiplying the DPS done by searing totem appropriately), EnhSim also shows Searing Totem to do slightly more DPS than Magma Totem.

- I noticed in some of the threads that people rate very highly for enhancement. I must not have some of my information correct, because my simulations are not showing it doing very good DPS at all. For the normal version, my simulations show it charging up and attacking roughly every 8-10 seconds (charges build off of any melee attack [auto, stormstrike, lava lash, etc.] with a 45% proc rate) or about 33 procs in a 5-minute fight. It uses a 50% chance to hit with MH or OH, and I'm using normalized weapon damage. I'm also assuming that it cannot trigger windfury or flametongue, or any other proc for that matter.

With those assumptions... it's not a very good trinket. Are some of those assumptions incorrect?


Searing Totem doesn't work well so if you are modeling your simulator off the tooltip then your simulator is wrong.

Searing Totem - Thottbot: World of Warcraft

Then the actual damage comes from Attack - Thottbot: World of Warcraft which shows the 2.2 second cast time. Problem is that when testing it in game it only actually causes damage roughly every 2.5 seconds if my memory serves. We tested it in-game before including it in EnhSim which is why EnhSim models it correctly.


Edit - As for Tiny Abom it can proc Flametongue and Windfury and Maelstrom Weapon and Lightning Shields from Static Shock etc. Regular version is still not great but heroic version is our BiS for a reason.

#36 kasouti

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 08:42 PM

Searing Totem doesn't work well so if you are modeling your simulator off the tooltip then your simulator is wrong.

Searing Totem - Thottbot: World of Warcraft

Then the actual damage comes from Attack - Thottbot: World of Warcraft which shows the 2.2 second cast time. Problem is that when testing it in game it only actually causes damage roughly every 2.5 seconds if my memory serves. We tested it in-game before including it in EnhSim which is why EnhSim models it correctly.

The simulator actually seems to have it casting every 2 seconds anyways. So regardless it is simulating the searing totem incorrectly.

#37 Yellowsix

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 08:54 PM

Rouncer:

Clipping 1 minute off of the up-time for searing totem is an inaccurate implementation no matter how you slice it. I highly doubt that the EnhSim people did it on purpose -- the fact that it's always 1 minute no matter the fight length... and the duration of the ability itself is 1 minute... it is highly probable that it is a minor flaw in the priority logic.

If searing totem is actually casting every 2.2 or 2.5 seconds, then it should simply be modeled with that cast time. I will do an in-game test to determine the actual cast time, it should be very simple to do.


A side note Rouncer: in another thread (http://elitistjerks....ted_thread/p14/) you are claiming that EnhSim's ArP calculation is incorrect. (you also posted here EnhSim - View Issue #6108: ArP debuffs).

It appears that the armor pen constant should indeed use the target's level, not the player's level, resulting in a constant of 16635. (I need to double check what constant I'm using in the Team Robot simulator, make sure it's correct). This is supported by: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> 116% Armor Pen only giving 66%!?!?!?!

You also claim that sunder and faerie fire stack additively. I cannot find any support for this. The wowwiki post claims it, but that is the only place that makes such a claim. I have found a couple posts to the contrary. Here is one example: ThinkTank: [Druid] The threat value of arpen.

We will stick with sunder/FF stacking multiplying until a definitive source can be provided that proves otherwise.

#38 Rouncer

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 09:08 PM

Where are you getting this one minute clipping effect? I'm looking at the actual outputs and they are on the money when compared to in-game performance and there is no clipping at all that I can see.

As for Armor Penetration, go read the code and then compare in-game performance to what the sim is outputting, that's I determined there was an issue and when I use my workaround the values for white damage on a fully debuffed constant target situation fall directly in line with what is seen from the sim's output.

As for the stacking multiplicatively or additively, that's a minor issue but I was going off the wiki article and if that is incorrect then that's just a little thing that won't need to be fixed.

#39 pintor

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 09:16 PM

Where are you getting this one minute clipping effect? I'm looking at the actual outputs and they are on the money when compared to in-game performance and there is no clipping at all that I can see.


In a 5 minute fight where we use the fire elemental, searing totem should be up for ~60% of the time (regardless of how many times it 'ticks'). The simulator is reporting a 40% uptime, which represents about 1 minute of time where it is not up. Unless the simulator is somehow modeling uptime by how much time is spent attacking, versus how much time the totem is down, there is no reason searing totem should be "missing" this other 20%. The same is true for any time frame you input into enhsim, and what I posted the issue on.

#40 Yellowsix

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 09:39 PM

I just did a quick test and can confirm that Searing Totem has a cast time of 2.5 seconds (Against a target dummy, I get exactly 24 attacks per cast of searing totem).

With that change, Magma Totem now does slightly more damage than Searing Totem. I've updated the Team Robot rotations to reflect this.

The point still stands that there is something not quite right with EnhSim's model of Searing Totem though, which is making the gap in DPS between the two totems seem larger than it really is.




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