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Burning Crusade - New Encounter Mechanics


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#21 Bury

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 06:11 AM

Out of all of the encounters I've done so far, I've found that Darkweaver Syth calls for a slightly different tactic than what groups are used to. This is the first time I've seen a fight that can get out of hand if your group does too much damage too quickly.

Gothik live side.

It's possible to brute-force zerg the encounter, still. Fear rotations and tank the shadow ones, for example. Bring T3 gear though :P

#22 Tecton

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 09:48 AM

How is warrior tanking in the expansion anyway? I see lots of doom and gloom from various posters and can see the arguments pretty easily about how they affect large mob quantities in instances.

I levelled a warrior purely to test the gearing in TBC (as in, he got to 60 in greens and blues and was transferred to the alpha server).

As such, he's now fully dressed in TBC gear. I've tanked everything, instance wise, up to Shattered Halls, etc, which we did at level 67. It's fully possible, aggro really isn't as much of a problem as people make out (feral druids were a bit of a nuisance for a while, but they got their threat generation in cat form fixed).

The biggest difference is, it's a lot harder to tank in an offspec than before, since the encounters are, naturally, tuned around having at least a prot-ish warrior, due to the buffs that tree received. Obviously, this will be mitigated somewhat by gearing in the tanks who've been sitting at 60 for some time.

I can easily see a raw lack of global cooldowns not being enough at about 4 mobs quite easily, but with 7 mobs it seems down right absurd. I can do 7 mobs on Noth easily enough but they come one at a time provided healers do not run out of mana and the adds do not synch attacks up, but 7 at once seems ... daunting to say the least.

I don't think you're intended to tank 7 of the mobs at one time. It's more of an exercise in crowd control, rather than just your normal dps one mob at a time down. As I said earlier, this was from when we did it at level 67, so it may be a touch simpler at 70, but warlock fear kiting, mage sheeping, frost novaing, rogue stunlocking casters, etc, is the order of the day.

The main reason I think that is one of the mobs in the big pulls has scatter shot, which makes tanking them a bit of an uphill struggle.

Anyway, I'm a druid, what the hell do I know about tanking.

#23 Greybone

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 10:04 AM

I can easily see a raw lack of global cooldowns not being enough at about 4 mobs quite easily, but with 7 mobs it seems down right absurd. I can do 7 mobs on Noth easily enough but they come one at a time provided healers do not run out of mana and the adds do not synch attacks up, but 7 at once seems ... daunting to say the least.

It's not that big a deal providing your dps actually focus fires, I'd say. I got my warrior alt at 63'ish and I've tanked hellfire citadel and coilfang so far. I specced full prot though, and I can certainly see how that makes things easier :)

A thunderclap and demo shout along with some cleaves and a sunder on a mob or two generally keeps everything stuck to you, healer aggro isn't that big a problem on most encounters.

#24 Glaurong

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 06:47 PM

I don't think you're intended to tank 7 of the mobs at one time. It's more of an exercise in crowd control, rather than just your normal dps one mob at a time down. As I said earlier, this was from when we did it at level 67, so it may be a touch simpler at 70, but warlock fear kiting, mage sheeping, frost novaing, rogue stunlocking casters, etc, is the order of the day.

The main reason I think that is one of the mobs in the big pulls has scatter shot, which makes tanking them a bit of an uphill struggle.

This is definitely the case, warlocks, mages, rogues and hunters all have their hands full in the upper tier of instances. The better your gear is the less CC you need but it makes life much simpler. (P.S. Hunters can drop traps in combat now so stop chasing stuff that runs to us. If we need it off we will feign or clip it, if we let it come to us it's because we have a trap down)

Far as Sharpshooters go, if you try to tank them you will get a scatter shot to the face and drop threat on everything for a few seconds. I started ranged tanking the sharpshooters and it saves a lot of headache. They will not scatter shot if you are outside their dead zone and they only hit me for about 400 or so ranged so its not a big deal. A warlock could accomplish the same thing with searing pain.

Anyway, I'm a druid, what the hell do I know about tanking.

I actually prefer druid tanks in the higher end instances, since they can hold threat on 3 thing with minimal effort, just goes up from there if they are skilled.

It's not that big a deal providing your dps actually focus fires, I'd say. I got my warrior alt at 63'ish and I've tanked hellfire citadel and coilfang so far. I specced full prot though, and I can certainly see how that makes things easier :)

A thunderclap and demo shout along with some cleaves and a sunder on a mob or two generally keeps everything stuck to you, healer aggro isn't that big a problem on most encounters.

There is a pretty big jump from what you are doing now at 63 and what you will see at 70. The pulls he is talking about are capable of taking a tank out with one round of attacks from all the mobs involved. An example would be the Champion pulls in Shattered Halls, 5 incoming mobs that all hit pretty hard and all mortal strike.
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#25 Incoherence

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 10:11 AM

Blackheart the Inciter amused the hell out of me, especially when I started Holy Firing people. The huge amount of trash before him? Not so much.

As for difficulty, it seems to start at roughly DM East level (Ramparts) and go up from there. I expect most of the 5 mans to be nerfed, honestly... Black Stalker in Underbog is going to confuse the living hell out of your average PUG, and that's the fourth instance.

#26 Mimirswell

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 11:02 AM

Edit: Apparently the Mods saved anyone the trouble of being spoiled.

#27 Falk

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 02:58 AM

If you want Gruul's lair to be a surprise, skip this post.

I am now doomed forever. :(

Regarding instance difficulty, by all reports I feel that the current TBC 5-man difficulties are pretty much working as intended. This is/was my first WoW character ever, and I levelled the old-fashion, unguilded way. I think I must have gone through 7 Gnomeregan runs before actually killing Thermaplugg, so horrid, horrid pugs are nothing new. Nonstandard mechanics to fights are actually pretty common - and the power of information repositories like WoWWiki will eventually cater to the casual crowd. (Can't believe I said that. Oh well)

The average lv60+ casual will be a lot more experienced than the average lv30 casual. I'd think that with all else being equal, encounters at that stage in the game should be slightly more difficult than the legacy 5-mans after gear levels, etc are all considered.

#28 Bubba

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 10:54 AM

I think the standard 5-mans will generally become pretty straightforward fare with even the most green of PUGs, because none of them have particularly complex mechanics, nor are they severely testing. In the Heroics, on the other hand, I just can't see Jimbob and his Rapier of the Monkey getting very far.

#29 Dinadass

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 06:49 PM

increase warlock(and priest shadow damage) damage by 20% and other magical damage by 5%, so say you have 3 mages and 2 warlocks in the raid then 55% of their direct damage (this is neglecting damage they can do from increased mana from VT) is basically the priest's damage. As long as the shadow priest could do 45% the damage of a normal DPS class then he is the better choice

Just to nitpick, I think it would be 11% of their overall direct damage that would be contributed by the priest (55 divided by 5 individuals), meaning the shadow priest would need 89% dps.
I still think shadow priests will be a phenomenal boon to a raid.

Wrong. If the shadow priest boosts each lock's damage by 20% (assuming two locks) then he's applying basically 40% of the dps of a single member, simply by keeping weaving and misery up. With three mages, he's doing an additional 15%, so that's 55%.

So, in a raid with two locks and three mages, simply by existing a shadow priest is adding half a dps slot's worth of dps, and he only has to make up the other 45% to be viable for raw numbers. Not to mention VE and VT regen.

Sorry, but you are also wrong. Adding 20% to someone's DPS makes you accountable for 16.7% of their DPS (20/120), not 20%. A shadow priest with 2 warlocks and 3 mages, assuming they do the same DPS, should get credit for 47.6% of the overall DPS, not 55%.

Also, you are assuming that both warlocks are using 100% shadow-based damage spells. While many warlocks do that currently at level 60, once we have access to Incinnerate, expect many raiding warlocks to spec destruction and do the vast majority of their DPS with fire spells.

One last thing- trying to argue a spot in a raid for x class because they add y to the other players is pointless. Warlocks get credit for 10% of all mage DPS then, plus some of the shadow prist DPS via Improved Shadow Bolt, druids/shammies get credit for the crit bonus they add, etc etc. I am by no means bashing Shadow Priests, but in the end, choosing who can spec what for raids should come down to what the player wants to do. Guilds beat encounters every day with less-than-optimal setups, stop worrying about min/maxing so much and play the game to have fun and get phat loot with friends.

#30 Elerion

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 07:37 PM

One last thing- trying to argue a spot in a raid for x class because they add y to the other players is pointless. Warlocks get credit for 10% of all mage DPS then, plus some of the shadow prist DPS via Improved Shadow Bolt, druids/shammies get credit for the crit bonus they add, etc etc.

What? That is the exact reason why even hardcore min/max-stacking guilds brought 1-3 warlocks in Naxx 1.12, since the increased damage from curses made up for their own mediore damage. Thinking along those lines is absolutely correct in a min/max scenario.

#31 Glaurong

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 07:53 PM

Really? There are encounters that require/force raid stacking? Stop the presses!

Both Blackheart the Inciter and Murmur hold a special place in my heart, and Shadow Labs in general is perhaps my favourite five-man in the game (excluding SM of course, which is naturally better than anything in the game pve or pvp, for it's level).

Did Shadow Labs a couple times the other day.

Blackheart was a lot of fun but unless there is a gimmick I'm missing its really luck based. There is a special place in hell for rogues that gleefully murder all the groups healers during the first charm. I guess I'll have a place right next to them though after the last run. I think I took out 3 people during one charm (Bestial Wrath, Rapid Fire, Multi-Shot etc.)
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#32 Acustar

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 08:23 PM

All I can say is I hope there's no more complete 'luck' based encounters like Razuvious. We have priests decked in 6+ hit and -resists etc and still have problems sometimes. It's not very fun to be able to one-shot all the other bosses (for us it's spiderwing, patch/grob and noth) and wipe 4-5 times one night because of a bad timed break followed by a shout. I think gimmick fights can be alot of fun (ala Hakkar, Razorgore) but sometimes the abilities involved are just annoying.

ps: I know the Raz encounter isn't entierly luck based but it can sure feel like it.

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#33 Harem

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 09:37 PM

All I can say is I hope there's no more complete 'luck' based encounters like Razuvious. We have priests decked in 6+ hit and -resists etc and still have problems sometimes. It's not very fun to be able to one-shot all the other bosses (for us it's spiderwing, patch/grob and noth) and wipe 4-5 times one night because of a bad timed break followed by a shout. I think gimmick fights can be alot of fun (ala Hakkar, Razorgore) but sometimes the abilities involved are just annoying.

ps: I know the Raz encounter isn't entierly luck based but it can sure feel like it.

Off topic, but why does Raz move when a MC breaks? He should aggro a rogue/fury warrior who will evasion (or die, sorry warriors), holding him in place...
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#34 kharen

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 02:07 AM

There is a special place in hell for rogues that gleefully murder all the groups healers during the first charm.

I assume it has the usual %damage boost when charmed? If so, i'm so totally respeccing combat when i get to that instance. Oneshotting people with blade flurry just never gets old (my all-time record hit is ~21k during a chromag when our curers were getting slack - i think i took out about half the raid before they killed me...).

#35 gunderbald

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 03:56 AM

[...] Off topic, but why does Raz move when a MC breaks? He should aggro a rogue/fury warrior who will evasion (or die, sorry warriors), holding him in place...

warriors can't drink a limited invulnerability potion and taunt him?

#36 Vykromond

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 04:45 AM

Blackheart was a lot of fun but unless there is a gimmick I'm missing its really luck based. There is a special place in hell for rogues that gleefully murder all the groups healers during the first charm. I guess I'll have a place right next to them though after the last run. I think I took out 3 people during one charm (Bestial Wrath, Rapid Fire, Multi-Shot etc.)

* Burn all cooldowns before first Incite Chaos

* Position all clothies cardinally opposite to each other to help ensure they don't shoot each other:

________________________________________________________
                                 Clothie                |
                                                        |
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                                                        |
Clothie                           RogueBlackheartWarrior|
                                                        |
                                                        |
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                                 Clothie                |
* Keep all players topped off at all times (healers, bandages, consumables if necessary)

#37 Kody

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 05:21 AM

What I'm hoping for future raid instances (25 mans) is that blizzard moves away from the conception that pretty much forces guilds to have 15x healers for nearly all encoutners (talking about 40 mans currently) and that offspecs are just not wanted. I'm hoping that blizzard will implement instances with wildly varying needs that it will make min/max'ing (people sitting outside the instance waiting to step in) so annoying that the offspecs get their chance and people can open their eyes.

Without spoiling anything, if Gruul's Lair is an indication, you won't be disappointed. It seemed to promote a balanced raid group(the first encounter anyway).

#38 Glaurong

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 05:35 AM

Blackheart was a lot of fun but unless there is a gimmick I'm missing its really luck based. There is a special place in hell for rogues that gleefully murder all the groups healers during the first charm. I guess I'll have a place right next to them though after the last run. I think I took out 3 people during one charm (Bestial Wrath, Rapid Fire, Multi-Shot etc.)

* Burn all cooldowns before first Incite Chaos

* Position all clothies cardinally opposite to each other to help ensure they don't shoot each other:

________________________________________________________
                                 Clothie                |
                                                        |
                                                        |
                                                        |
Clothie                           RogueBlackheartWarrior|
                                                        |
                                                        |
                                                        |
                                                        |
                                 Clothie                |
* Keep all players topped off at all times (healers, bandages, consumables if necessary)

Spreading out certainly helps but it by no means guarantees a clean kill. Between fears, the big knockback stomps, charms and aggro wipes I'm pretty sure it is meant to be controlled chaos, a different fight each time (which is nice).

I just started dropping an ice trap behind our ginsu master rogue before the charm and more often than not he would spend the charm sitting in an iceblock.

Without spoiling anything, if Gruul's Lair is an indication, you won't be disappointed. It seemed to promote a balanced raid group(the first encounter anyway).

I didn't notice it in the rules but is there an unofficial "don't spoil TBC raid encounters" rule in place before the expansion? I actually wanted to comment on some Gruul stuff but I will refrain if this is the case.
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#39 Drelegon

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 05:33 PM

So it looks like Blizzard has already dumbed down some of the encounters (Tavarok, maybe the damage on the trash/Hunter boss in Coilfang). I haven't run any of the instances since the L67 cap was lifted. It also looks like the new 5pc "L70 Tier 0" gear sets will do more to equalize the gear between the raiders and the general population.

As far as off-spec in a raid group, they always have a place. Raids don't require 5 healing priests, 5 healing paladins, 5 healing druids, etc. Raids require X number of people that can heal, X number that can demagic, X that can decurse, X melee DPS, X that can tank bosses/adds, X that can ranged DPS, etc. However you fill those roles is fine. We ran quite a bit with 2 druids in our raids, 1 tanking, 1 healing (our only improved MoTW), 9 priests, 5 shaman. For a while we had a shadow priest who filled a warlock/mage role. Its more about finding the best person you can that wants to fill a role and not what class they are. We are short on rogues but we have 3 great DPS warriors.

#40 Kody

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 05:49 PM

So it looks like Blizzard has already dumbed down some of the encounters (Tavarok, maybe the damage on the trash/Hunter boss in Coilfang). I haven't run any of the instances since the L67 cap was lifted. It also looks like the new 5pc "L70 Tier 0" gear sets will do more to equalize the gear between the raiders and the general population.

As far as off-spec in a raid group, they always have a place. Raids don't require 5 healing priests, 5 healing paladins, 5 healing druids, etc. Raids require X number of people that can heal, X number that can demagic, X that can decurse, X melee DPS, X that can tank bosses/adds, X that can ranged DPS, etc. However you fill those roles is fine. We ran quite a bit with 2 druids in our raids, 1 tanking, 1 healing (our only improved MoTW), 9 priests, 5 shaman. For a while we had a shadow priest who filled a warlock/mage role. Its more about finding the best person you can that wants to fill a role and not what class they are. We are short on rogues but we have 3 great DPS warriors.

Yeah, Tavarok has been "easy" for a while now. I suppose it depends on what you call easy, though. Doing it with my rogue which wouldn't have used any items from the zone at all it felt easy. I'd say Pandemonius is the real test of that dungeon, especially for pickups. If your group can get past him, you'll likely be able to clear the entire zone.




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