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Post-Patch Depression?


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#41 Nork

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 01:34 AM

If I was someone who actually did the GM/HWL grind right about now I'd be a little annoyed, the new system seems to be heavily devaluing their accomplishments.

I was thinking the same thing, but then a guildie who PvPs (I don't) pointed out a different view of it. The people who got GM/HWL got to be the elite few for quite a while. Now other people are getting the gear, but they didn't have it when it meant something significant. Now the gear is nice, but not amazing, considering the gear that will be available in a month or two once TBC is up and running.

As for guild issues in general, the guild I'm in is still clearing BWL and working halfheartedly on Naxx/AQ40. However, a lot of people are taking time off from raiding to enjoy PvP for a while. The result is that we'll end up with a few cancelled raids, but I think the guild will do fine.

On the other hand, I'm glad we keep raiding so we don't repeat the mistakes of other guilds on our server. One guild announced in October that they were 'cutting away the chaff' to prepare for a November TBC release. After the release was delayed, they tried to get their 40 man groups back together, but couldn't get a decent sized raid group. It seems telling almost 40% of your guild that you're abandoning them makes them less likely to want to raid with you...

#42 Praetorian

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 01:38 AM

People who did the GM/HWL grind stopped being special about 6 months ago when BWL cash runs came into vogue. When someone can buy an Ashkandi for 500g or something from a random guild, your HWL 2h doesn't look quite so special anymore.

To put things into perspective, the Rank12 armor is level 71. That's Majordomo loot. The Rank13 armor is level 74. That's Vael loot. The Rank14 weapons are level 79. That's a bit above Chromaggus/Huhuran.

The weapons are still nice, certainly, but it's misguided to imagine that the rest really is some great prize or has been at any point in recent times.

The HWL/GM player title is, oddly enough, the real lasting mark of distinction. A year or two from now there won't be so many of those, to say the least, and no one will remember this crappy gear.

#43 Xzin

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 02:44 AM

We as a guild are stuck on Gothik before 4h and sapph, KT. We will not kill goth before the expansion. After the expansion hits I am pretty sure our guild will continue to do 25 man content but just barely. Keep in mind that it will be late Feb, early March before people start to hit 70 (in large numbers). We have lost so many people to burnout, quitting, a pvp break, people deciding that redoing all their UI mods is too much work, people bailing to the one other horde guild who is actually doing naxx right now (who just recently caught up to us) and an overall lack of healers due to the same issues and poor recruiting practices plus a total ongoing lack of druids.

Not to mention the fact that there is no loot carrot dangling in front of us because of the expansion and some pretty damn good weapons to be had for not much work PLUS the exams and holiday break hitting all at once means that we went from sitting 10 - 15 people on Naxx free loot nights to not being able to muster 30 people online to raid. Also, we lost some of our best geared tanks - 7/9s Dread, etc - to the same issues.

With the current state of WoW endgame - this critical loss of even one segment of the holy trinity means that our guild, atm and for the foreseeable future is totally and completely fucked. Keep in mind that while this has been "on the horizon" for a while now, this actually happened in the span of about 2 weeks. I don't even log on much right now - I have RL things to do and since I am already rank 13 on 5 characters (I multibox) - I have no real desire to pvp more for a few weapons that I will wind up replacing soon enough as it is.

I just hope that everybody rears their head again for the expansion because from my perspective we are bleeding people right now. That or Blizzard just doesn't care about those of us who are high end raiders - after all we are not the largest market for their product and we consume content and require a lot of their time. So who knows. As it stands right now though, WoW is dying a quick death mainly because the gear is going to be replaced so quickly.

I would also like to extend a big screw you to Blizzard for making HWL/GM weapons so much easier to get. It went from taking literally 1,600 games of WSG (winning most of them) over 4 weeks - doing 12 hour days 5-6 days a week to something in the area of 40 games of AB? Those 1,600 games was what it took to go from Rank 13, Warlord, to Rank 14. That was one rank. Now it is two days of pvping? Not that the system is much more sane (it is) but having worked so damn hard to get R13...... then come expansion everybody suddenly pops up with R14 weps.... just doesn't seem right. On the one hand I do applaud the MUCH more reasonable period of time it is going to take to get R14 weps but seriously.... why the hell was it so damn hard to get them before?

#44 Malan

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 03:02 AM

Well after tonight's fiasco of trying to get a raid going, and probably tomorrow too, I've about officially reached my limit with my guild's unwillingness to do anything besides sit in org and "lol" at all the HWL gear they're getting while we have the talent and gear to down 2 more bosses in Naxx to at least say that we did it and saw most of the content we pay for every night.

#45 Stochastic

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 03:22 AM

I logged in today to hear that my raid group has disbanded until BC and there will be a post on the forums...

..still in shock.

#46 Thelyna

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 03:28 AM

We're still working through Naxx (Patch/Grob down last couple days), and enthusiasm is still there it seems, so we're still running everything.

Interestingly, though, we called a raid because people were off their game and battling UIs and etc, next thing there's two seperate AB groups going in-guild.

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#47 Gilgilad

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 03:37 AM

I was actually suprised to see all the negative reports from guilds. Our guild just had its highest raid attendance Saturday since the end of Summer with 68 members online and one of the best raids we have had in a while, thanks to the helpful new talent trees. Several inactives have come back to fill out our rosters and morale is increasing daily thanks to the new PvP system. 40 people online at all times constantly PvPing has really been a good thing for us, since pre-patch we hardly ever grouped together as a guild to PvP. The patch has been a much needed blessing in revitalizing motivation.

#48 pdok

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 03:43 AM

For us it's not so much the patch itself, but the combination of many issues
- Xmas period, which is primary holiday period for Oz/Nz
- The patch, which will take a week or two to adjust to
- The ease of PvP rewards, not so much for mains but alts
- A general resignation that 4-5 weeks is not enough time to clear 7 boss to finish Naxx.

We are going to try next week teaming up with another guild in Naxx to see if we can continue the progression.

Maybe with 60 people to choose from we can get 40 to jump and not disconnect on Thaddius :p

#49 Tharas

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 03:45 AM

People who did the GM/HWL grind stopped being special about 6 months ago when BWL cash runs came into vogue. When someone can buy an Ashkandi for 500g or something from a random guild, your HWL 2h doesn't look quite so special anymore.

To put things into perspective, the Rank12 armor is level 71. That's Majordomo loot. The Rank13 armor is level 74. That's Vael loot. The Rank14 weapons are level 79. That's a bit above Chromaggus/Huhuran.

The weapons are still nice, certainly, but it's misguided to imagine that the rest really is some great prize or has been at any point in recent times.

The HWL/GM player title is, oddly enough, the real lasting mark of distinction. A year or two from now there won't be so many of those, to say the least, and no one will remember this crappy gear.

I think our server is considerably slower progress-wise than Malganis, even though we are a release server. BWL cash runs were available from one Alliance-side guild starting in October, maybe September. Of the weapons that are ilvl 79 or so -- Ashkandi was 1000g, Crul'Shorukh 800g, CTS 700g, Ashjre'Thul 700g (those are the current prices, might have been higher then?). And, given the droprates of some of those items you might be sitting through quite a few raids before you got your drop, spaced out over enough weeks, plus the gold-farming time, you might as well just grind out the GM weapon, it's probably significantly faster, and hopefully more fun.

I agree that the rest of it isn't terribly amazing once you are killing Twin Emps/C'Thun/Naxx bosses. However, when you are in a guild that is only clearing BWL and parts of AQ40, in many (most? all?) cases the weapons are solid upgrades, and far more deterministic to get. I'm actually looking forward to getting some of our rogues and warriors at least one of these weapons.

Personally, I figured they would serve me in good stead thru the early-middle-ish parts of TBC. Reports I've gotten from people playing in beta were that good armor items were prevalent but really good weapons, less so.

#50 RK

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 03:58 AM

I think the worst hit are the guilds who have ~20ish folk who are really keen to continue raiding, and ~20ish that would rather not. These are the groups that break.

That was more or less us. The core gave up, /gdisband, and formed a new guild to form the basis of expansion raiding. In the meantime, pvp or sleep.

I've earned maybe 6k honor since 2.0, which should tell you how much I have chosen "sleep" :)

#51 RK

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 04:09 AM

I think our server is considerably slower progress-wise than Malganis, even though we are a release server. BWL cash runs were available from one Alliance-side guild starting in October, maybe September. Of the weapons that are ilvl 79 or so -- Ashkandi was 1000g, Crul'Shorukh 800g, CTS 700g, Ashjre'Thul 700g (those are the current prices, might have been higher then?). And, given the droprates of some of those items you might be sitting through quite a few raids before you got your drop, spaced out over enough weeks, plus the gold-farming time, you might as well just grind out the GM weapon, it's probably significantly faster, and hopefully more fun.

I agree that the rest of it isn't terribly amazing once you are killing Twin Emps/C'Thun/Naxx bosses. However, when you are in a guild that is only clearing BWL and parts of AQ40, in many (most? all?) cases the weapons are solid upgrades, and far more deterministic to get. I'm actually looking forward to getting some of our rogues and warriors at least one of these weapons..

Yeah, if we're not a release server we were certainly around in January 2005 when I originally created this character, and there has never ever been a BWL cash run on Horde side Windrunner by anyone ever.

Mal'Ganis is high pop generally, with lots of geared transfers, and is almost uniquely well populated Horde side. Most Horde populations have never had Mal'Ganis' population base to support lots of high-end raiding guilds, and even for those that reach Naxx, BWL is still needed to help gear up the next wave of recruits cannibalized from the guilds underneath. Don't assume that BWL cash runs (or high-end gear in general)are as widely available as on servers like Mal'Ganis, especially for Horde.

Anecdotally, Horde win-rate is dropping off in AB as the undergeared masses flock in to try and get gear of a quality that has never been in their reach.

#52 Mist

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 04:16 AM

We weren't able to raid until Sunday, thanks to our server, but we got our second 4h kill tonight, and killed all other bosses except Loatheb (who just isn't worth it if we're not attempting saph this week.)

I'd say we're still in pretty good shape. Also every single one of our rogues that never got a decent dagger upgrade all have GM dirks now.

#53 Ngita

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 04:25 AM

Well next Monday will be our last day of raiding for the year and while we would normally start up again a week into the new year their is little point with TBC so close.

I dont think you could say it was depression , more a complete failure at raiding ,0 bosses dead in naxx compared to 7 last week. But we have acknowledged that we will be only raiding with 25 next year and a few people have added up numbers and said hmmm 6th hunter or 7th Rogue etc and have left this last week. Others have respecced to shadow priest .retribution paladin etc and the main tank has been quite vocal on that.


As for the pvp side of it sure its not Naxx loot ,but if you have been using a Staff of Dominance or exalted aq20 weapon or off handing a brutality blade for the last year, let alone the poor paladin who after 30 Kills of Golemagg and 35 kills of Nefarian was still using the ZG quest reward for his chest its "instant" upgrades.

#54 Praetorian

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 05:00 AM

Personally, I figured they would serve me in good stead thru the early-middle-ish parts of TBC. Reports I've gotten from people playing in beta were that good armor items were prevalent but really good weapons, less so.

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#55 Praetorian

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 05:04 AM

We weren't able to raid until Sunday, thanks to our server, but we got our second 4h kill tonight, and killed all other bosses except Loatheb (who just isn't worth it if we're not attempting saph this week.

I'm not sure this is the case anymore, depending on your group composition. You can get by with far fewer consumables and you can do some abusive things that are perhaps oversights as a result of the new patch. If you have any shadow priests, Vampiric Embrace is magic now and won't fall off Loatheb. If you have any pure holy priests, Circle of Healing doesn't trigger Loatheb's debuff and a priest can cast it on multiple DPS groups in lieu of their bandaging for a significant DPS boost. Plus of course you have extra debuff slots, etc.

I wouldn't write off Loatheb even if you aren't going further in a given timer.

The only boss that I think just plain isn't worth killing if you know for sure you aren't going any further would be Gothik, because he can be fairly hard and his loot table is awful. Loatheb drops good stuff.

#56 Mist

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 05:31 AM

Well, we just didn't have a lot of time this week, and uh... well, funny story, I posted that as we were owning 4h, we went back to kill Gluth and Thaddius and uh.... Gluth owned us 3 times in a row and we ran out of time for the week. His behavior is a little... odd, and we were using someone's alt as our only dwarf priest.

We didn't really want to use the Circle of Healing trick/bug/exploit/whatever. We probably should have, had I known how bad Gluth was going to go. I'm sure we could have tried out a lot of the new tricks for Loatheb, but didn't really feel it was worth it having less than 10 hours total to raid for the entire week. And Loatheb drops good stuff for you maybe, but not for us. If he dropped any more pairs of cloth pants they'd be rotting right now, and lets not talk about the reflections...

Regardless, our only goal for the week was to repeat our 4h kill from last week, and we did that on the third attempt. I'm personally shocked we even got past Faerlina this week, with the UI/client/server problems we had this week.

#57 Sebila

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 05:37 AM

Just got our first Loatheb kill tonight, the guild is doing allright post patch imo.

Happy hunting!

#58 Bekah

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 05:56 AM

Just got our first Loatheb kill tonight, the guild is doing allright post patch imo.

Happy hunting!

Indeed. No Circle of Healing priests either (but 2 hax shadow priests)

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#59 Cathela

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 06:21 AM

To the OP in particular: Never say die. I've been in a situation where "everyone" was abandoning the guild, and the one thing I learned is if you have a solid core that will stay come hell and high water, then Bob's your uncle. Right now is the best time to weed out the undependables anyway. Recruit people who will be equally committed as those who weathered the storm, and you'll be better in the expansion than you were before it.

I just want to echo this. Our guild lost a lot of people last spring in a splintering, including our entire warrior corps. Morale went pretty low, but our GM absolutely refused to throw in the towel, and convinced the rest of us to stick it out. Today we're the only Alliance guild on our server that can kill C'thun. It really sucked at the time, but we learned which people in the guild were willing to stick it out through hard times, and we're better off for it today.
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#60 Bad Luck

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Posted 12 December 2006 - 06:21 AM

I would like to try Loatheb post-patch. Interested to see how Imp. LOTP holds up the group in practice.




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