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Tanking observations in 2.0?


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#21 suicuique

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 11:47 AM

a tank with buffed 1200 AP would have 85.7 adps (ap dps) but that does not count into devastate.

If I am not mistaken. "Weapon Damage" always refers to WeaponRange+APBonus=WeaponRange+AP/14*WeaponSpeed.

Sunder Armor got 259.1 tps btw...

IIRC Sunder does 260 Threat. As it also does trigger GlobalCD i beg to differ.

devastate heavily depends on mob aborb and weapon damage.

You are right on that one. But fully sundered mobs have usually less than 20% AC Mitigation.
Just do a thunderclap and calculate the mitigation of a given mob.

well thats the g*d d*mn truth right now, devastate sucks for tanking, DO NOT USE IT for TANKING!!!

It is not a god sent skill, but I beg to differ.
After the sunder stack is fully applied I have yet to find a mob where devestate performs less threat.

Heroic Strike is by far the best threat ability we have. (See link)

But HS is not the skill to rival devastate. Because one is on next swing and the other is on GCD.
The GCD skill i rate are ShieldSlam, Revenge, Devastate, Sunder.
In that order.

good threat spammage would be clicking heroic while doing revenge+shield slam and from time to time a sunder.

I suggest to recalculate devastate TPS with AP and lesser mitigation considered.
Your mileage may change drastically.

Besides devastate does proc TF. Sunder do not AFAIK (though i concede i never tested that one).

btw using devastate on a UNSUNDERED mob is a complete waste of rage, it generates nearly no threat.

Using devestate before a full sunder stack is applied is indeed detrimental. On more than one account.

#22 Heisenberg

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 11:52 AM

So, given the terrible inefficiency of Heroic Strike, we're back to the old Sunder spam and Revenge when it lights up, with Heroic strikes to use any extra rage up, unless we're in an unlimited rage scenario.

Was Devastate intended purely to allow Protection warriors a chance to do some damage? Or will the increased DPS weapons in TBC allow it to out-strip Sunder for aggro?

EDIT: Yes, Sunder does cause Thunderfury to proc.

#23 Kaubel

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 12:38 PM

Lots and lots of uncapitalized sentences.

Long posts are no excuse. Think it over.

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#24 suicuique

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 12:51 PM

So, given the terrible inefficiency of Heroic Strike, we're back to the old Sunder spam and Revenge when it lights up, with Heroic strikes to use any extra rage up, unless we're in an unlimited rage scenario.

I would not judge that by the above numbers.
As stated in my reply above AP Bonus is calculated into Devastate damage.

Fully raidbuffed I have ca. 1400 AP in tank gear. Thats 100 extra DPS to consider which are multiplied with 2.4 speed for most one handers.
That is extra 120*DmgModifier extra threat for each devastate.

With 20% crit rate, 6% hit that Dmgmodifier is something like
(0.4*0.76+0.2*2+0.3*1)*1.3*1.15*1.1*MitigationModifier=1.65*MitigationModifier
when deep prot specced.

With mitigation <20% that would result in DmgModifier=1.32 or 158 extra threat as the contirbution of AP Bonus (neglected in above post).

Still think devastate is crap?

EDIT: Yes, Sunder does cause Thunderfury to proc.

I stand corrected then.

EDIT: Typos

#25 Roana

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 01:03 PM

a tank with buffed 1200 AP would have 85.7 adps (ap dps) but that does not count into devastate.

If I am not mistaken. "Weapon Damage" always refers to WeaponRange+APBonus=WeaponRange+AP/14*WeaponSpeed.

Actually, Devastate uses normalized weapon damage, i.e.:

WeaponRange+APBonus=WeaponRange+AP/14*2.4.

As always, One-handed Weapon Specialization also applies to the damage.

You can easily test that on a mob that you can sunder down to zero armor (Gnomeregan elites, for example).

It is not a god sent skill, but I beg to differ.
After the sunder stack is fully applied I have yet to find a mob where devestate performs less threat.

Yes, Devastate generally does more threat-per-second than Sunder Armor; however, it may give you less threat-per-rage.

Heroic Strike is by far the best threat ability we have. (See link)

But HS is not the skill to rival devastate. Because one is on next swing and the other is on GCD.
The GCD skill i rate are ShieldSlam, Revenge, Devastate, Sunder.
In that order.

To add to the above, Zork's link is misleading, because it includes auto-attack damage in the threat of Heroic Strike. Actual Heroic Strike threat is not nearly as large, but comes only out to about 171 TPS (less on mobs that have damage mitigation, more on mobs where Heroic Strike avoids glancing blows).

#26 Gyshall

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 01:49 PM

Was Devastate intended purely to allow Protection warriors a chance to do some damage? Or will the increased DPS weapons in TBC allow it to out-strip Sunder for aggro?

Devastate is a utility/snap aggro ability. I've found that in certain fights - Noth and The Twin Emps specifically, where the 5 sunder armor debuff stack is always on, it's incredibly useful. I've also found that in high rage situations, it's pretty good too - I use a Widow's Remorse, and Heroic Strike/Devastate nets me around 800 damage when used together (keep in mind that this is in high rage situations, but it's still pretty useful.)

It's not really there to take the place of Shield Slam or Revenge, either. But after 5 sunders, you can replace sequential Sunder Armor spam with Devastate, and add a bit of yellow damage to your DPS (where there would be none if you were just using Sunder).

#27 Uziel

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 01:56 PM

We had a real raid for the first time last night. I am MT and we did Anub'rekhan. I am full protection spec with a Thunderfury. From what I could see, I was definitely generating more threat with Devastate. I would get 5 sunders on him, and make sure Heroic Strike and Devastate were being used.

However, I did have to work more at it. Generally I'm miles ahead of rogues and mages on threat, but people were catching up the entire time.

#28 Foghorn Deadhorn

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 02:15 PM

Couple of questions, since I've hardly played live since the big patch, and these go into consideration for Sunder vs. Devistate, and that's their ability to:

Proc crusader?
Proc windfury?

My understanding is that sunder was not proccing windfury and devistate was. That certainly must be tacked on to devistate's threat values if so. And crusader counts, if you use it, especially with devistate in, I never did change to AGI and I don't know if I will. I am an aggro whore, that's all there is to it.

Also, what are the normalization speeds for devistate? This was a point of curiosity for me as well.

Assuming that devistate does proc windfury and crusader, it seems to me that slow weapons are now king for tanking, if you are a prot tank, unless you are in one of those fabled "infinite rage" scenarios in which of course high speed is god. I'd even like to see the math for that -- how would harder-hitting windfury procs (from devistate) and higher devistate damage with, say, a 2.6 weapon, balance against the loss of HS speed from an equal DPS high-speed weapon?

[Edit] To answer the question about the purpose of devistate, it's a nicely scaling aggro ability for warriors, at what point it passes sunder I don't know, as there's clearly some debate to be had over its values.

#29 suicuique

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 02:37 PM

Also, what are the normalization speeds for devistate? This was a point of curiosity for me as well.

Normalized speed is 2.4 for 1h Swords/Axes/Maces. And fists i *think* get 2.4 too.
Daggers get 1.7

2h weapons get 3.3 but thats just for the records.

#30 Deathstorm

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 02:37 PM

It is not a god sent skill, but I beg to differ.
After the sunder stack is fully applied I have yet to find a mob where devestate performs less threat.

Yes, Devastate generally does more threat-per-second than Sunder Armor; however, it may give you less threat-per-rage.

I don't follow, if the skill costs the same as sunder and the cooldown is the same how can it give me more threat per second but less threat per rage? I can see what you're saying if the mob has some abnormally high amount of armor but then devastate is always going to come out worse than sunder.

#31 Heisenberg

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 02:42 PM

I don't follow, if the skill costs the same as sunder and the cooldown is the same how can it give me more threat per second but less threat per rage?

Improved Sunder talent, I guess.

#32 Kruthal

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 02:42 PM

It is not a god sent skill, but I beg to differ.
After the sunder stack is fully applied I have yet to find a mob where devestate performs less threat.

Yes, Devastate generally does more threat-per-second than Sunder Armor; however, it may give you less threat-per-rage.

I don't follow, if the skill costs the same as sunder and the cooldown is the same how can it give me more threat per second but less threat per rage? I can see what you're saying if the mob has some abnormally high amount of armor but then devastate is always going to come out worse than sunder.

Improved Sunder Armor? That is assuming Focused Rage and Imp Sunder stack, in the sense that Sunder Armor costs 9 rage if you have both, while Devastate would still cost 12 rage.

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#33 Deathstorm

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 02:43 PM

We had a real raid for the first time last night. I am MT and we did Anub'rekhan. I am full protection spec with a Thunderfury. From what I could see, I was definitely generating more threat with Devastate. I would get 5 sunders on him, and make sure Heroic Strike and Devastate were being used.

However, I did have to work more at it. Generally I'm miles ahead of rogues and mages on threat, but people were catching up the entire time.

I've generally found the opposite, I can't see any noticable difference from using devastate besides the times I get too eager to try it early and focus on getting 5 sunders instead of the highest threat generation and some over eager dps class gets pretty close to over-aggro'ing me which also seems an awful lot easier since patch.

I'm normally an OT but because I have a TF I get to go first on trash and on fights like Noth but I really don't find much value in using devastate over abilities like shield slam or revenge for snap aggro, I sometimes feel it's barely up to sunder in threat but that's just me being too negative on the thing. I don't know about you guys but I didn't get a 41 point talent in protection so I could be slightly less half arsed dps on Loatheb.

#34 Roana

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 02:56 PM

Improved Sunder Armor? That is assuming Focused Rage and Imp Sunder stack, in the sense that Sunder Armor costs 9 rage if you have both, while Devastate would still cost 12 rage.

Exactly. Devastate needs to generate one third more threat than Sunder Armor to break even for threat/rage (339 threat before you consider the defensive stance bonus), meaning it would have to hit for an average of 292 points of damage.

There's also the issue that a good Devastate weapon (i.e., one that is reasonably slow) will impact your Heroic Strike threat negatively, meaning that you lose out on some Heroic Strikes, pushing the break-even point even farther up.

On the other hand, if you're tanking a DPS fight in a 5-man instance, then Devastate is great -- you sacrifice only very little threat for a pretty good boost to party DPS. After all, Devastate is still easily equal in threat generation to a pre-patch Improved Sunder Armor.

#35 Trindade

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Posted 15 December 2006 - 03:17 PM

It's not really there to take the place of Shield Slam or Revenge, either. But after 5 sunders, you can replace sequential Sunder Armor spam with Devastate, and add a bit of yellow damage to your DPS (where there would be none if you were just using Sunder).

Spot on. The talent isn't supposed to replace your primary threat abilities, it's a scaling ability to replace the flat one (sunder).

Devastate is excellent. I spec'd prot for a couple of days and tried it out tanking some bosses. Once the full set of raid debuffs went up, I was hitting between 250's and 290's (using Blessed Qiraji War Hammer, in defensive stance -- obviously) with just normal raid buffs and battleshout. Even if it had no threat modifier attached, that would put it ahead of sunder. Sure, if you try it out by yourself with no buffs, and don't get a full set of debuffs on the mob it is going to look like it sucks. That's not a valid test though. Consider the fact that it can crit and benefit from consumables, and it blows sunder out of the water.

Later in the raid I wore my dps gear, with normal raid buffs and battleshout I was critting for high 600's to mid 900's with it (using a Misplaced Servo Arm, in battle/beserker stance), hits were obviously for half that. Result? You could probably pull ~400dps of devastate damage in current gear -- that's some fairly chunky yellow damage for a prot spec warrior, and it put a new perspective on the ability for me.

It's a 41 point talent, just remember that. A lot of warrior talents only become good with gear and levels; e.g.: bloodthirst doesn't look too good compared to mortal strike at level 50.

#36 hiro

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 05:48 PM

Spot on. The talent isn't supposed to replace your primary threat abilities, it's a scaling ability to replace the flat one (sunder).

...
[Example from his Naxx geared experiences]
...
It's a 41 point talent, just remember that. A lot of warrior talents only become good with gear and levels; e.g.: bloodthirst doesn't look too good compared to mortal strike at level 50.

And remember that gear ilevels in TBC skyrocket, so abilities that "only become good with amazing gear" are all going to be powered by "amazing gear" in relation to what we know now.

[Edited the quote to more concisely show the ideas I was expanding upon.]

#37 Quigon

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 06:39 PM

Honestly devastate is only useful as dps and for Thaddius.

#38 hiro

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 06:52 PM

It's fairly obvious to me that Blizzard should either (a) give warriors a 1.0s global cooldown (maybe only in defensive stance?), or (b) take revenge off of the GCD. Right now, it seems Devastate often takes a backseat to Heroic Strike simply because there isn't enough time in the timer rotation for it, and that strikes me as a pretty bad reason to not be using a 41-point tanking ability.

I've got no warriors of any impressive level, but from what I recall on my alt, revenge was only after they dodge/block or something (should be less than 20% of the time) and only every 8 seconds or so...

It doesn't seem that should be used more than once every 10 seconds or so on average, what is taking the rest of your GCD time?

Shield Block? That's the only thing I could think of that you would want to spam nonstop (besides sunder/devastate/shield slam, etc - the abilities you were saying got starved out of global cooldown time)

#39 Apate

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 07:23 PM

I've got no warriors of any impressive level, but from what I recall on my alt, revenge was only after they dodge/block or something (should be less than 20% of the time) and only every 8 seconds or so...

check closely:
http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=11585
http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=25288

Note which spell says "...after the target..."
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#40 hiro

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 08:39 PM

Ah, K, so two things on 5-6 second cooldown, and after every mitigated blow in any way...

Our Judgement is off the GCD so there are definitely precedents for the sort of thing you are suggesting... but it looks like you might have used your "no global cooldown" credit on Shield Block.

http://thottbot.com/?sp=2565

Us pallies have a poor man's shield block, but it counts for 4 blocks and we can only use it once every 10 seconds so it doesn't do anything significant to our Global cooldown budget, even though it DOES trigger the GCD.

http://thottbot.com/?sp=20925




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