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Druids and Aggro Generation


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#21 Cryect

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 11:06 PM

Tested and gathered swipe AP contributions from level 1 bunnies with Faerie Fire on them. (Line fitting matched for 0 AP at ~110 as expected).
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#22 Evert

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 11:26 PM

I totally approve of killing bunnies in the name of science. as well as stacking a raid with 20 feral druids.
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#23 Tyvi

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 11:27 PM

For most stuff I just did an ilvl 100+ search on thott and sorted by armor. Picked what seemed reasonable. I guess thott is missing a bunch of stuff.

Edit - Ahh, I dug around in some of the lower ilvl stuff (80-90) and found much more high armor items.

Don't confuse the Druids tanking 5-20 mans in DPS gear for the Druids wearing full mitigation gear in 40 man raids.

Imagine a Druid tank having a scale like this:


[----------------------------------------------------------------------]
Max Threat Max Mitigation

Usually in hard content it will look like this:

[---------------------------------------------------------------------|-]
Max Threat Max Mitigation

(Note I am just talking about gear not buffs. I don't remember the last time I had issues in Max Mitigation gear either though because buffs and Sunder do help alot.)

#24 Melthar

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 11:40 PM

Make notice both cat form and bear form mangles currently can stack resulting in two 1.3x multipliers for damage on bleeds.

Currently (on live at least) mangles from all Druids stack.

edit: oops I was calculating off of 30% mangle debuff, not 25%. Still quite abusable however.

I realize this is somewhat of a derail, but I wonder how long it'll take before this is massively abused. If you can manage to get 15 feral druids in a raid that'll result in 10,000+ per tick rips easily.

If you somehow manage to get 20 druids so all 40 debuff slots are taken from just mangles and rips it would give a 190x multiplier to bleed effects, resulting in 50,000 per tick rips (assuming a normal tick of 263). With 20 druids that's 500,000 raid DPS. You could do loatheb without any consumables. Hell you could kill most bosses within the 12 second period of the first rip.

Even with 25% mangle, 20 druids = ~86.74times damage. That's 22812 damage/tick for each druid or about 225k raid DPS, 2.7mill damage over 12s..

You'd better hope there's a couple of tanks with some +spellhit gear, because they're going to need that taunt..

Now.. if we could get 20 ferals on thaddius..


Back on topic. I am really looking forward to seeing the final figures on lacerate threat and what the multiplier is like. Easiest test I guess would be to have someone else do a certain amount of white damage to a target, then try and pull using only lacerate. This at least should give an indication of whether the bonus threat is applied on tick, or if it's upfront bonus threat + regular damage-threat for each tick.

#25 Boevis

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 12:07 AM

Even with 25% mangle, 20 druids = ~86.74times damage. That's 22812 damage/tick for each druid or about 225k raid DPS, 2.7mill damage over 12s..

You'd better hope there's a couple of tanks with some +spellhit gear, because they're going to need that taunt..

Now.. if we could get 20 ferals on thaddius..


Back on topic. I am really looking forward to seeing the final figures on lacerate threat and what the multiplier is like. Easiest test I guess would be to have someone else do a certain amount of white damage to a target, then try and pull using only lacerate. This at least should give an indication of whether the bonus threat is applied on tick, or if it's upfront bonus threat + regular damage-threat for each tick.

Reminds me of Gurg's 38 Enhancement Shamen (38 Stormstrikes), 1 Elemental, 1 Tank for 3m Lightning Bolts ... why you have a tank is beyond me, untauntable mobs mean the elem shaman has aggro.

My early calculations for Lacerate with 1000 AP, a 30% Mangle increase, and the standard 75% increased threat placed it as the same TPR with a 5 stack as Maul. Maul can crit, but lacerate ignores armor, in the end they're fairly similar.

#26 squiffy

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 12:09 AM

Even with 25% mangle, 20 druids = ~86.74times damage. That's 22812 damage/tick for each druid or about 225k raid DPS, 2.7mill damage over 12s..

You'd better hope there's a couple of tanks with some +spellhit gear, because they're going to need that taunt..

I think a raid of 20 ferals saving 5 point rips for when Onyxia hits 68% would be the perfect time to abuse it.

#27 Zyla

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 12:27 AM

I wonder what would happen if you killed onyxia in phase two :D

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#28 Anias

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 12:31 AM

Not my observed behavior on beta, not specced feral on live to test it there. =P
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#29 Anias

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 12:43 AM

I wonder what would happen if you killed onyxia in phase two :D

Um, she crashes into the ground, nose first.

I'll see if I can dig up a screenshot, but it's been a while. We might have had a heavy warlock raid.
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#30 Glaurong

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 01:06 AM

For most stuff I just did an ilvl 100+ search on thott and sorted by armor. Picked what seemed reasonable. I guess thott is missing a bunch of stuff.

Edit - Ahh, I dug around in some of the lower ilvl stuff (80-90) and found much more high armor items.

Don't confuse the Druids tanking 5-20 mans in DPS gear for the Druids wearing full mitigation gear in 40 man raids.

Imagine a Druid tank having a scale like this:


[----------------------------------------------------------------------]
Max Threat Max Mitigation

Usually in hard content it will look like this:

[---------------------------------------------------------------------|-]
Max Threat Max Mitigation

(Note I am just talking about gear not buffs. I don't remember the last time I had issues in Max Mitigation gear either though because buffs and Sunder do help alot.)

Bumped the searches up to include epics from TBC and was able to get to 20k armor, 14k health and 2500 AP. I left the spreadsheet at work but dodge and defense was pretty decent too.
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#31 Meddler

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 01:35 AM

Bumped the searches up to include epics from TBC and was able to get to 20k armor, 14k health and 2500 AP. I left the spreadsheet at work but dodge and defense was pretty decent too.

For physical damage dealing bosses I'd personally still be inclined to trade off a chunk of that attack power for extra armour where feasible. 20k may sound high by current standards but given you'll need somewhat over 30k from memory to hit the 75% cap against a level 73 opponent and that druids are very dependent on AC based mitigation there's still a lot of potential mitigation that's being passed up on.

Be interested if you could chuck up a gear list though of what's going in to those figures - a set of high AP gear just in case there are any very agro sensitive but not too mitigation demanding fights has been something I've been thinking about putting together in TBC while gearing up again.

#32 Glaurong

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 01:40 AM

If you can wait till tommorow I can copy/paste from the spreadsheet. If not the items all are up on thott.

Really its stuff like this: http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=13907

That make the high AP builds possible though. Not to mention: http://www.thottbot.com/beta?set=641

That set, fully socketed, is just absolutely insane.
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#33 Meddler

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 01:48 AM

Fully expected Earthwarden to be in there yes :).

Putting together tanking sets based off the feral tier sets is a bit difficult given it's far from bear focused gear. Could certainly make for a somewhat viable on the fly swap to tank instead of dps set and as you say pretty good for a high AP set. Problem is though that we don't have any actual bear focused itemisation to compare it to, something there's been a fair bit of discussion about the lack of at a raid level so far in other threads, making it a default rather than a chosen trade off of survivability versus agro.

#34 Cryect

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 06:12 AM

I worked out a 12.5 second rotation which seems fairly maximal for such a short rotation.

Works out to the below most important numbers with the exacts in the updated original post.

Threat Per Second ~= A*(1+C)*(P*0.446+678)+185.6
Rage Required Per Second = 168 Rage/12.5 Seconds = 13.44 Rage/Second

A = Armor Mitigation
P = Attack Power
C = Crit Rate

Now this would be fairly optimal if lacerate never missed/dodged/parried though you do get one chance to try again with replacing a swipe before the Lacerate debuff falls off.
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#35 Cryect

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 06:16 AM

If we assume

A=70%
C=25%

Then we get the below much simplified number

Threat Per Second ~= P*0.39+778
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#36 Cryect

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 06:24 AM

One more interesting thing from the numbers we can work out though will need to redone potentially with new Lacerate numbers is determine at what Attack Power is it better to replace Lacerate with an additional Swipe

A*(1+C)*(P*0.24174+290)=4*580

Using the numbers of A=70% and C=25%

P*0.212+254=2320
P=9745

In otherwords, swipe will never replace using Lacerate for maximum aggro on single targets where you can build and maintain a 5 stack of Lacerate which was pretty much expected (well never meaning not till we get the gear to allow that much Attack Power but that will be a long way off at which time most of this will prolly change a lot).
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#37 Boevis

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 06:54 AM

Just to be a smart ass:
OMG Lacerate doesn't scale?!?!

I'm very pleased with it as a threat generating ability. All this talk of abusing Mangle to buff rip to insane levels has me thinking ... it would also buff Lacerate to insane threat levels if the same trick worked. If my math is right ... over 50,000 threat per tic on lacerate with 20 Mangles.

LFG 20 Druid Onyxia!!

#38 Cryect

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 07:28 AM

Threat Per Second ~= P*0.39+778
Rage Required Per Second = 168 Rage/12.5 Seconds = 13.44 Rage/Second

Took me a while to refind these but wanted to compare them to similarly generated Warrior numbers I found using the same

Grand Total: 719.7 * 1.15 * 1.3 -> 1075.9 TPS
RPS needed un-modified by talents: (4*15 + 20 + 5 + 2*15)/6 -> 19.2RPS -> 1573 DPS taken
RPS modified by talents: 13.2 RPS -> 914.2 DPS taken

http://beta.worldofw...8400885&sid=1#6

So we can see the rage needed by both warriors and druids in this situation is very similar.

Then for comparison purposes

P*0.39+778=1075.9 TPS
P=764

So 764 attack power is around the break even point for comparison to this similarly generated warrior threat values which are a whole lot less attack power based than the druid numbers are of course. So generally you will expect on a single target that a druid is likely generating more aggro.
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#39 Anias

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 12:04 PM

Something rarely examined is the threat gained from actual rage gen. 5 threat per point of rage you actually generate (so over genning you 100 doesn't do anything).

It's late, but it's not an insignifigant amount, and it has some interesting behavior. If I remember I'll try to model it tommorrow. Short summary - capping out at 100 rage, being less threat per rage efficient actually gens a bit more threat than you'd expect simply because you clear more room to generate additional rage.
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#40 Roana

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 01:55 PM

Something rarely examined is the threat gained from actual rage gen. 5 threat per point of rage you actually generate (so over genning you 100 doesn't do anything).

It is fairly insignificant, actually, because it is not modified by defensive stance/bear form. Gaining 5 point of rage from a Swipe or Maul crit means 25 points of threat. If you crit every third Maul and every third Swipe in a boss fight (assuming a 33% crit rate or thereabouts), that comes out to about 9 extra threat per second.

In a multi-mob tanking situation, note that threat from rage being generated is split evenly between mobs, just as threat from healing or buffs.

Normal rage generation from taking damage or doing white damage does not create any additional threat.




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