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Druids and Aggro Generation


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#41 Glaurong

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 05:12 PM

Would a 70 druid mind posting base stats? Str, Agi, Sta, HP, Armor? I dug around last night and couldn't find them anywhere.

Also Cyrect your description of the AP gain for swipe is mis-worded. It the formula below you have is correct (0.07 * AP) then it should read "1 damage per 14 AP".

Edit - Filling in a few things with guesses, 1500 hp, 70 str, 70 agi, 70 sta naked.

Gear:
Staff http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=13907
Back http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=15139
Chest http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16960
Feet http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16382
Finger 1 http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16315
Finger 2 http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16451
Hands http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16071
Head http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16961
Legs http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16958
Neck http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16400
Shoulders http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16959
Trinket 1 http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16494
Trinket 2 http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16834
Waist http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=9940
Wrist http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16188

Head/Leg/Shoulder Enchants:
http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=15715
http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16877
http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=8507

Other Enchants:
Enchant 2H Weapon - Savagery
Enchant Cloak - Major Armor
Enchant Chest - Exceptional Stats
Enchant Boots - Fortitude
Enchant Ring - Stats
Enchant Ring - Stats
Enchant Gloves - Threat
Enchant Bracer - Major Defense

Buffs and Consumables:

Battle Shout
Blessing of Might
Blessing of Kings
Devotion Aura
Stength of Earth
Grace of Air
Blood Pact
Elixir of Major Strength
Mark of the Wild
PW: Fortitude
Flask of Fortification
Elixer of Major Defense
Elixer of Major Agility

Final stats:

Strength: 527
Agility: 518
Stamina: 1005
Defense Rating: 180
Dodge Rating: 69

Attack Power: 2659
Armor: 22013
Health: 16313


* Additional note: With the inspiration proc up this druid will have 28616 armor, creeping up on 75% mitigation. 30% avoidance and 75% mitigation ... 17.5% incoming damage
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#42 Cryect

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 07:31 PM

Also Cyrect your description of the AP gain for swipe is mis-worded. It the formula below you have is correct (0.07 * AP) then it should read "1 damage per 14 AP".

Because the number worked out to fit exactly 0.07 and 1/14 doesn't match the numbers very close at all.

Atk Pwr	Data	0.07		1 per 14
 445		152	151.998	 152.8371429
 473		154	154.5852	155.4771429
1314		232	232.2936	234.7714286
1554		254	254.4696	257.4
For 0.07 formula was (84+(Atk Pwr)*0.07)*1.1*1.2 and for 1 per 14 it was (84+(Atk Pwr)/14)*1.1*1.2
I need to do something useless.

#43 Glaurong

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 08:32 PM

Not saying you are wrong, just saying its mis-worded

1 damage per 0.07 Attack Power

That would mean with 1000 AP, I get 14286 damage added to my swipe!
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#44 Cryect

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 08:40 PM

Whoops :-p
I need to do something useless.

#45 Myonax

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 09:05 PM

In TBC my druid has 2 sets, A mitigation/Stam set that clocks in at 18500 Armor and 13000 health 1300AP. I rarely use this. My standard 5 man tanking set 15000 Armor 11000 Stamina and 1500 AP. While tanking an instance I am top 2 or 3 for DPS. I have never seen a TBC warrior beat anyone other then main healer for DPS. Warlocks, Rogues and Elemental shaman are the three classes that I see consistently beat me on DPS. All of the best 5 mans I have been in have a druid tank. The only time we ever prefer a warrior tank is if the content was above our level or it was a heroic mode instance. In those cases the mitigation in block/parry/dodge from a warrior are essential.

#46 Cryect

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 10:48 PM

After doing a few tests it looks like 1.75x is the multiplier for Lacerate.
I need to do something useless.

#47 Melthar

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 02:55 AM

Applied on a per tick basis?

#48 Meddler

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 03:52 AM

Given that Idol of Brutality's no longer such a buff to Maul's rage efficiency thought I'd take a look at Maul vrs Mangle in low rage situations.

Borrowing the above equations:

Maul 10 Rage Talented
Aggro_Maul=A*(1+C)*(P*0.61669+1080)

Mangle 15 Rage Talented
Aggro_Mangle=A*(1+C)*(P*0.64271+812.6)

Striping out the Armour mitigation and crit rating since these will be constant we're left with

P*0.61669+1080 for 10 rage for maul

P*0.64271+812.6 for 15 rage for mangle


At 2000 AP for arguement's sake this gives us:

2313 for Maul - 231 threat per rage

2098 for Mangle - 140 threat per rage

That however is ignoring the auto attack that would also get added into the equation so:

Auto attack at 2000 AP = 494 damage on average. Multiply by 1.1 (Naturalist), 1.3 (Bear form), 1.15 (Feral Instinct) and we get 812 threat, once again pre AC/crit of course.

So, Mangle + Auto attack becomes 2910 threat for 15 rage, 194 threat per point of rage and quite a bit closer to Maul. Main thing I'm missing here is the level 70 rage generated formula since mangle plus auto attack also generates some rage off the white damage which I suspect may actually tip this combination into the lead over straight maul unless I've missed something - would appreciate it if anyone had this to hand, about to go track it down though.

Mangle/auto attack also has the benefit of giving two chances to crit and therefore generate both rage off Primal Fury and a 4% heal off ILotP plus since it's spreading the threat over two attacks rather than one threat generation is likely to be somewhat more even reducing the risk of missing a maul and having no significant threat being added for 5 secs. This combination also puts out higher raw dps - not very significant in a raid but useful in a small group situation plus it keeps the mangle debuff up if that's of significance.

Edit: This may be old news to people, hadn't actually reassessed Maul's position though since the idol of brutality change and only just realised it's not necessarily the low rage default special. Also just realised the above calculations don't have any idols taken into account, +50 damage from maul still being optimal I guess, +58 on mangle though partly compensating so difference will be minor if only able to choose between those two moves - will rejig numbers when got a sec.

Edit2: Also need to know whether the damage added by the idols is multiplied by Savage Fury in particular. Assuming it does benefit from Naturalist but nothing else but would be good to get this confirmed.

#49 Boevis

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 04:50 AM

Idol of Rejuv is effected by Gift of Nature, Improved Rejuvenation, and Empowered Rejuvenation. I see no reason why the other +effect idols wouldn't be effected by everything possible as well.

#50 Northerner

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 05:19 AM

I must admit, I've always been a little ignorant of Druid tanking mechanisms as they are one of the only two classes I never bothered to level much past 20. If nothing else, thanks for the math to give me a little insight there. The repercussions of such a system are still rattling around in my head but I think I see what the devs have intended here.

The thing I find most interesting is the threat+damage v mitigation system that seems to naturally evolve and I'll be damned if I didn't wish warriors had some mythical stances like cat/bear that mirrored this functionality. As a Mage I've been annoyed countless times working with perfectly capable and competent Warriors doing trash content, who obviously prefer to tank in dps gear and more often than not in battle/'zerker. If they wear tanking gear, they get no rage. If they wear dps gear, they hate to stay in defensive and generally are specced for fury dps anyhow. Sadly dps-tanking for the cash-farming or mats-farming old 5-mans is all well and good but I still end up being the tank for almost everything unless we just AE the crap out of multi-pulls. A tank that scales threat with damage (while giving up mitigation) is a dream for that sort of thing. Also, having so many percentage-based multipliers is certainly a nice thing indeed.

It would also seem to me that armor reductions would be multiplicative for a Druid tank unless I am misunderstanding this information. Since sunders are not an issue, running (feral) FF, ImpExpose, CoR and so on might even make the threat gains significantly greater and the raid dps higher enough enough that bringing an additional healer to offset poorer avoidance worthwhile. I know, I am in beta and I do see Druids already being the 'preferred' tank for a lot of content but I just wonder at what point they would become not just preferable situationally but universally the best option. I certainly support having them as a tank of choice in some situations but I'd hate them to be simply better and only constrained by gear. I honestly don't see that yet but it is a concern given the differing nature of Druid v Warrior scaling.

Thanks for the information and apologies for the speculation without concrete data.

#51 Oaken

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 06:10 AM

Trinket 1 http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16494
Trinket 2 http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16834

Let me get this straight. Did I just read that right?

Having dropped Leatherworking (ok, wasn't that painful but still) and levelled Enchanting to 260-ish (that was painful) so I could make a Smoking Heart of the Mountain, am I now supposed to drop Alchemy and level Jewelcrafting to 375 to be able to make a Figurine - Dawnstone Crab? Or is there an alternate tanking trinket out there of equivalent utility?

Does Blizzard really hate us that much? Do they think this is funny?

#52 Cord

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 06:22 AM

Trinket 1 http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16494
Trinket 2 http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16834

Let me get this straight. Did I just read that right?

Having dropped Leatherworking (ok, wasn't that painful but still) and levelled Enchanting to 260-ish (that was painful) so I could make a Smoking Heart of the Mountain, am I now supposed to drop Alchemy and level Jewelcrafting to 375 to be able to make a Figurine - Dawnstone Crab? Or is there an alternate tanking trinket out there of equivalent utility?

Does Blizzard really hate us that much? Do they think this is funny?

Hell, I'm a Druid and I think it's funny.

here is some awareness. If you dont like it then dont read it. It doesnt effecct you so why care,...right? RIGHT?


#53 Tyvi

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 08:19 AM

Trinket 1 http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16494
Trinket 2 http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16834

Let me get this straight. Did I just read that right?

Having dropped Leatherworking (ok, wasn't that painful but still) and levelled Enchanting to 260-ish (that was painful) so I could make a Smoking Heart of the Mountain, am I now supposed to drop Alchemy and level Jewelcrafting to 375 to be able to make a Figurine - Dawnstone Crab? Or is there an alternate tanking trinket out there of equivalent utility?

Does Blizzard really hate us that much? Do they think this is funny?

Hell, I'm a Druid and I think it's funny.

Isn't SHotM better anyway?

#54 Prim

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 10:53 AM

does anyone have numbers on how much threat (if any) applying Faerie Fire in bear form causes, and if it's worth re-applying it every cooldown?

#55 Exewut

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 12:05 PM

does anyone have numbers on how much threat (if any) applying Faerie Fire in bear form causes, and if it's worth re-applying it every cooldown?

http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Aggro

#56 Melthar

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 01:28 PM

Trinket 1 http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16494
Trinket 2 http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16834

Let me get this straight. Did I just read that right?

Having dropped Leatherworking (ok, wasn't that painful but still) and levelled Enchanting to 260-ish (that was painful) so I could make a Smoking Heart of the Mountain, am I now supposed to drop Alchemy and level Jewelcrafting to 375 to be able to make a Figurine - Dawnstone Crab? Or is there an alternate tanking trinket out there of equivalent utility?

Does Blizzard really hate us that much? Do they think this is funny?

I'd be happy if they itemised an epic AC trinket (250-300+AC, defense, agi, dodge, stam) in jewel crafting, and made it BoP but not unique. Sure it would mean some stupid grinding, but I'm used to that by now, at least it would mean there's a trinket out there that's an upgrade.

#57 Dawn

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 01:40 PM

The thing I find most interesting is the threat+damage v mitigation system that seems to naturally evolve and I'll be damned if I didn't wish warriors had some mythical stances like cat/bear that mirrored this functionality. As a Mage I've been annoyed countless times working with perfectly capable and competent Warriors doing trash content, who obviously prefer to tank in dps gear and more often than not in battle/'zerker. If they wear tanking gear, they get no rage. If they wear dps gear, they hate to stay in defensive and generally are specced for fury dps anyhow. Sadly dps-tanking for the cash-farming or mats-farming old 5-mans is all well and good but I still end up being the tank for almost everything unless we just AE the crap out of multi-pulls. A tank that scales threat with damage (while giving up mitigation) is a dream for that sort of thing. Also, having so many percentage-based multipliers is certainly a nice thing indeed.

Fighting more than one mob I would not be surprised if arms spec using sweeping strikes, cleave and whirlwind and a big twohander is the best way to keep aggro.

#58 Darkmantle

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Posted 29 December 2006 - 09:08 AM

While being a good way to generate agro, it is also a good way to die. Serious tanking means the mobs hit so hard you need to use a shield.

#59 Evert

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Posted 29 December 2006 - 07:10 PM

arg. anyone have a link to that jewelcrafting leveling guide?
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#60 Tyvi

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Posted 29 December 2006 - 07:33 PM

arg. anyone have a link to that jewelcrafting leveling guide?

http://forums.elitis...pic.php?id=9009




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