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Should rogues just get two attack power per point of strength?


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#21 Lord BEEF

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 08:23 PM

They can't simply muck around with talents, because things are balanced in Tier 6. They have two choices: Nerf the rogue gear, or buff the druid gear. Whichever is appropriate depends on where the benefits are coming in. But if both classes use the same gear, there's no place to insert small tweaks to fix up the differential as desired.

When has changing itemization ever been a solution used to address balance issues? I can't think of a situation where they've ever buffed or nerfed gear due to scaling issues. The only situation where there's been anything like this is hunters and that's due to a core mechanics change. They certainly didn't add more spell damage to warlock gear when they were terrible DPS in naxx, even though warlocks did pretty well in MC back in that gear.

If for example, the gap between rogues and druids grows from 15% to 25% in a tier of gear, that simply means that the druid isn't getting as much from the increased stats as they need to be and it's a class mechanics/talents issue.

Blizzard would still have flexibility to fix these issues even if there was a growing gap. If for example shred from a druid was fine at tier 5, but underpowered at tier 6 they could just reduce the bonus damage on shred and increase the multiplier.
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#22 CheshireCat

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 08:25 PM

Could it be possible that Blizzard doesn't want you to have that much AP? Because if they did, they could have given it to you. To me it seems they kind of gamed the item values of the set a bit by adding strength to the set instead of attack power.

This argument was viable in 1.0, where there were a tiny, tiny handful of items with AGI and AP on them, and, because this double-dips the itemization formula where AP is concerned, these items were ridiculously good for rogues for their item level.

Now, though, Blizzard seems to have abandoned that concern, and tons of items have AGI and AP, and the itemization consequences are exactly the same as though they were itemized for STR and rogues got 2 AP per STR.

#23 berg

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 08:35 PM

I agree with the general notion that all of the classes should want something a little bit different to clear up loot disputes. That said, rogues are so generic right now that there is no specific rogue loot?

For mail items Agi/str or RAP/Spell damage will divide the hunters and the shaman.
For plate items int/+healing etc will separate warriors and pallies.
For leather there is no distinction for the rogues. The best rogue loot is also great druid loot and in many cases good hunter loot, shaman loot etc etc.

It would be nice for the rogues to have something to focus on but they have painted themselves into a corner in some ways.

Perhaps they could make rogues focus on some of the other nice but underused bonuses, like Haste Rating. If, for example, they gave rogues a passive 50% boost to any haste rating items then it could be made a viable avenue of gear selection for them.

#24 pf

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 08:51 PM

I can only see a few possible downsides:

The developers want agility to be the primary stat for rogues.

This could be seen as making strength just as good as it. However you could argue that they'd inadvertantly already made "attack power" the primary "stat" for rogues. (Does agility still give more value to a rogue per item budget? Obviously you want items to have both of course).

Agility would still give more dps for a buffed rogue, not to mention, the armor/dodge bonus from agi you still get. It would however give a nice little boost to unbuffed/pvp rogues due to base strength.

Does anyone really see a reason why Blizzard shouldn't just do this?

If Blizzard is going to give +agi/ap/crit/hit loot in TBC, there is no reason why they should not make this change. The reason it was there to start with was because they did not want rogues scaling past everyone, but if they give them the same thing through +ap itemization, it defeats the purpose. Also, making this change will not in anyway make rogues scale faster than other classes, but it will give them a bump up in their base-line dps.

Reasons not to would be: DPS warrior/feral jewelery would be more hotly contested with rogues. Not as much incentive to create +ap jewelery for hunters and hunters will feel itemization shortcomings for a while. A change like this would cause extra programming.

#25 Lord BEEF

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 09:35 PM

I agree with the general notion that all of the classes should want something a little bit different to clear up loot disputes. That said, rogues are so generic right now that there is no specific rogue loot?

I'm a bigger fan of letting people work out loot disputes to a certain extent and have most every drop be good for at least two classes to prevent item rot.

Pre TBC, if a hunter piece dropped you could give it to a hunter, or have it be used poorly by a shaman or warrior due to it being overly agility heavy. Post TBC the agi/ap split is actually very beneficial as now enhancement shamans can make very good use of "hunter" gear and warriors are better off as well.

If you want to make an item specific for just one class it's best to have it drop as a token. Tokens are items that are hotly contested and can be used by a variety of classes very well, and these are generally seen as a good thing.
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#26 Tyvi

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 09:38 PM

I didn't follow Druid DPS itemization much apart from the Tier sets so is there actually lots of Druid gear that has Str, Agi and NO increase in armor value? With the threat nerf and just looking at our tanking gear, the theme of itemization seems to be Bear/Cat hybrid items and if that is still the case then Rogues might not like the idea of homogenizing Druid and Rogue leather. Because what use is the increased AC value for a Rogue that wants to maximum DPS?
If there is dedicated Druid DPS leather ignore this. ;)

I actually did a search on Thott and found a whopping 3 Feral DPS items that used their item budget on DPS only. Either I suck at searching (Level req 60-70, Ilevel 80-200, Str>9, no quality limit) or there really are only 3 items. I still don't know what to expect as Feral DPS gear at level 70. Hybrid all stats stuff with +Heal, Bear/Cat hybrid DPS stuff or real DPS stuff? Knowing that is also important for the discussion because if Blizzard designed all items Rogue and Druid friendly the Druid would gain alot of more gear choices with dedicated and specialized DPS gear. I know from experience that specialized Bear gear with the modifiers as they are currently in game would be overkill (atleast pre-Threat nerf were additional Bear DPS could have been considered wasted). Same may apply to specialized Cat gear and current modifiers but like I said, I am more a Bear Druid so I might be off.

For those interested (Druid item on the left, same Ilvl Rogue item on the right if applicable):

Zierhut's Lost Treads Edgewalker Longboots
Feet Feet
219 Armor 219 Armor
+32 Strength Red and Yellow Socket
+26 Agility +27 Agility
+30 Stamina +25 Stamina
Requires Level 70 Equip: Improves hit rating by 10.
Equip: Increases attack power by 38.


Windslayer Wraps Cobrascale Gloves
Hands Hands
191 Armor 191 Armor
+36 Strength
+20 Agility
+30 Stamina +33 Stamina
Requires Level 70 Equip: Improves hit rating by 17.
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 25.
Equip: Increases attack power by 44.
Requires Level 70


Gloves of Ferocity
Hands
141 Armor
+23 Strength
+20 Agility
+21 Stamina
Requires Level 60

#27 Guest_alienangel_*

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 10:13 PM

When they changed the hunter agi:rap ratio, wasn't one of the stated reasons a desire to make itemization choices easier? I interpreted that to mean makign it possible to create one item that's the same for both hunters and rogues (as most agi/ap/crit/hit items now are). I think that's rather dumb, but if that were the case, now changing rogues to be the ones getting double AP from a stat just complicates the matter more. And puts rogues in the same category of potentially massive AP that hunters were pulled out from.

#28 Meddler

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 10:13 PM

Definitely want to include these as an example of cat optimised gear: http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=15198

35 str
20 agi
21 stam
20 AP

Won't have shown up in your search since it's a quest reward and therefore has no listed required level.

#29 Nite_Moogle

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 10:16 PM

I interpreted that to mean makign it possible to create one item that's the same for both hunters and rogues (as most agi/ap/crit/hit items now are).

As was mentioned, the overall change was to bring a greater emphasis on the weapon and to move away from shot rotation, but a melee shaman is just as happy with an item with AP, agility, stamina, intelligence and/or MP/5 as a hunter is. All of the "hunter items" that had loads agility but no AP are pretty worthless for a shaman, but by splitting the hunter's AP between agility and AP the item becomes more desirable for the other mail class as well (and plate for that matter).

Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.


#30 Kaiza

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 10:23 PM

Hmm, curious, but doesn't the feral armor sets you can get solve the itemization problem? Although I do get the point of the argument of wasting loot, your eventually going to go to a point where you'll see it anyyways, and can't avoid it. Although it wouldbe nice for us to just et 2 str from armor, blizzard just won't do it.


Although it would be a really good idea for prevention of loot wasting, now that I think about it :P.

#31 Copernicus

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 10:31 PM

Loot specialization also comes up for casters and healers.

The generic stats of stam, int, +heal, and mana/5 are useful for all four healing classes.

Only Druids and Priests want +spirit on their gear due to getting talents for mana regen while casting and talents that key off of spirit. All four classes can use spell crit%, but Paladins get probably the most benefit from it.

For DPS casters, hit% and crit% aren't that great for Affliction Warlocks or Shadow Priests, but are very important for Destruction Warlocks, Mages, Balance and Elemental Druids. Mages, Druids, and Priests are also the only classes that want Spirit.

----

I think having generic gear is good for leveling, while specializing the gear for specs and classes is better for the end game. They last a longer time then, and they become goals as opposed to something that is bypassed because the unoptomized level 63 version is better than the optimal level 61 item.

#32 Cluey

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 12:28 AM

I brought this up a couple of times in the druid talent thread, I would rather they just change our talents to effect Attack Power instead of Strength.

I was looking at loot last night as like you I have seen heaps of Agility/AP items.
While I was going through Thottbot last night looking at what my options were before blowing expensive enchants on items which will get replaced quickly my brain was ticking over.
I remembered that when they changed Nurturing Instinct to be a constant effect, instead of 6 seconds after shifting out, they also changed how much +healing was on the level 70 feral sets.
Also all the calculations done on the +feral AP weapons and the Arena armour which seemed to indicate that they were balanced around the druid having HotW and Naturalist to bring them up to other classes levels.

For these reasons I think it is intentional that they are using AP instead of Strength on many items so we don't exceed whatever power level they have in mind for us.

#33 TheOnly

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 01:31 AM

Hmm, curious, but doesn't the feral armor sets you can get solve the itemization problem? Although I do get the point of the argument of wasting loot, your eventually going to go to a point where you'll see it anyyways, and can't avoid it. Although it wouldbe nice for us to just et 2 str from armor, blizzard just won't do it.


Although it would be a really good idea for prevention of loot wasting, now that I think about it :P.

Class specific sets solve no problems long term and never will. We hate them, they cause loot waste, and all that. Items that many classes can use don't go to waste and we all love. People drool over Neltharion's tear and Rejuvinating Gem because they are amazing, AND cross class.

Cross-class items will always be very important, not every slot has class restricted items. Jewelry, trinkets, etc etc.

I agree with Lord BEEF. Just make them get 2 AP from 1 Str. It hurts nothing budget wise (same budget for equal AP). All they have to do is be careful of double dipping AP + STR items, which they must already be careful of due to druids, warriors, shaman, and paladins. There will still be slight differences in what is optimal for each class. Rogues will probably want an item with STR and AGI with a lean towards more AGI, and druids the other way. Arms versus Fury warriors are similar in their optimal skew of stats, and I'm sure melee shaman have similar build flavors that affect optimal stat balance.

"But warriors want 1AP per AGI too!". Yeah, do you want the same agi to crit ratio as well? I thought not.

This simplifies things. Rogues would value (per item budget) STR and AP the same (as will DPS warriors and Shaman). Thus, rings, jewelry, etc are all very much cross class for all melee and hunters, with slight variances (some specs might like AGI more in each class, others want more AP instead of crit, etc).

No argument against it above holds much water, and most of them above are filled with incorrect information.

1. First, as stated many times 2AP is the same item budget as 1 STR anyway. There is a 'double dipping' risk but there already is one for every other class, and even rogues (10 STR + 70AP cost less than 80AP with same benefit to rogues and more for everyone else)
2. Druids get more from 1 point of STR than 2AP. Cats get 2.4AP with talents, and ferals can get 0.5 +healing. There are multiple posts above that don't understand druid mechanics.

My last two thoughts.
- This is a good change for itemization of non class specific stuff for all melee. But if one class is overpowered because of the change other class tweaks can be made.
- The most interesting point (to me) in previous replies was about how this lets blizzard control class scaling via itemization rather than talents/mechanics. However, I find that a very bad way to control things. It makes players angry when they see their loot being unoptimal (too much STR on a rogue item, or AP instead of STR on a druid one, etc). Furthermore, this approach is really a hack and there are many examples of it failing in the past. If things aren't scaling right, fix the source of the problem, don't make loot itemization more complicated.

#34 Guest_alienangel_*

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 06:35 AM

My last two thoughts.
- This is a good change for itemization of non class specific stuff for all melee. But if one class is overpowered because of the change other class tweaks can be made.
- The most interesting point (to me) in previous replies was about how this lets blizzard control class scaling via itemization rather than talents/mechanics. However, I find that a very bad way to control things. It makes players angry when they see their loot being unoptimal (too much STR on a rogue item, or AP instead of STR on a druid one, etc). Furthermore, this approach is really a hack and there are many examples of it failing in the past. If things aren't scaling right, fix the source of the problem, don't make loot itemization more complicated.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean, but I always thought that was a very good way of controlling demand for specific items. Consider for instance the old Band of Reanimation (34 agi) vs Band of Unnatural Forces (52 ap 1% crit 1%hit). The former wasn't really appealing to anyone other than hunters, while the latter was appealing to hunters, rogues, warriors, druids and shamans. However Reanimation happened to be so good for hunters that hunters who had it often wouldn't bid heavily on Unnatural forces unless they really needed the +hit, freeing it up for melee. With the changes to Reanimation with 1.13, it continues to be lack lustre for warriors and druids, but delicious for rogues and slightly less delicious for hunters. So competition is a bit worse on Unnatural forces, and worse on Reanimation. Even more dramatic would be the choices of capes at BWL level - hunters went for Shrouded Mists (22 agi) and melee went for Firemaw (50 AP) or Puissant (AP + Hit). Now however Shrouded Mists is pretty shitty for hunters and there aren't really any capes more suited to hunters than to rogues (although there are things like Concentrated hatred that are more suited to rogues than hunters).

Making stats worth different amounts of AP and crit to different classes was a nice way to direct itemization towards different classes and specs without slapping a "class: X" on everything. Homogenizing everyone's itemization desires is more efficient in terms of loot rot, in that everything that drops is likely to be wanted by everyone, but it makes for more boring itemization, more competition, and less thought being put into what items you want to loot. It's lazier item design - make everyone want the same things, so we only need to make one item instead of three.

And FWIW, I selfishly hope to see fewer items with STR on them, not more. God I hate them for putting STR on Cloak of the Fallen God instead of AP. And I keep seeing more and more 2H blues dropping post level 60 with delicious amounts of crit on them, completely ruined by having Str on them instead of AP or AGI.

#35 Wodin

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 07:14 AM

It would be nice, but I suspect it's a pipe dream and would just mask the real issues that are going to crop up at 70. It would definitely be a step in the right direction, though, as we'd still have the lowest self-buffed AP of any melee class.

#36 Laïri

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 09:18 AM

The only true reason why they wouldn't do this I can see, and if this has been posted already I'm sorry, didn't have the time right now to read the entire thread just skimmed over it and didn't see it...

is... GotW, SoE and BoK would all impact rogue AP twice as much. There would be a serious increase in AP for all raiding rogues (though if you read the rogue thread this is probably needed).

#37 Kink

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 11:06 AM

A lot of people seem confused and are really not on topic, or are arguing points that no one made or contested. What I see there are 2 points. Only one of the points is "should rogues get 2AP per str" the other point is "after we make the first change, lets remove the +AP and make it the equivalent is +str)

So, my opinion is:

Leave it as it is.


I am in a guild that intends to do some high end raiding. I am not worried about druids taking my loot. I also am not worried about druids out dpsing me on raids, even as a full time feral. It just seems to me it is an entirely pointless change.

Druids now have some decent feral itemisation. Changing items as you suggested would accomplish nothing except to buff druids as they get 2.4 AP from str with talents (if I read correctly). Nothing I have seen/read justifies this to me. I do not see druids hurting for lack of choice, or being weak. Until we start to see ferals at level 70 with level 70 feral gear (that will surely stack strength), and we see ferals having problems, then and ONLY then, should we consider a drastic change like this. And I assure you the change won;t be to adjust rogues and lota of leather pieces, it will simply be a tweaking of ferals.
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#38 Mem

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 11:35 AM

While it is certainly true that due to the itemization Beef described there will be more loot to rot, this is mainly true for the 5 man content. As soon as raiding start, folks will focus on set items which will reduce the number of sharded items greatly. There will be some slots that are not covered by set items but assuming there are always some druids or enhancement shamans wanting to pick up dps leather focussing on base stats rather then ap and crit.
On the other hand the hassles from the past, where much drama ensued in PUGs when druids rolled for dps leather will be reduced by a great margin I guess.
Furthermore I agree with the assessment that this kind of itemization allows for a better finetuning of ferals and rogues. This won't be the only source of balancing but it will surely help. I also think that having AP as one primary stat for hunters and rogues (and the decision to change the hunter's RAP calculation) was exactly what Blizzard wanted.

Regarding haste rating: I don't see how this would become a rogue only stat. Shamans and warrior have their flurry ability, hunters have rapid fire and IAotH as well as some new haste abilities from their new talents. Haste is already spread between all classes able to deal physical damage.

#39 TheOnly

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 11:18 PM

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean, but I always thought that was a very good way of controlling demand for specific items. Consider for instance the old Band of Reanimation (34 agi) vs Band of Unnatural Forces (52 ap 1% crit 1%hit). The former wasn't really appealing to anyone other than hunters, while the latter was appealing to hunters, rogues, warriors, druids and shamans.


.....


Making stats worth different amounts of AP and crit to different classes was a nice way to direct itemization towards different classes and specs without slapping a "class: X" on everything. Homogenizing everyone's itemization desires is more efficient in terms of loot rot, in that everything that drops is likely to be wanted by everyone, but it makes for more boring itemization, more competition, and less thought being put into what items you want to loot. It's lazier item design - make everyone want the same things, so we only need to make one item instead of three.

I think the old way of doing things was a problem, not a good thing. The problem is that there HAD to be a hunter ring somewhere. And there HAD to be a more melee general one. This changed variety somewhat, but led to loot rot and the inverse: one class getting the shaft because 'their' item never drops. Also, it pollutes the loot tables. Everyone complained all day long with the AQ40 itemization being "feral". All hunters had the same optimal gear set just about with little options at all.

Yes, there was high demand for such "hunter" gear, because it was the only good option. But that is bad overall, as loot "niches" like this lead to CLASS homogenization (everyone of one class wearing basically the same thing).

The hunter change homogenized some things and I think that is a GOOD thing because when a class has itemization that is extremely unique it forces items to be made just for them. A 34 AGI ring is useful to only one class (pre 2.0), it might as well just say "class: hunter" on it. Rogues should get similar treatment so that STR/AGI/Crit items are useful to everyone, druid, rogue, warrior, and shaman alike. Overall, with fewer "niche" items there will be more general use items, which means each individual player has more choices and ability to be unique rather than pigeonholed into one optimal gear set. There can only be so much loot, I'd rather have 2 items useful to 2 classes with small differences in effectiveness for each, than having 2 items with each being basically only good for one class.

Note, things are not totally homogenized -- ferals will want more STR than AGI, rogues will want more AGI than STR. But an item optimal for one is not a bad item for the other. The same is true of rings between rogues/hunters today. One will favor %hit a lot more and the AP/AGI balance preference differs -- but one that is optimal for one class is no longer a poor choice for the other.

In short, it doesn't make sense to me to force rogues into AP itemization over STR 'just because'. The old reasons for doing this are long broken mechanics and scaling wise. Itemization wise I much prefer fewer "niche" item requirements. Hunters being rediculously AGI based was bad. Rogues avoiding STR is also bad when an equivalent item cost AP stat is there because it creates another "niche" of items that HAVE to drop somewhere, leading to item rot or scarcity of a variety of choices from the individual perspective.

I'm starting to sound like a broken record here, sorry for the wordiness and redundancy.

#40 Guest_alienangel_*

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Posted 19 January 2007 - 11:34 PM

...

Yes, there was high demand for such "hunter" gear, because it was the only good option. But that is bad overall, as loot "niches" like this lead to CLASS homogenization (everyone of one class wearing basically the same thing).

The hunter change homogenized some things and I think that is a GOOD thing because when a class has itemization that is extremely unique it forces items to be made just for them. A 34 AGI ring is useful to only one class (pre 2.0), it might as well just say "class: hunter" on it. Rogues should get similar treatment so that STR/AGI/Crit items are useful to everyone, druid, rogue, warrior, and shaman alike. Overall, with fewer "niche" items there will be more general use items, which means each individual player has more choices and ability to be unique rather than pigeonholed into one optimal gear set. There can only be so much loot, I'd rather have 2 items useful to 2 classes with small differences in effectiveness for each, than having 2 items with each being basically only good for one class.

...

In short, it doesn't make sense to me to force rogues into AP itemization over STR 'just because'. The old reasons for doing this are long broken mechanics and scaling wise. Itemization wise I much prefer fewer "niche" item requirements. Hunters being rediculously AGI based was bad. Rogues avoiding STR is also bad when an equivalent item cost AP stat is there because it creates another "niche" of items that HAVE to drop somewhere, leading to item rot or scarcity of a variety of choices from the individual perspective.

Well if you think having items be desirable to everyone is a good thing, wouldn't rogues getting double AP from STR make the situation worse? If a future Band of Unnatural Forces has STR on it instead of AP, it becomes more desirable for rogues, druids and warriors, but completely useless for hunters. As it stands, STR being put on items instead of AP already leads to annoying loot niches with items being tailored to specific classes - e.g. the number of 2H weapons with great gobs of STR on them.

Making STR a desirable stat for another class just increases the pressure to put STR on more items. Hunters are the only AP class that doesn't benefit from STR, so they'd still need more itemization made specifically for them. But if these additional items don't have class restrictions on them, they're also excellent for other classes since they have AP instead of the half-dose of AGI they'd have before to make them more desirable to hunters than to others. They can't put a double dose of AGI on them for hunters since hunters get Crit from AGI and they don't want that much crit off the item. The problem gets worse from my point of view instead of better.




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