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Cataclysm Hunter Changes


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#41 MizarAlcor

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 01:47 AM

Regarding the revamped Rapid Recup talent, I'm quite interested in the second part of the talent. Basically, by proccing Rapid Killing part of the talent (not just during grinding, but also adds-killing during boss fights), you can potentially double the focus return of the talent. Nowadays it does return mana, but with the "infinity" of mana compared to focus, it is not usually something that a hunter should aggressively pursue (saving an instant to KB adds, etc). With the advent of limited resource system, I can foresee killing-blow battles for min-maxing DPS even in raid situation.

As for the Launcher skill, being off-GCD actually brings out the potential of using it every cooldown during boss fights, basically bringing its usage close to how rogues use saronite bombs these days.

I guess it could be used in PvP after the start against a caster (immune to his casts), but then you risk losing camo to AoE or something. It is mainly for PvE.


I imagine Camo is still somewhat useful in PVP as poor man's Invisibility and spell interrupt. However, with Cata PVP environment filled with hasted and prolonged DoT s flung around, this usage is probably a little limited.

#42 Grogzor

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 02:03 AM

I am thinking that the Ability Trap Launcher is off the GCD meaning you can macro it to your abilities, but the actual trap would probably use the GCD wouldn't it?

#43 Ketari

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 02:10 AM

No comments on Rapid Fire? Hm.

Well let me start it then.
Haste is obviously going to boost our focusregen, the big question is if ranged Haste also boost it.


I'm confused by what you mean. Blizz have made it plain that Haste has one function for Hunters, boosting focus regen. Cast speed increase is only for mana users.

#44 KraxisSingular

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 02:43 AM

I'm confused by what you mean. Blizz have made it plain that Haste has one function for Hunters, boosting focus regen. Cast speed increase is only for mana users.


They have not mentioned anything about removing Haste affecting our casts. Not as far as I know of. In fact they could easily mean that Haste causes faster Steady casts hence faster focusregeneration. Now I doubt the latter, since that would be a pretty poor return.
In any case Ranged Haste is different from normal Haste, and there is nothing to say that it will act in the same way. Especially since it already doesn't work with our only ability that really benefits well from Haste, Volley. Ranged Haste exists in only 4 forms, Rapid Fire, Imp Aspect of the Hawk, passive 15% (formerly quiver) and Serpent's Swiftness. And it works off the Rating system and only with percentages.

@MizarAlcor, I didn't mean Camo, it is obviously best in PvP compared ot PvE, but the BM talent Careful Aim that increases the casttime of Steady/Cobra Shot and increases the damage.

[EDIT] Well Bloodlust also adds Ranged Haste, but since it adds Melee and Spell Haste too it feels like 40% worth of Haste Rating.

#45 MizarAlcor

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 02:46 AM

I am thinking that the Ability Trap Launcher is off the GCD meaning you can macro it to your abilities, but the actual trap would probably use the GCD wouldn't it?


Ah yeah, that's probably true. As mentioned earlier, I hope they do something regarding the CD difference between the Launcher and the trap itself, assuming they don't change trap's CD. Otherwise, there is a potential that the Launcher CD is triggered while the trap is still on CD, unless they modifier macros are used.

#46 MetallicaRulez0

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 02:47 AM

I'm confused by what you mean. Blizz have made it plain that Haste has one function for Hunters, boosting focus regen. Cast speed increase is only for mana users.


Not exactly true. Haste will still maintain it's current functionality of increasing ranged attack speed and the cast speed of Steady Shot, Volley, and various pet-related abilities (Revive, etc.).

I imagine the Focus regen increase will have to be very minimal from Haste, or I can see it quickly becoming the next pre-nerf Armor Penetration. This is all speculation obviously, but if we're going to be as Focus-limited as I think we are, Haste looks like an extremely attractive stat in Cataclysm.

#47 Antiganon

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 04:15 AM

Ah yeah, that's probably true. As mentioned earlier, I hope they do something regarding the CD difference between the Launcher and the trap itself, assuming they don't change trap's CD. Otherwise, there is a potential that the Launcher CD is triggered while the trap is still on CD, unless they modifier macros are used.


I imagine that the Trap Launcher CD will work similarly to how the Misdirect CD works now:

Adreaver casts Trap Launcher
Adreaver gains buff "Launch Trap"
...
...
...
...
Adreaver casts Frost Trap
"Launch Trap" fades from Adreaver

And then after that sequence, the CD would begin. Also like Misdirect, I believe the buff will fall off after a certain amount of time, probably 30sec, and the cooldown would begin then.

#48 Namarus

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 05:00 AM

Viper Sting will now restore 9 Focus every 3 seconds.


So this begs the question will this just work on all mobs? If so on multi-target fights, it might be worthwhile using. If the interaction between chimera+viper still works as currently this could be a decent focus regen tool. However it's overall focus cost would have to be taken into account. Will it still drain mana?

The much bigger stables, are a very interesting option, and appealing to me. About the only thing, now a hunter would be a jack of all trades raid buffer. "Missing a buff? Oh I'll bring a pet that does that."

Hunter vs. Wild increases the hunter’s Focus generation when his or her pet is snared, stunned, or rooted.


I'm a little confused over the point of this talent. Maybe a PvP talent, but really who bothers wasting GCDs snaring, stunning or even rooting a pet, when you can just use those same GCDs to kill it. Especially if they know doing anything else is going to benefit the hunter.

Stings and other periodic effects will now benefit from haste and critical strike ratings.


Definitely a welcome change here. The haste will improve chimera shot - serpent damage significantly.

In terms of rotations the only spec that is going to have an interesting rotation is going to be SV.With LNL & thrill of the hunt, SV rotations will actually be decently challenging. All the others you could more than likely just /castsequence and afk a fight. Unless they come up with some sort of mechanic to make hunters in other specs actually do some sort of rotation.

#49 Guest_alienangel_*

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 05:33 AM

Definitely a welcome change here. The haste will improve chimera shot - serpent damage significantly.


Good lord, I hadn't even thought of the additional ticks from haste on a serpent sting increasing chimera-serpent damage. Depending on how well dots scale with haste, that's another good boost from haste.

#50 MizarAlcor

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 05:54 AM

The much bigger stables, are a very interesting option, and appealing to me. About the only thing, now a hunter would be a jack of all trades raid buffer. "Missing a buff? Oh I'll bring a pet that does that."


Probably daydreaming here, but a pet which can bring mini-heroism is certainly very welcome. :P

In terms of rotations the only spec that is going to have an interesting rotation is going to be SV.With LNL & thrill of the hunt, SV rotations will actually be decently challenging. All the others you could more than likely just /castsequence and afk a fight. Unless they come up with some sort of mechanic to make hunters in other specs actually do some sort of rotation.


With the massive revamp to fury warrior's mechanics (or warriors in general) and also a promise to revamp Rets, MM and BM will potentially take the cake as the most brainless PVE rotation/DPS priority system among the DPS class. Probably only slightly abovemages, which we will know in a few hours.

#51 Grogzor

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 06:07 AM

Probably daydreaming here, but a pet which can bring mini-heroism is certainly very welcome. :P



With the massive revamp to fury warrior's mechanics (or warriors in general) and also a promise to revamp Rets, MM and BM will potentially take the cake as the most brainless PVE rotation/DPS priority system among the DPS class. Probably only slightly abovemages, which we will know in a few hours.


Its kind of hard to say whether or not something is going to be brainless with the lack of information we have at the moment. For all you know, they might give us a weird talent that for some of the time during combat its advantageous to have serpent sting up and other parts of the same fight to put up viper sting. Or buffs that proc that make us change up our priority. Something akin to making Chimera Shot more attractive this time instead of Aimed shot for whatever reason. Nothing says that we can't have a dynamic priority system, we will just have to wait and see.

#52 Keldin

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 08:34 AM

Some clarifications have been added to the preview, this part is probably the most important of things to come -

Originally posted by Ghostcrawler
In general, the basic rotations of all three hunters work okay on live today. With focus you might hit moments where you don't need to Steady at all, and you'll never run dry again for long periods of time like you might with mana.


This quote does hint that they do not want to change our priority list too much. Steady (and Cobra) will become the button to push when you feel dry of focus. But what will happen to the cooldowns of the other shots? That is the biggest question right now and we can't go beyond that.

#53 Shadowzuka

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 01:48 PM

Does anyone else feel that steady shot will be replaced with Cobra shot once we're under way in the expansion? Given that ArPen is really only a secondary stat for Marks hunters, i have a feeling that since it's going to remain static (since it's not gonna be modified by the Mastery Stat, but how many talent points you have in the MM tree), BM has talents and SV has the mastery stat (well, buffs all elemental damage) for it, looks like it's gonna be our filler shot in our downtime, unless it scales terribly for not talented hunters.


Overall, the changes are up in the air. The benefit of haste is nice now (no more passing those pieces), especially since it will be hasting Serpent, giving Chimera a boost. The current numbers for focus usage seem far too much and I'm sure they'll be going revisions, but can't say I'm too excited at the moment..

@Namarus - The Hunter Vs Wild Change will be useful vs a DK or mage, where they tend to desecrate/frost nova with the pet near you, not to mention mage's lv 85 ability. It would make a staple PvP talent provided it's low enough in the tree, and may have some PvE applications as well (any snaring, rooting type bosses that may be introduced).

If they bother to revamp immolation trap so it doesn't suck as much as it does now, it might be a worthwhile dps addition, given that it can crit and haste will increase ticks with the trap launcher, although they haven't said anything about focus costs for traps. Obviously Explosive Trap would work better with multiple targets.

#54 Ketari

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 04:08 PM

This quote does hint that they do not want to change our priority list too much.


I can't see how they hope to do this, unless they are expecting focus to be almost a non-issue. It definitely does indicate they're keeping ability cool downs, of course...

Shadowzuka - If cobra gets the bonus from SV elemental damage, I'd imagine so for them...for MM though? Hard to tell without numbers.

#55 KraxisSingular

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 04:27 PM

I don't remember now, but did we only get the mastery bonusses from our main tree? Or was it only the third stat that was exclusive? If the latter then I can easily see MM Hunters going 51 MM and 25 in Survival and going for Cobra Shot instead of Steady. Though, if Piercing Shots remains in some form and applies to Steady but not Cobra, well then it becomes very complex.

With Mages gaining Bloodlust, for some reason I doubt our pets will provide one, though I guess a 20% raidbuff would be fair. We are not going to get every single important buff/debuff for our pets, I just think they don't want that, and they have continually downplayed Bloodlust compared to what the playerbase thinks.

It is odd that Chimera Serpent only got mentioned this late. I thought about it in my initial comments but I kept adding other point and forgot. But indeed, Haste is going to be huge for that. Haste should scale just as well as any other ability. With the same percentage tick increases as other DoTs. So depending on how often we can throw out Chimera Shot (increases the value of Serpent Sting by an immense amount for every second we can shoot it earlier), Haste could potentially become top stat. Provided that Chimera Shot still grants 40% Serpent Sting damage. The potential is downright wild. Haste provides (given only what we know now) faster shots, more focus, more Serpent Sting damage and provided no cooldown or a considerably smaller cooldown on Chimera Shot, more frequent Chimera Shots and thus more frequent Chimera Serpent. In a sense Serpent Sting doubledips on Haste.

Hm, the more I think about that, the more I think Chimera Shot will not stay as it is (or perhaps exactly as it is, with a 10 second cooldown).

If traps and the Trap Launcher becomes 0 focus, then it becomes a calculation of, Immolation Trap dmg > (Steady/Cobra + focusgain) - loss of cast beyond GCD (either 1 or 1.5 seconds). That should be easy to figure out once we have the numbers. Obviously every Hunter should have the trap macro ready for movements or other non-cast situations (though I can appreciate the issue of running and using a groundtargeting ability at the same time, at least if running at an angle or away from the target).

#56 Starwind

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 05:09 PM

@ Kraxis, in the Mastery System Preview a response from Eyonix (RIP) mentions that you would only receive passive bonuses from your major tree. He even used an example that seems to indicate that heavily splitting talents between trees could lead to less benefit from passive bonuses.

3) Assume you only get the passive bonuses for the tree in which you’ve spent the most points, and there is a ceiling per tree (which could be something like 51-55 talent points). If you spend more points than that in a tree you still get the benefits of the talent. If you spend points in another tree, you are benefiting from those talents instead. Unless you try to make say a 40 / 36 / 0 build, you shouldn’t be losing passive bonuses.


Did anyone else notice the lack of Kill Shot in the focus cost example section of the preview? Hopefully this was a simple oversight. I understand that the move to focus may require tuning damage for shots (some? all?) in order to balance focus regen and the way we do damage (less bursty, more sustained) but I for one will sorely miss an execute in both PvE and PvP if Kill Shot is removed.

#57 Namarus

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 08:43 PM

Hm, the more I think about that, the more I think Chimera Shot will not stay as it is (or perhaps exactly as it is, with a 10 second cooldown).


If they put cooldowns on abilities it will completely devalue haste, and as a result hunters would again get a haste soft cap. If someone were you cast two chimera shots, that would deplete their focus considerably. You would then wait something like 3-4.5s to cast another chimera shot. If things work as they have stated.

One thing I was pondering was if haste will increase just the flat focus regen rate, or if it will affect steady/cobra regen? Which it probably will since haste will lower the cast time for those abilities, but eventually there will be a cap in haste obtained there, which would be the GCD limit. I also can't see haste rating boosting focus regen more than a couple percentage points. So probably at most hunter's could expect maybe a 50% increase to their focus regen, but definately nothing close to 100%.

So really i do not think there are going to be any issues with excessive focus all round.

#58 Grogzor

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 09:11 PM

Has anyone else noticed that if Steady/Cobra Shot give 9 focus back per shot yet it increases our Focus Regen from 6-12 Focus per second, that would mean that their normal casting speed is 1.5 seconds. But that is contrary to what GC said in that BM hunters would get a way to reduce Cobra Shot down to 1.5 second cast and right now, steady shot is a 2 second cast.

So in reality, the preview in itself is confused. But I am thinking we will definitely end up getting a 1 second global cooldown with the 1.5 second Cobra Shot for BM + the amount of haste we will be stacking + BM getting haste as one of their talent tree bonuses (which I can see replacing Serpent's Swiftness).

#59 MizarAlcor

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 09:30 PM

I don't remember now, but did we only get the mastery bonusses from our main tree? Or was it only the third stat that was exclusive? If the latter then I can easily see MM Hunters going 51 MM and 25 in Survival and going for Cobra Shot instead of Steady. Though, if Piercing Shots remains in some form and applies to Steady but not Cobra, well then it becomes very complex.


Exactly. We have seen even in Wotlk how certain talents can alter the decision of using certain shots over the other. For example, we now have a situation where at lower gear level (and thus lower ArP), the effects of Piercing Shots and Improved SS talents can help a hunter to determine whether to forgo Arcane Shot for a Steady Shot. Also, how in SV only a single talent (Sniper Training) becomes the main reason of forgoing Multi Shot for an Aimed Shot. I figure the same situation can happen in Cata for the Steady Shot vs. Cobra Shot usage. Two or even a single appealing talent placed in MM and/or SV trees can skew the decision between using a Steady or a Cobra, depending on which shot Blizzard intends us to use, for MM and SV respectively.

I just think they don't want that, and they have continually downplayed Bloodlust compared to what the playerbase thinks.


With how the value of haste is going to be exponentially elevated in the expansion for every single class including hunters, it is probably going to be even more important than what it is now. I just hope that haste won't be the new armor penetration.

If they put cooldowns on abilities it will completely devalue haste, and as a result hunters would again get a haste soft cap. If someone were you cast two chimera shots, that would deplete their focus considerably. You would then wait something like 3-4.5s to cast another chimera shot. If things work as they have stated.


We can see a crude analogy of this situation from our soon would-be "energy" using neighbors, the rogues and DKs :

Rogues don't have cooldowns on any of their main PVE rotation skills, and as such we can see that they essentially have no reasonably attainable haste cap. The only "haste cap" they have is when they can pool and proc energy generation faster than they can spend it in their next GCD. With 1.0 GCD skills, this value has to be quite astronomical.

DKs also don't have any cooldown on any of their main PVE rotation skills, technically speaking. A large majority of those skills however, utilize rune cooldowns. We can essentially say that the rune cooldown is the "effective cooldown" of those skills, meaning that in normal situation (no special procs etc) even though those skills are not on cooldown, you can't use them unless the needed runes have finished their cooldowns. As such, most of the time we can see that DKs PVE rotation are limited by their rune CD, not by their runic power availability. This exact same situation would be what is going to happen if most of our PVE rotation skills are placed on cooldown. We are essentially not going to be limited by the focus regen anymore, creating a new haste cap for our focus regen, and defeating Blizzard's very purpose of overhauling our resource system.

#60 Sorronn

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 09:59 PM

We can see a crude analogy of this situation from our soon would-be "energy" using neighbors, the rogues and DKs :

Rogues don't have cooldowns on any of their main PVE rotation skills, and as such we can see that they essentially have no reasonably attainable haste cap. The only "haste cap" they have is when they can pool and proc energy generation faster than they can spend it in their next GCD. With 1.0 GCD skills, this value has to be quite astronomical.

DKs also don't have any cooldown on any of their main PVE rotation skills, technically speaking. A large majority of those skills however, utilize rune cooldowns. We can essentially say that the rune cooldown is the "effective cooldown" of those skills, meaning that in normal situation (no special procs etc) even though those skills are not on cooldown, you can't use them unless the needed runes have finished their cooldowns. As such, most of the time we can see that DKs PVE rotation are limited by their rune CD, not by their runic power availability. This exact same situation would be what is going to happen if most of our PVE rotation skills are placed on cooldown. We are essentially not going to be limited by the focus regen anymore, creating a new haste cap for our focus regen, and defeating Blizzard's very purpose of overhauling our resource system.


I agree. I've thought about this and there are only two ways to keep an interesting priority queue for hunters that I can see:

1. Keep cooldowns, which as you noted, defeats the entire purpose of the rewrite.
2. Give hunters interlocking skills which in addition to base damage have over time effects.

One thing that keeps rogues in interesting rotations is over time effects. Slice and Dice, Rupture, etc., all cause the rogue to want to return to that ability when the timer expires or is close to expiring.

A similar mechanism could be given to hunters to cause skills to interlock. Then we're not cooldown limited but driven to adopt particular priorities in order to sustain our over time effects. Does anyone else see any other way to drive us into interesting rotations given the proposed mechanics? I am at a loss for thinking of any other way to do it.


One other thing I've thought about - with crowd control making a big comeback apparently, multishot gets devalued heavily and may not even be usable in many situations. I really wish they would simply move Aimed Shot to a skill which would then allow any of the talent trees to simply choose the optimal shot based on whether CC was active or not. Either that or Aimed Shot needs to move to the first level of the Marksman tree.




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