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Cataclysm Rogue Changes


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#21 frosiah

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 03:17 PM

If i am not mistaken the Recuperate skill was only going to be intended for low level rogues so they can level faster. I don't believe it will be available to use a level 80 for pvp nor pve.


I'm not aware of any spells or abilities that are prohibited at max level. It is cataclysm, so things are certain to change, but simply removing an ability that functions as a bandage after a certain level seems counter-intuitive to the "survivalism" they want to give rogues.

#22 sedrikk

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 03:17 PM

Is it just me or were there a bug in Vanilla with CP's being usable on dead mobs?
Or maybe this was back in the beta. That way you could always SnD on your way to the next mob while grinding.


It was a bug in vanilla. My initial thought was, oh how nice, they are reintroducing a "bug" they took away back in Molten Core.

#23 latchton

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 03:54 PM

Numbers aren't quite hammered out yet but it restores based on max health and the more combo points used the longer it lasts. While it's introduced as a low level ability it obviously scales with gear and base health upgrades (being based on max health and all) and be useful for more than just leveling.

That was posted by Bashiok clarifying the Recuperate ability.

#24 Brotherbear

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 03:56 PM

I have to admit that Smoke Bomb interests me solely because of the lack of restriction it places on friendly targets inside of it for targetting. Also it specifies that the enemy cannot target you with single target abilities, but the wording indicates they can still target you (so the Valkyrs could still pick up people in smoke) so that should be interesting.

PvP:
Specifically I'm thinking about arenas. Smoke bomb gives your ranged near total freedom to CC and dps the enemy team with impunity for at least a couple of globals. And Smoke bomb will destroy warriors (no charging or intercepting thanks) though I suspect their new Heroic Leap will be a work around. It's hard to imagine a 5v5 team that won't want a rogue.

PvE:
I'm really interested to see how this affects the PvE experience. Can bosses target people in smoke bomb for abilities? Just looking at ICC, we're talking about:
LK: Defile
Sindragosa: Ice Tombs, Unchained Magic
Putricide: Malleable Goo

With 3 rogues on the LK fight, you could, in theory, smoke bomb almost every defile cast. And depending on implementation (if the cast fails) you could actually trivialize the mechanic by removind defile entirely from phase 2.
Now admitedly the LK fight will be pretty meaningless at level 85, but we can safely assume "the boss casts a spell at person X" will be a mechanic that will continue to exist in the expansion.

#25 Gunjin

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 04:33 PM

I don't think they force us to range weapon only. My interpreation is that FoK damage will be based off the ranged weapon no matter what type of weapon of equipped, however we will be able to poison our thrown weapon. This situation would point to FoK poisons only being able to proc if the weapon is a thrown and has a poison currently applied to it. This would lead to a situation where by we have a choice to apply three poisons for say crippling poison to slow the target with for a quick deadly throw using a previous example.


Ghostcrawler posted an update that seems to indicate that rogues will indeed go thrown weapon only:

We just want the ranged weapon to be more than a stat stick for rogues. Adding poisons to FoK is actually a pretty hefty buff. Yes, this means that bows and guns aren't of much interest to rogues (after leveling). But in this case we want Fan of KNIVES to be taken literally. :)


Seems odd that ranged weapon usage gets even more limited in scope, it's going to make for more loot table dilution. Bosses are going to have to drop an agi based thrown only for rogues, an agi based bow/gun/xbow only for hunters, and tank stat based ranged only for warriors.

#26 Macnaaria

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 04:37 PM

Is it just me or were there a bug in Vanilla with CP's being usable on dead mobs?
Or maybe this was back in the beta. That way you could always SnD on your way to the next mob while grinding....


It wasn't a bug as much as it was just the way it was. Any combo points left on a mob when dead were usable for quite a while. I used it strategically all the time when moving from mob to mob. It sucked when they "fixed" it.

#27 Bonestorm

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 04:46 PM

Ghostcrawler posted an update that seems to indicate that rogues will indeed go thrown weapon only:



Seems odd that ranged weapon usage gets even more limited in scope, it's going to make for more loot table dilution. Bosses are going to have to drop an agi based thrown only for rogues, an agi based bow/gun/xbow only for hunters, and tank stat based ranged only for warriors.


They'll probably continue to put most thrown weapons on vendors rather than clutter boss loot pools, warrior ranged stat sticks will probably go the same direction.

#28 darathis

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 04:51 PM

I'm not aware of any spells or abilities that are prohibited at max level. It is cataclysm, so things are certain to change, but simply removing an ability that functions as a bandage after a certain level seems counter-intuitive to the "survivalism" they want to give rogues.


i think it's going still be there at higher levels but the amount healed will be to small to make any diference.

#29 Istaril

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 05:21 PM

An explanation for Smoke Bomb:

If you target a camo hunter or a rogue using Smoke Bomb, you will get an error message saying something like "Target obscured." You can see them and target them, but can't use your attacks. Imagine they are behind a pillar or something. You can try and get off an AE near them or you can move to melee.


This will hopefully settle the debate here - and from a mechanistic perspective, makes a lot of sense. We can then assume that in pve it will function similarly, and not mess with threat/aggro at all - as suggested previously.

#30 Krowe

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 05:30 PM

i think it's going still be there at higher levels but the amount healed will be to small to make any diference.


It's going to be a % of health and will scale with level and gear, as per:

While it's introduced as a low level ability it obviously scales with gear and base health upgrades (being based on max health and all) and be useful for more than just leveling.



#31 Sugam

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 05:55 PM

But will Recuperate be dispelled by shamans and priests or even stolen by mages?

#32 Grimmlokk

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 05:59 PM

But will Recuperate be dispelled by shamans and priests or even stolen by mages?


I'd assume it will work the same as War/Druid frenzied regen things and be considered a physical ability. So no dispell/steal.

#33 Zulkeir

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 06:32 PM

For recuperate, since its "intended" for leveling, they may make it simply an out of combat ability so we don't get to dump CP into it all the time. Just something to do with left over CP after combat, rather than a rolling hot to continuously apply during a fight.

#34 saedo

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 06:39 PM

It's likely similar to Gift of the Naaru, but self only. More for less downtime when soloing, and maybe a situational help with survivability thing.

#35 Tinwhisker

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 06:45 PM

If you target a camo hunter or a rogue using Smoke Bomb, you will get an error message saying something like "Target obscured." You can see them and target them, but can't use your attacks. Imagine they are behind a pillar or something. You can try and get off an AE near them or you can move to melee.


What about missiles in flight? If a priest starts channeling something like mindflay or a mage just cast Pyro or any number of things and then they use the ability, what happens?

Did hunters just get their own broken version of Vanish? Did rogues get another Vanish that other players get to view first hand and complain about being broken (Smoke Bomb)?

#36 saedo

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 07:04 PM

What about missiles in flight? If a priest starts channeling something like mindflay or a mage just cast Pyro or any number of things and then they use the ability, what happens?



If it's like the Line of Sight mechanic they want, then anything in flight will still hit. These currently go through walls still as you break LoS with them.

#37 liftir

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 07:34 PM

Is it me or is anyone else seeing discrepancies between some of the intended Rogue changes and the goals that Blizzard have made for Cataclysm? Blizzard has stated that they want to get rid of boring passive talents/abilities like Mace Specialization and Close Quarters Combat. Ok, that sounds fine. But for rogues it seems that they are just moving these boring passive bonuses to our Mastery instead.


Assassination
* Melee damage
* Melee critical damage
* Poison damage

Combat
* Melee damage
* Melee Haste
* Harder-hitting combo-point generators
Subtlety

* Melee damage
* Armor Penetration
* Harder-hitting finishers

Every single one of these mastery bonuses is passive and frankly, uninteresting. In Cataclysm my Sinister Strikes are going to hit harder as a mastery bonus? Fun, too bad I have 3 talents in Combat tree that already do that. Let's compare our 3rd tier Mastery bonus to some other classes:

Death Knight - Blood
Healing Absorption: When you heal yourself, you'll receive an additional effect that absorbs incoming damage.

Warrior - Arms (Similar Mastery Bonus for Marksmanship Hunters and Elemental Shamans)
Bonus Swing: This is similar to the Sword Specialization talent that is currently in the game, but Bonus Swing will work on all attacks and with all weapons. You have a chance to proc a free, instant weapon swing that hits for 50% damage.

Priest - Shadow
Shadow Orbs: Casting spells grants a chance for Shadow Orbs to be created that fly around you and increase your shadow damage. This will help lower-level characters feel more like "Shadow priests" before they obtain Shadowform.

I realize that this is just a preview and at that, one that was sparse on details. But it seems to me like we are getting the same talents we already have, but recycled into a new form called Mastery. Perhaps Blizzard intends to change our talent trees dramatically so that the interesting new abilities and mechanics will come in the form of talents rather then Mastery bonuses. It's all just speculation on my part. The information Blizzard has given us is more than likely to change greatly by the time Cataclysm comes out. Atleast, that's what I'm hoping for.

#38 Arnath

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 07:38 PM

Given this LoS explanation of Smoke Bomb, if you're inside the AoE, can you use ranged attacks on things that are outside (e.g., can you kite ranged attackers in and out)?

#39 Skarzag

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 07:45 PM

Is it me or is anyone else seeing discrepancies between some of the intended Rogue changes and the goals that Blizzard have made for Cataclysm? [ . . . ]


That was exactly the purpose. To take the uninteresting talents out of the trees and turn them in to mastery bonuses to allow them to add interesting talents.

#40 liftir

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 07:51 PM

Yes I understand that. Blizzard has also said that the Mastery system will be put in place to give them another easy knob to use for tuning trees better. So I can understand the first two Mastery bonuses of a tree to be things like increased Melee Damage and increased Melee Attack speed, because those are both stats which are easily used to change a tree's performance.

I was pointing out the discrepancy between our third tier Mastery bonuses and others. Because at this point in time, it looks like we are going to have two different types of talent trees. One type that has boring Mastery bonuses but interesting talents and another that has interesting Mastery bonuses but boring talents. This may not be (and probably isn't) what Blizzard is going for but that's what it looks like at the moment.




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