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Cataclysm Warrior Changes


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#41 Kahmos

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 08:58 AM

I think there will be more viability with hybrid spec's and basic weapons, because originally, warriors only had 1 non talented instant strike "Whirlwind" and you had to spec into mortal strike or bloodthirst to get the second instant strike. (or devastate/shieldslam respectively)

However, in Cataclysm, blue posts suggest our on next hit attacks will become instant strikes. So if you make that change to our current abilities alone, they would definitely have to be changed further, heres why:

Any spec regardless of talents you could use a slow weapon (Specifically a 2 hander) and instead of using the old 30 rage (or 25 rage now) instant strikes that have a cooldown (4 or 5 seconds now ms/bt) for technically less rage (heroic strike could hover at 10 rage if your using a 1 hander)

Again, if your using an instant strike, in lets say, a prot build, with glyphed heroic strike, and 3 incite talented, your running around with a cheep high crit chance instant striking 2 hander, with the capabilities of a prot warrior (minus the shield spells ofcourse) such as the high revenge damage/vengeance, the stun, the aoe stun. This spec might be a bad example, but again, how could you compare something like a no cooldown heroic strike versus Mortal strike? or a no CD cleave in the right situation.

Seeing this, I think theyre going to have to give heroic strike and cleave cooldowns or ms/bt might not necessarily be used as the primary attacks in a single target pve fight.

I could imagine a 2h fury hybrid spec for that using heroic strikes.

Landsoul also talks about how rage generation is going to be completely different with the on-next-hit attacks that would normally prevent our mainhand from generating rage, well now we will have ALOT more to use, but in hindsight, alot less yellow damage coming out~ and while statistically 2 two handers are better than one, will blizzard stay true to that active fun talent tree changes they said they were making? or will there be statistical dps advantages in using a hybrid build like I suggested* (probably not like I suggested)

I will also say, Heroic strike as an instant will make leveling a warrior alot easier and more fun to people.

Also I wanted to point out, about Inner rage~

If your receiving a 50% increase on rage generation suddenly, and your using (Specifically mind you) heroic strike* as your main attack, and your playing a TG warrior. You will instead of spending 30 rage, 45 rage, which will bring you down in 2 gcd's 90 rage, however, the slowest weapons for TG are 3.6, and in fury* you almost always have flurry up, so even without haste, your swinging at 2x 3.0 speed weapons for rage, effectively your getting a 2handers swing for rage every 1.5 seconds, which happens to be how long it takes to use a GCD, now over 3 seconds of 2 heroic strikes, but you can still cast heroic strike at 15 rage (because of inner rage)

So all in all, I dont see it as an issue, as long as we have flurry, and the mainhand generating rage. (As it looks to be right now)'

Never mind that our crits will generate 10 rage and we'll be ticking for anger management, and our heroic strikes will cost 3 rage less... so 7 rage at minimum if EVERYTHING else was the same, which it wont!

#42 Sadomal

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 08:08 PM

With Inner Rage I would think that we would become rage starved very easily. As arms you would have to be careful when you rage cap as Mortal Strike will now take almost half your rage away! As well as the scaling of heroic strike from 10-30 rage would mean that a single heroic strike could cost 45 rage.

On strike rage generation would mean having a fast off hand would be great for rage generation, even with Titan grip weapon swapping your off hand to gain rage might be an option. Fast weapons might be best for tanking when your gear out weighs an instance.

Wearing dps gear for heroics might be a must soon if we only gain % rage vs. our health.

#43 Purelybetter

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 12:02 AM

For rage generation, we're still going to most likely used slow MH, but out OH will come down to DPS first, then stats. They said that slower weapons will generate more rage, due to hitting less. With WW most likely being removed from our rotation, we won't care about how hard our off-hand hits. This is fury of course.

As for Arms, you guys will most likely be unchanged in this department.

As for inner rage, it really can't be judged. We don't know how much rage we'll have. We don't know how long it will last. We don't know if 50% increased cost will stay. If for some reason we're hitting 100 rage, then it means we have a lot rage generation while spamming our abilities and means if the buff lasts say 5 seconds, we'll be able to use 3-4 abilities which should bring us back down to 20ish rage, which will start the cycle again. If we're not hitting 100 rage normally, Blizzard screwed us over.

Right now we should be discussing the potential for moves and what mechanics we'll see. Saying Inner Rage will rage starve us is impossible. Blizzard won't let that happen, the current numbers are just to make us happy. Look at Heroic Leap, it was raged over(and still is) because it's numbers weren't released so we assumed weak damage.

#44 Powgout

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 02:15 AM

Currently Heroic Strike costs us more than the 12 rage that it does. It takes up an attack that could scale anywhere from 15-40 rage so the new Heroic strike thing is actually probably going to be very useful. The forums has stated that WW is going to be replaced, so therefore Fury will more than likely be the same as far as a rotation goes only WW is replaced with that new ability. We are going to add Gushing wounds to our rotation at some point because at 3 stacks it is stronger than a rend. It takes 10 rage, but for people who don't want to be at 100 it will be a very useful tool. The new sunder will be used for when everything else is on CD and HS isn't necessary at the time. Imho I think that fury will be the same, if not better than it was before. Arp is going to be replaced with Haste. Rage is going to be our factor for dpsing, not our rotation.

Blizzard mentioned bringing back 1 handed duelling. I personally don't think this is going to work because rage gain isn't based on damage but whether your hit is a crit or not.

As far as Warrior tanking goes, I don't think there will be too much of a difference. I could be very wrong, but it looks like Vengeance and the new DpS doesn't affect tanks threat thing ( or what I got out of it ) is only going to help out.

As far as arms looks, it's looking more and more like a pvp spec over raid dps. I personally haven't seen many Leet arms dps in raids so my opinion here doesn't really matter.

This Heroic leap ability sounds like it possibly could fit into the fury rotation as a first attack. It sounds like it will do a pretty big thing of damage, therefore keeping us a very good burst dps.

Lastly the 100 rage ability, inner rage, will more than likely not be that bad either. If it's doing 15% more damage for 2x the rage for only a few seconds, our improved shouts will help us not starve. We already have bloodrage and berserker rage to help us out with that. I have a good feeling that the rage building abilities will have their Cooldowns decreased.

#45 Montegomery

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 04:23 AM

...

This Heroic leap ability sounds like it possibly could fit into the fury rotation as a first attack. It sounds like it will do a pretty big thing of damage, therefore keeping us a very good burst dps.

...


Heroic Leap has obvious PvP and solo content applications (the latter being why some would like to see it sooner than 85), but for raiding its current form isn't particularly useful for Fury beyond trash.

It's not really a part of the "rotation" if the ability can only be used once a fight at the very beginning. Combat in boss fights tends to start the very moment after the pull, meaning you have a very small window in which to use this and avoid either preempting the tank/misdirect and pull aggro or entering combat and missing your chance. Moreover, aiming to use Heroic Leap in its current form prevents any concept of hoarding rage before a pull due to stance dancing.

Heroic Leap is essentially a non-factor for Fury DPS unless its restrictions change.

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#46 Powgout

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 04:39 AM

Guess I really didn't think about that. I was going by possibly not costing rage. That isn't probable though I suppose. It would more than likely get a dps killed in a fight the way it is due to TC being a lot of threat itself.

#47 XCalibreX

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 10:36 AM

Hi all, I want to make a comment about the whirlwind change, and if it's going to appear in our future action bar. With the new Whirlwind we will be able to only hit each mob for 50% damage (hit only once per whirlwind), but hit unlimited number of mobs. So let’s examine this new change in ability very closely:

Let’s say you have weapon dealing max damage of 978 ( + 104%) on basic damage for main hand, and the same weapon for offhand dealing a max weapon damage of 463( + 104%). Let’s leave any bonuses out of equation as constants. Then if both weapons where to hit simultaneously you would get total of 1441 damage. If you were to whirlwind you would be doing 720.5 (50% of 1441 damage) damage to each mob.

Now let’s look at another ability that I know some fury warriors also have in their rotations namely cleave which does weapon + 222 damage. So it will work out if we were using same weapon as before, we get 1200 damage per mob (Mainhands 978 + 222 damage).

So in comparison cleave is better adding +-500 damage but cannot affect so much targets as whirlwind, but then again how big are the mob pulls of tanks. It’s not very often that I found myself in pulls larger than 6-7 or in boss fights which have a lot of adds which the fight depend on. So in essence and in my opinion whirlwind is an ability which is moving to the side line (Major Nerf). True pve raiders will not bother to swap abilities on their action bars or worry about what other people will say if they are not doing 10k dps on trash, they will only worry about dps on boss. Personally I will leave cleave on my action bar since "on the next attack" will be removed and if I'm ever faced with 6-7 mobs I would be cleaving for total of 7920 damage (1441 + 3 talents points improved cleave (+140% extra damage) ) on three mobs than whirlwind-ing 5043.5 damage total to all 7 mobs.

Please feel free to evaluate/criticize my comment I would like to know what you guys think and whether my reasoning is correct or not. Please also remember that we are commenting on things still in development so it might turn out that because of the talent tree that whirlwind is better.

#48 XCalibreX

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 11:23 AM

Sorry made couple of calculation errors in my last post

Improved Cleave is 140% on bonus damage ie. 222*140% which makes cleave attack (978 + 533) and total of 4532 on three targets which still ends up better than whirlwind on 6 targets.

#49 TherionSaysWhat

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 04:29 PM

It's today's apples being compared to oranges when the oranges are still seedlings. And not even big seedlings, more like "omg is that a seedling poking through the soil?" type seedlings.

You're crunching numbers with a priori assumptions (like even having a talent which boosts Cleave damage) about a system (the future Cataclysm warrior) which we have practically no actual information or data about. We can't safely assume that any of the things we know today will be exactly the same tomorrow. With Blizz constantly pointing out that they do not love the "boosts damage X%" style talents, it's not a far cry to consider Improved Cleave might move, get adjusted, disappear, or otherwise not function exactly as it does now. Nor are we certain that Whirlwind will be exactly as described in the preview come harvest... um, I mean, launch day.

It's reasonable to see the new Whirlwind as described in the preview in the same light as Fan of Knives or Swipe(Cat) in that it'll be a trash mob clearing tool. While Cleave might be used basically to fill an open GCD when a few mobs are hanging out around the boss in place of the new (and improved?) Heroic Strike. Both seem possible if not probable. Personally I get a strong sense that Blizzard really likes the idea of talents which are clearly to be used in certain circumstance with little to no ambiguity.

Again, it's not that I don't applaud wanting to work out the numbers. But let us all at least wait until we see the green of the leaves before we get ready to taste some juice?

#50 Casstor

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 08:46 PM

I think the issue is simply that Warriors are seem to be the "average" tank that encounters are balanced around. So in WoTLK all of the other tanks ended up with a copy of the swing reduction of thunderclap, the damage reducing bonus from defensive stance, etc. The fact that druids (for example) have fewer buttons to push than a warrior tank seems more like a knock on the druid design than a complaint about warrior balance to me.

The other class previews aren't out yet, but if history is any guide, I think they're going to try and push the other tanking classes to be more like warriors: DKs are getting a spell reflect-like ability and all of their tanking talents pushed into one tree, Paladin tanking probably will be about the same as it is now, and Druid tanks may get some sort of ranged silence ability (weak "Gag Order" maybe).

What I don't expect to see is a large amount of fiddling with Warrior tanking as it's pretty much the way Blizzard wants it to be in terms of having a large number of cool abilities with a core "rotation" that isn't too difficult to master. Most of the tweaking they've been doing is under the hood in order to solve Tank DPS and threat scaling issues.


I could be completely misinterpretting your post here, but it seems to me like tanking in general (and warrior and druid tanking specifically) is undergoing one of the biggest overhauls it has seen. For warriors, the HS change, the rage mechanic change, and the healer change alone already guaranteed that the way we'd gear and the way we'd play would be completely different. Add in vengeance, block changes, parry changes, and the nerf to the sunder debuff - and note that we have yet to see any new prot talents or abilities, and that this is only the first round of ability changes (for one, I doubt they're going to leave shield block as a flat 30% reduction for 10 seconds every 40), and I think it's safe to say that what we look like at 85 will be nothing like what we look like now.

Again, I might be misinterpretting what you meant here, as I have no doubt that they want to make the rotation straightforward but interesting, and they want each tank to have "cool" abilities, but I think that saying what blizzard is doing to warriors isn't more than "fiddling" is a bit disingenuous.

#51 ComMcNeil

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 06:53 AM

Lastly the 100 rage ability, inner rage, will more than likely not be that bad either. If it's doing 15% more damage for 2x the rage for only a few seconds, our improved shouts will help us not starve. We already have bloodrage and berserker rage to help us out with that. I have a good feeling that the rage building abilities will have their Cooldowns decreased.


The question is, is it better to have 15% more dmg for a few seconds and being then required to hit a rage generating button that may use 1 GCD, or just try to stay below 100 rage and not needing to use that CD?

On the other hand, personally, I am a friend of "reshouting" relativly often, just to be sure that the shouts are always up and dont drop in bad situations, so depending on how often the Inner Rage really "proccs", it may be a good reason for refreshing shouts. :D


Also, the Fury mastery:
Someone pointed out, that in PvE it may only be viable for Death Wish. Maybe we are forgetting Rampage. Before 3.3.3 it was a procc "Enrage" buff and could be consumed for example by Frenzied Regeneration.
Maybe the Fury Mastery also buffs the Rampage buff. Personally I would doubt that a raid wide buff would be made better by the gear of a single person, but it would be an interresting concept really.

#52 XCalibreX

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 07:27 AM

It's today's apples being compared to oranges when the oranges are still seedlings. And not even big seedlings, more like "omg is that a seedling poking through the soil?" type seedlings.

You're crunching numbers with a priori assumptions (like even having a talent which boosts Cleave damage) about a system (the future Cataclysm warrior) which we have practically no actual information or data about. We can't safely assume that any of the things we know today will be exactly the same tomorrow. With Blizz constantly pointing out that they do not love the "boosts damage X%" style talents, it's not a far cry to consider Improved Cleave might move, get adjusted, disappear, or otherwise not function exactly as it does now. Nor are we certain that Whirlwind will be exactly as described in the preview come harvest... um, I mean, launch day.

It's reasonable to see the new Whirlwind as described in the preview in the same light as Fan of Knives or Swipe(Cat) in that it'll be a trash mob clearing tool. While Cleave might be used basically to fill an open GCD when a few mobs are hanging out around the boss in place of the new (and improved?) Heroic Strike. Both seem possible if not probable. Personally I get a strong sense that Blizzard really likes the idea of talents which are clearly to be used in certain circumstance with little to no ambiguity.
Again, it's not that I don't applaud wanting to work out the numbers. But let us all at least wait until we see the green of the leaves before we get ready to taste some juice?


Like I stated in my first comment I know things are not set in stone yet, what am focusing on is the trail of thought bliz have for the new warrior, but the fan of knifes have brought it into new light. What I was focusing on is that cleave's currently have a high damage output vs what we know of the new whirlwind, other than changing the improve cleave talent to not work with % value I don't think they are going to remove it, its more likely to stay the same as it is as it is ability both Arms and Fury uses. What I want to bring to spotlight is the 50% damage reduction will make it less attractive ability in mobs of 6 or less, so they will either leave whirlwind as is currently posted and let it take back seat as they want new rotation for 85 or they will bump it with talents to increase the output, which I personally don't think is going to happen since it wouldn't make sense scaling down an ability only to let it be enhanced with talents and at 85 whirlwind talents would probably be a middle talent tree ability. Cleave might be a low talent tree ability but it scales very nicely in damage if you take into consideration new weapons will have higher damages and the "on the next attack" will disappear of it so it will become spammable add inner rage to the mix and you can see where I'm going.

It feels to me like they want to shorten the rotation for dps warriors cause there is already a lot of things for us to watch out for, recklessness, berserker rage, slam proc/execute, shouts, pummel on incoming casts, refresh sunder and still be aware of tactics/boss movement/facing. I foresee with the new changes heroic strike is going to become single target spam button, especially when you’re inner rage is active (as well as, they mention heroic strike not generating as much agro any more or talent which reduces it) and cleave as your multi target spam button. Every now and then Whirlwind if there's a lot of mobs.

Also remember unlimited aoe is not especially a good thing, chances are good that some mobs won't have agro/much agro on them and will all be hitting you when you go over the agro threshold. I would say that this, if bliz have intended it in this way is not bad thing because it prevents mobs running in all directions as in case of hunters and mages, and makes it easier for tanks to simply pick up, but I know for fact that dps warriors even with plate will be too soft to handle 5-6 mobs suddenly switching to him while there's already 4-5 on the tank, and healer will have tough time keeping up aswell, but I don't think they intent it in this way, and I feel too much aoe should result in death.

#53 Montegomery

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 01:41 PM

...

Also, the Fury mastery:
Someone pointed out, that in PvE it may only be viable for Death Wish. Maybe we are forgetting Rampage. Before 3.3.3 it was a procc "Enrage" buff and could be consumed for example by Frenzied Regeneration.
Maybe the Fury Mastery also buffs the Rampage buff. Personally I would doubt that a raid wide buff would be made better by the gear of a single person, but it would be an interresting concept really.


Ghostcrawler has said explicitly that talents which improve raid buffs are going away.

... We're also planning on getting rid of any talent that buffs a buff. Any buff that is earned solely by talent needs to have a selfish component thrown in so that you don't feel like you should respec if someone else with that buff comes along. ...


Beyond the obvious that Rampage is no longer an enrage effect, even if it once was, this makes clear that their philosophy is to avoid Totem of Wrath/Demonic Pact scenarios. It's effectively certain that our mastery will not affect Rampage.

It's likely we'll either see current enrage effects retooled to be more useful (Berserker Rage, Enrage), and/or the addition of new ones (Inner Rage?).

... you could very well have a concerto, but the closest the average listener gets to hearing it is the interpretation as put on by a group of small children with those little rainbow-coloured xylophones.


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#54 Eregond

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 01:55 PM

Beyond the obvious that Rampage is no longer an enrage effect, even if it once was, this makes clear that their philosophy is to avoid Totem of Wrath/Demonic Pact scenarios. It's effectively certain that our mastery will not affect Rampage.


While most likely correct, it's also stated that Rampage as a talent will be improved - all raid buff talents will have a selfish component so that the talent point isn't wasted simply because you are in a proper raid setup. I agree it's still a stretch to expect the improvement to be enrage-related, even if the current enrage mechanisms for a fury warrior are reworked. The discrepancy between Mastery benefits in PVE vs PVP can on the other hand be resolved to some extent simply by excluding Mastery as a stat from the pvp sets. It's a solution that has been employed before, exemplified by all pvp jewelry lacking Strength.

#55 Vargras

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 04:48 PM

While most likely correct, it's also stated that Rampage as a talent will be improved - all raid buff talents will have a selfish component so that the talent point isn't wasted simply because you are in a proper raid setup.


A prime example of this are the various Death Knight auras. Sure, you may have Abomination's Might or Icy Talons - but even though a single Enhancement shaman can cover both of those buffs, you still had incentive to spec into those talents because of passive effects. Blizzard later "fixed" this for Enhancement shamans by adding the passive expertise boost to their attack power aura, but other classes got left out in the cold.

To be honest, I'm not sure what Rampage might gain as far as the "selfish component" is concerned. I -would- say a potential strength modifier, but I really doubt Fury needs even more strength modifiers within the tree. However, seeing as how Blizzard stated that all such talents would be removed with Cata, the existing strength modifier talent might not even exist as of next expansion.

#56 mjball

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 04:58 PM

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#57 levk

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 05:49 PM

About Inner Rage - there's a few ways it can go given that their intention to balance it is not to make it something to avoid.

1) It could be a simple modifier that while you have 100 rage your specials cost more and do more damage so it's basically like a single charge buff. Which is how I think it's going to be. In this case it's inconsequential, I really don't think that it'll be worth it to poll rage for a single attack during normal rotation and it reflects their stated intention the best - just to make sure you don't feel like you're missing out on something when you hit full bar. This scenario does nothing to game feel.

2) It could be a buff with limited charges like recklessness. This would play out depending on how many charges are given. The fewer the number of charges the more it'll feel like the first scenario. The more charges it has the stricter rotation you will have to adhere to at any given gear level in order to keep the buff up. I feel the latter choice is the worst way to go.

3) It could be a timed buff. This will look like a clunky SnD rotation - you're going to make sure you always have the buff so when it's starting to run out you'll start doing more rage efficient attacks to get it back up. This could very well be interesting as it would add a dimension to the class which is good seeing how they're taking heroic strike away. This is also hard to balance against a wide range of gear since you still can gear for rage generation.

#58 Montegomery

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 06:01 PM

... However, seeing as how Blizzard stated that all such talents would be removed with Cata, the existing strength modifier talent might not even exist as of next expansion.


Talents like Rampage aren't going away. The talents which are disappearing are ones such as Commanding Presence, Imp Blessing of Might, or anything that differentiates buff strength.

On the subject of Inner Rage, it sounds like its current incarnation is a timed buff given the phrasing. It essentially looks to be the automated replacement for current Heroic Strike/Cleave mechanics, and as such it's likely to something we wish to activate as much as possible without affecting our rotation. Unless rage generation in Cataclysm is extremely low, I expect that activating Inner Rage will be an unavoidable occurrence in much of the post-entry level raid content.

If it is also an enrage effect, the interactions it might have with Enrage Intensity could be rotation defining. The most obvious effect Enrage Intensity could have would be to buff the damage component. If that turns out to be the case, it's not impossible that our rotation when we have less than X amount of Mastery could be to avoid capping rage save for huge RNG spikes, and past X intentionally capping rage becomes desirable.

At the very least, with Enrage Intensity increasing the rage gains from Bloodrage and Berserker Rage (and hopefully Improved Berserker Rage, which may be a more useful talent in Cataclysm), it will become easier and easier to cap our rage using these abilities as we obtain more Mastery from gear.

... you could very well have a concerto, but the closest the average listener gets to hearing it is the interpretation as put on by a group of small children with those little rainbow-coloured xylophones.


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#59 Vargras

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 08:40 PM

@ Darian

The talent in question is Improved Berserker Stance. My apologies for not clarifying that.

The end-result of Inner Rage is still very much up-in-the-air. It will either be an Enrage or just a static buff. Likewise, it will either have a time duration or have a rage threshold (at which point falling below said rage threshold automatically turns off the buff). I think we'll need to see a bit more about it before we can really see just what effect it will have on both tanks and DPS.

Take Heroic Leap, for example. After first seeing it, much of the community said it was nothing more than a glorified Charge + Thunder Clap macro. It wasn't until several blue posts later that we saw otherwise.

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 04:54 AM

Without heroic strike and the assumption that the dps didn't diminish, i think furor get more bursty. Could that be right? Heroic strike adds permanent damage to nearly every autoswing like a "little" dose of damage with icc gear everytime we strike with the mainhand. For a well geared warrior heroic strike is like a dot, which tick every ~1.5-2 seconds. This adds up to more than 1300 DPS for me in a full buffed raid scenario.
Wihout whirlwind in our Rotation what will close these two gaps? For a 8 second cycle 1300 dps is like an 10400 avg hit. Even if this damage of 10k+ is split in between the two one second free gcd's by the new heroic strike. Heroic strike become a hard strike through this assumption?
Out of this scenario what this 5k hit could do to arms or to prot abilitys? And did you think Blizz will clip to the additional threat since 5k plus another ~2600 initial threat could become a handicap for dps warrior if the "new" heroic strike used to quick at the start of a fight?




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