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Warlock Cataclysm Preview Discussion - READ THE FIRST POST


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#301 asakawa

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 10:15 AM

We're lacking the theorycrafting tools to really confirm this sort of thing but don't be so sure that mastery will be worth more than haste for Demo.
Demo pets do surprisingly little damage (especially in view of BM) so a boost to pet damage is quite narrow. It effects caster damage during Meta also but I'm sure it's not enough to bring it up as high as the other two specs.

However, assuming basically all your current gear has haste and something else on it, you won't be able to reforge to haste so the effect is likely to be the same.
I'm just suggesting that:
Hit > Int > Haste > Mastery > Crit
Might be what we look for.

#302 Warlocomotif

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 03:14 PM

Err last I did math on it, mastery was the worst stat for demo. You can find the math on the wow cata beta forums.
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#303 Jmickey

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 05:37 PM

Err last I did math on it, mastery was the worst stat for demo. You can find the math on the wow cata beta forums.


Yes, My numbers were wrong, apologies for that.

I actually did it right this time and came out with Haste slightly ahead of Int, atleast in my (mostly) 277 ICC gear and the spec I linked in my previous post. Making haste the most desirable stat.

Mastery still appears to be ever so slightly ahead of Crit at 80 though, from what i can tell. I could be wrong again though, as I am doing this at 4am.

Remember, this is strictly for 4.0.1 at level 80.

#304 Onorvele

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 12:10 AM

Yes, My numbers were wrong, apologies for that.

I actually did it right this time and came out with Haste slightly ahead of Int, atleast in my (mostly) 277 ICC gear and the spec I linked in my previous post. Making haste the most desirable stat.

Mastery still appears to be ever so slightly ahead of Crit at 80 though, from what i can tell. I could be wrong again though, as I am doing this at 4am.

Remember, this is strictly for 4.0.1 at level 80.


Glyphs of Immo and Incin both better than Glyph of FG? That's a surprise to me, but I guess Glyph of FG is no longer a straight +AP. I'll check out the math/sample runs.

Is gearing for mastery even going to be available in 4.0.1? Thought it was going to be specific to Cata itemization. I guess with reforging.

Personally I'd opt for 2/2 in Aura of Foreboding over 2/2 in Master Summoner - while the mana saved due to 100% reduction in demon cost will open up at least 1 GCD in the case a demon goes down, the root effect will keep mobs in AoE a bit longer. I fully expect some tanks to not enjoy the root, but recent blue posts have indicated that tanks in Cata are not expected to maintain full aggro on actual AoE packs - so a root and potential stun will help keep the party alive.
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#305 Jmickey

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 01:58 AM

Immolate is still our highest DPCT spell, so Immolate glyph makes sense.

From what I can tell, with haste no longer reducing the actual duration, and instead adding ticks, this makes haste pretty huge for Demo (As I said before, in my gear Haste comes above Intellect). More Immolate ticks = more Molten Core uptime. An Incinerate under the effect of Molten Core also does ~10% more damage than Soul Fire in execute, So when the patch goes live we will be breaking our Soul Fire spam to use Molten Core charges sub 25%.

This makes Incinerate come just under Shadow Bolt in overall damage (I think, as I said, I can't test this), and depending on <25% MC Procs, could even be No.1 on the meter. This is why Incinerate glyph beats FG Glyph.

The Spec selection was based off current content, not taking into account what we wil be doing in Cata. At the moment in ICC, RS and WotLK Heroics there really isn't any need for a root, obviously this may/will change when the expansion actually hits. In saying that though, my FG very rarely dies in current raiding content, so this really comes down to a personal preference.

#306 Talimar

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 05:06 AM

On beta, conflag no longer consumes immolate even though the tooltip says so. Tested with and without glyph.
I could swear it was consumed when I tried it 2 weeks ago.
Is this intended?

#307 krilz

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 07:22 AM

On beta, conflag no longer consumes immolate even though the tooltip says so. Tested with and without glyph.
I could swear it was consumed when I tried it 2 weeks ago.
Is this intended?

The wowhead-tooltip says nothing about it either. But then again, it still says 100% of Immolate's damage which isn't the case anymore so it could just be updated. Personally I think it's intended, because Conflagrate consuming Immolate was a very clunky mechanic, especially considering how much DPS Conflagrate does. Why should we be punished for using one of our most damaging spells? Besides, if Conflagrate would be consuming, then we would be right back at where we were at the start of WotLK with Fire and Brimstone being a two-edged sword.

On a completely different topic, I fooled around on the talent calculator over at MMO and I'm gonna give my first go at this current spec. The reasoning behind it is with so much talents in reach for Destruction which returns mana, Life Tap might not be used as frequently as before. Soul Leech according to the tooltip returns 4% mana instantly whenever hit (I'm assuming hit) by Chaos Bolt (which is rougly every 12 seconds) and Soul Fire (which is included whenever Empowered Imp procs) and Mana Feed returns 4% mana as well whenever the Imp crits. I have no idea if there's any hidden cooldown on these two though.

On a sidenote, here's a question for those in the beta: How often is shards used in practice? The choices seems very limited to PvP with utility uses rather than DPS.

#308 Saufsoldat

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 10:12 AM

@krilz: I'd drop the Nether Protection for Improved Searing Pain in your spec. We don't know for sure about threat but with Searing Pain getting a pretty big damage buff and then having an almost guaranteed crit I'd say it's worth it to use <50% boss health as long as your threat and Soul Shatter cooldown allow it.

#309 Gorthan

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 11:11 AM

Hi all,
I would like to point out an argument about talents distrubution.
I've seen some destro spec (for lvl 80) using doom and gloom or other demo talent rather than dark arts. Is that areal dps increase considering that every destro point spent grats +1,25% damage?

#310 dakalro

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 11:14 AM

You do not gain extra damage based on the amount of points you spend in a tree. That has been thrown out for a few months now, You only get the initial amount when you choose a tree and have to spend 31 points in it. All other points are FFA.

#311 Gorthan

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 12:48 PM

You do not gain extra damage based on the amount of points you spend in a tree. That has been thrown out for a few months now, You only get the initial amount when you choose a tree and have to spend 31 points in it. All other points are FFA.


My bad. Misread the tooltip.

#312 Mystearica

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 01:18 PM

Has there been any extensive testing with BoA after 4.0? It seems to get... for a lack of a better term, weird with haste.

LV80 Naked, no glyph - 4x 114, 4x 207, 4x 298
Lv80 Naked, Glyph of BoA - 4x 114, 4x 207, 4x 298, 2x 389

Lv80 1522 Haste, No glyph - 1x 759, 6x 659, 5x 759, 1x 861, 5x 1011
Lv80 1522 Haste, Glyph of BoA - 6x 659, 5x 759, 1x 861, 5x 1011, 1x 1162, 2x 1363

Lv80 1522 Haste, No Glyph, Eradication - 1x 659, 5x 608, 1x 659, 6x 759, 1x 861, 6x 1011
LV80 1522 Haste, Glyph of BoA, Eradication - 1x 759, 1x 659, 6x 608, 1x 659, 6x 759, 1x 861, 6x 1011, 1x 1162, 2x 1363

#313 Warlocomotif

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 02:29 PM

Me and Philoptic did about 4 or 5 hours worth of testing on BoA with haste. At the end of our tests we concluded that it was incredibly weird. Sometimes we'd get anextra small tick, sometimes a middle tick at the start, sometimes a middle tick in the middle, sometimes we'd only get 1 "big" tick, and then 3 ticks that were even bigger.

\Whatever we did we couldnt really find something that accurately explained BoA with haste scaling.
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#314 Calinette

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 04:08 PM

Has there been any extensive testing with BoA after 4.0? It seems to get... for a lack of a better term, weird with haste.

LV80 Naked, no glyph - 4x 114, 4x 207, 4x 298
Lv80 Naked, Glyph of BoA - 4x 114, 4x 207, 4x 298, 2x 389

Lv80 1522 Haste, No glyph - 1x 759, 6x 659, 5x 759, 1x 861, 5x 1011
Lv80 1522 Haste, Glyph of BoA - 6x 659, 5x 759, 1x 861, 5x 1011, 1x 1162, 2x 1363

Lv80 1522 Haste, No Glyph, Eradication - 1x 659, 5x 608, 1x 659, 6x 759, 1x 861, 6x 1011
LV80 1522 Haste, Glyph of BoA, Eradication - 1x 759, 1x 659, 6x 608, 1x 659, 6x 759, 1x 861, 6x 1011, 1x 1162, 2x 1363


Interesting data Mystearica. Thanks to you and Warlocomotif (and others) for doing the research on BoA behavior. Do you know what your spellpower value was during the test?

#315 Burberri

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 04:28 PM

Glyphs of Immo and Incin both better than Glyph of FG? That's a surprise to me, but I guess Glyph of FG is no longer a straight +AP. I'll check out the math/sample runs.

Is gearing for mastery even going to be available in 4.0.1? Thought it was going to be specific to Cata itemization. I guess with reforging.

Personally I'd opt for 2/2 in Aura of Foreboding over 2/2 in Master Summoner - while the mana saved due to 100% reduction in demon cost will open up at least 1 GCD in the case a demon goes down, the root effect will keep mobs in AoE a bit longer. I fully expect some tanks to not enjoy the root, but recent blue posts have indicated that tanks in Cata are not expected to maintain full aggro on actual AoE packs - so a root and potential stun will help keep the party alive.




You can "gear" for mastery in the sense you can reforge it onto your gear for a rather sizable amount. I think its about 450-550 mastery rating if you do every piece of gear. The 4.0 sims in their current state anyway (not near being done) has haste being better than mastery but mastery better than crit. My own personal testing seems to confirm this for destro and sb-affliction. And was inconclusive for DL-affliction and demon.

Aura of Foreboding seems like a very bad idea in a raid environment. Rooting mobs leads them to attack the nearest target not the highest threat target. You could definitely kill some melee.

#316 Calidus

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 04:45 PM

Affliction will get the added bonus of SB:SoC. Demo will have meta -> Immolation aura-> hell fire. Destro will have rain of fire, but Soul Burn might make things every interesting with the ability to get 3 soul shards(which translate into 3 instant soul fires) almost every time an add dies. The other interesting thing would be to Bane of Havoc a boss while rain of firing adds. I was wondering if anyone had done testing and had information on the AoE abilities.

#317 Mystearica

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 08:47 PM

Interesting data Mystearica. Thanks to you and Warlocomotif (and others) for doing the research on BoA behavior. Do you know what your spellpower value was during the test?


Naked just had the 8 mastery from training.
Geared:
3594 SP
14.84 Mastery (314 rating +8)
46.42% Haste (1522 rating)
No CoE
No Buffs

The damage of the ticks sometimes varied by 1dmg, like the low ticks would either tick for 658 or 659.

With the Chaotic Meta, crit damage seemed to be around a 2.055ish range.
Glyphed:
658/659 - 1353
759/760 - 1560
860 - 1767
1011/1012 - 2078/2079
1163 - 2389
1364 - 2803

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#318 Keldion

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 02:24 AM

Naked just had the 8 mastery from training.
Geared:
3594 SP
14.84 Mastery (314 rating +8)
46.42% Haste (1522 rating)
No CoE
No Buffs

The damage of the ticks sometimes varied by 1dmg, like the low ticks would either tick for 658 or 659.

With the Chaotic Meta, crit damage seemed to be around a 2.055ish range.
Glyphed:
658/659 - 1353
759/760 - 1560
860 - 1767
1011/1012 - 2078/2079
1163 - 2389
1364 - 2803


The 2.055ish crits is a result of the crit damage bonus talents being hardboiled into mages and warlocks. Our inherent critical damage bonus with spells is now 1 / 100% 1.5 * 1.33 = 199.5%, as opposed to healers whose critical bonus with spells is 0.5 / 50%. Assuming an active Chaotic meta, mage/lock crits now are 206% 205.485%, down from 209%. The hybrid caster DPS classes will still crit at 209% as their respective crit damage bonus is featured as a passive ability in the associated talent tree.

Binkenstein mathed the method in which dots add in additional ticks based on spell haste at TotemSpot. Of particular note is the fact that the game rounds the bonus ticks up or down instead of flooring them. Bane of Agony ticks average to 130 + (Spellpower * 0.1) at 0% haste before passives and masteries. We should question the extra ticks' purpose instead of their extreme variance, such as maintaining an overall average damage while keeping consistent with the spell's description/flavor.

With Mystearica's posted stats, we could expect the following:
Average tick damage: 759.27
Tickspeed at 1522 haste: 1.365965s
Tickspeed at 1522 haste + Eradication: 1.138305s

Pitting those against her results, we see the following.
Example 1) 24/1.365965 = 17.5699 [18] extra ticks, sum 13413, average 763.40 [745.16]
Example 2) 28/1.365965 = 20.4983 [20] extra ticks, sum 16190, average 789.82 [809.5]
Example 3) 24/1.138305 = 21.08398 [21] extra ticks, sum 15839, average 751.23 [754.24]
Example 4) 28/1.138305 = 24.59798 [25] extra ticks, sum 21094, average 857.55 [843.76]

EDIT: I felt obligated to resume a post that I had been working upon this morning regarding BoA and combined it together with the first paragraph.

#319 Skellum

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 07:21 PM

Affliction will get the added bonus of SB:SoC. Demo will have meta -> Immolation aura-> hell fire. Destro will have rain of fire, but Soul Burn might make things every interesting with the ability to get 3 soul shards(which translate into 3 instant soul fires) almost every time an add dies. The other interesting thing would be to Bane of Havoc a boss while rain of firing adds. I was wondering if anyone had done testing and had information on the AoE abilities.


Casting Bane of Havok on a Targetting dummy apart from the others while seeding/RoF/Hellfire seems to result in only 1 tic of the AoE affecting BoH.
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#320 matornot

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 11:44 PM

Casting Bane of Havok on a Targetting dummy apart from the others while seeding/RoF/Hellfire seems to result in only 1 tic of the AoE affecting BoH.

I just tested this and it seems to work correctly now . I used BoH on one dummy, then I used RoF on two dummies far away from the first dummy and the BoH target was getting 2 ticks of BoH per RoF tick. This is important for Destro locks on Sindragosa because BoH can do massive damage to Sindy during air phases if you AoE the frost tombs.




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